Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

rockedge wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:38 pm

If Fossapup64 booting from CD/DVD finds a save folder, save file or component on any connected partition that fits the Fossapup64 profile, that will be used during the boot.

And if the CD boot fails, wouldnt the BIOs go down the boot order list until it finds a bootable install?

One needs to identify the which install is actually booting and verify its integrity
then
identify which save it is finding

rockedge wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:38 pm

So this issue is a persistent one. If I had the expertise to fix it, I would do it myself and release the fixed Puppy version.

You have me confused. Puppy Linux is designed to look for certain files existence across the partitions (drives) attached to that machine. If Fossapup64 booting from CD/DVD finds a save folder or save file on any connected partition that fits the Fossapup64 profile, that will be used during the boot.

I don't understand why any programmer would design a boot process that way. Why not do this: Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use. If it is done like this, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And the full path to each file should always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason. I think of how great it would be to make the OS user-friendly.

If NO files or components are on any partitions, then just those found on the CD will be used. So of course remove any Puppy Linux files and start clean.

That is completely unexpected behavior, and also illogical. When I boot an OS from a CD, I expect the OS to darn well boot from the CD, not from some other drive location without my consent or knowledge (and which I may know absolutely nothing about).

You must have attempted some type of installation to have components of Fosspup64 floating around the partitions. What have you tried?

Sure, I have made several unsuccessful attempts to do a persistent Puppy install to the internal drive, and I have created several savefiles and savefolders, and these save attempts were also unsuccessful. Well, they were successfully saved, but I was not able to use them when booting. When I make a save, I naturally expect the OS to use that save on the next boot, I mean that IS the entire point of making the save in the first place. Anything else is illogical. If there are other possibilities, then I must be presented with a choice. Nothing else makes sense.
Thanks!

What I really need now is a boot menu where I can choose myself exactly which boot files or configuration to boot from, every single time. I don't want the OS to boot from an unknown location without my consent.
Can I get help to do that? I don't ever again want to be in a boot situation where I have no control, and have to work in RAM-only mode for over one year because I can't re-boot the computer without starting from scratch. Ok, so far, the Airedale thumb drive seems to retain the settings (at least so far it has retained the HOSTS file I made). But I need to work in Puppy at least until I can determine if Airedale is for me or not. I am much more comfortable with Puppy right now, despite its shortcomings.

Your inability to get a ISO or CD to boot and use the previous save folder or file is puzzling. Puppy Linux was designed to work in many ways but what you describe is among the most used methods of running Fossapup64, and the basic operation is pretty much cut and dry.

There are definite reasons why Puppy Linux has options to boot in these different modes.

Most distros require the usage of at least one full partition all too itself to operate, so when you think about the amount of scenarios the designers encounter when assembling an OS that can be fully functional in a sub-directory on just about any kind of formatted partition on most types of storage medium, one can begin to see the difficulties in remaining completely dynamic and flexible in every one of those use cases.

When I make a save, I naturally expect the OS to use that save on the next boot,

Typically that happens, unless one locates the save outside the searched paths.

What I really need now is a boot menu where I can choose myself exactly which boot files or configuration to boot from, every single time. I don't want the OS to boot from an unknown location without my consent.
Can I get help to do that? I don't ever again want to be in a boot situation where I have no control,

Yes, see
viewtopic.php?t=5484

both the main sfs's and the saves can placed in custom locations......

It is recommended that a pupsfs=<partition> always be specified.
This enables init to go straight to that partition to find the Puppy files
instead of searching through all partitions looking for puppy...sfs.

where your grub stanza pupsfs= parameter should look something like

example: pupsfs=sdb2:/puppy/precise/puppy_precise_5.7.1.sfs

and for your saves.........

Specifying psave=<partition> can be quite useful in directing all save layers to a different partition.

where your grub stanza psave= parameter should look something like

example: psave=sdb4:/lxpupsc/mysave says that the savefolder is on the sdb4 partition
in the "/lxpupsc" directory, named "mysave".

When I decided to try Puppy, I had problems getting it persistent on the internal drive, so I decided to put the OS on a closed CD, so nothing could possibly go wrong.
My laptop does not have a CD/DVD unit, so I used a USB CD/DVD unit.
I followed instructions and got Puppy onto the CD.
I booted into the BIOS menu and made sure the CD was listed first.

So, I had the boot CD ready and the BIOS set to boot from the CD. All set, and ready to go.
I boot from the CD, but unbeknownst to me, the OS decides in mid-boot to switch to an entirely different media and boot from there instead.
So actually, for an entire year I have been booting from a place unknown on a different media, and not from the CD which I boot from.
This is a Microsoft Level Deception!

Come on guys, this is a wake-up call. In what universe does this make any sense.

I truly appreciate everyone's help, and I understand now that there are complicated (for Joe User) workarounds available to solve this issue, but how about eliminating the issue instead? And what about my closed CD, will I need to burn another CD with corrections? Suppose I have a friend using fossapup64_9.5, and he has a problem with his installation. If I lend him my Puppy boot CD, he will get nowhere because he will just be booting into the same installation as before and not from the CD. What about people all over the world who might burn a CD from the Puppy .iso and attempt to boot from it? Most of those people will likely move on to a different distro and not access this forum, so their voices will not be heard. I am speaking for them too.

Why not do this: Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use. If it is done like this, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And the full path to each file should always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason. I think of how great it would be to make the OS user-friendly.

williwaw wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:03 am

When I make a save, I naturally expect the OS to use that save on the next boot,

Typically that happens, unless one locates the save outside the searched paths.

What I really need now is a boot menu where I can choose myself exactly which boot files or configuration to boot from, every single time. I don't want the OS to boot from an unknown location without my consent.
Can I get help to do that? I don't ever again want to be in a boot situation where I have no control,

Yes, see
viewtopic.php?t=5484

both the main sfs's and the saves can placed in custom locations......

It is recommended that a pupsfs=<partition> always be specified.
This enables init to go straight to that partition to find the Puppy files
instead of searching through all partitions looking for puppy...sfs.

where your grub stanza pupsfs= parameter should look something like

example: pupsfs=sdb2:/puppy/precise/puppy_precise_5.7.1.sfs

and for your saves.........

Specifying psave=<partition> can be quite useful in directing all save layers to a different partition.

where your grub stanza psave= parameter should look something like

example: psave=sdb4:/lxpupsc/mysave says that the savefolder is on the sdb4 partition
in the "/lxpupsc" directory, named "mysave".

@williwaw / @rockedge :-

Hm. Interesting info about the "pupsfs" parameter. I wasn't aware of that one until now.

Question, guys.....to satisfy my curiosity, like?

If "psubdir" is already in use - as in my case - is the "pupsfs" parameter needed? Don't these two perform the same sort of function (just in slightly different ways)?

TIA.

Mike.

williwaw wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 7:01 pm

rockedge wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 6:38 pm

If Fossapup64 booting from CD/DVD finds a save folder, save file or component on any connected partition that fits the Fossapup64 profile, that will be used during the boot.

And if the CD boot fails, wouldnt the BIOs go down the boot order list until it finds a bootable install?

One needs to identify the which install is actually booting and verify its integrity
then
identify which save it is finding

In my case, the CD boot is not failing, it is the OS deciding by itself to boot from a different media.

Governor wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:53 pm

In my case, the CD boot is not failing, it is the OS deciding by itself to boot from a different media.

You understand that this statement is an impossiblity, right?

An OS doesn't boot itself, what a pup OS does as it's booting is look for a save to load on top of it's file system structure. It's your bootloader and it's config stanzas that tell you computer where to find a bootable OS and load it's kernel into ram.

If you were to do something like, say boot one OS from one location and then learn how it works, how it loads it's files and what they do, then how to manipulate the boot stanzas for different types of boots and saves for the one OS in it's one location, then you might be able to qualify for a license to configure a second OS or a second save from another location connected to the same machine. But you would still have to pass the licensing exam. So I say might.

And at least then you wouldn't be scheduling so many emergency haircuts with Raul from Colombia.

have you removed the nvme and tried the three cases?

geo_c wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:49 pm

An OS doesn't boot itself

mikewalsh wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 10:38 am

@williwaw / @rockedge :-

Hm. Interesting info about the "pupsfs" parameter. I wasn't aware of that one until now.

Question, guys.....to satisfy my curiosity, like?

If "psubdir" is already in use - as in my case - is the "pupsfs" parameter needed? Don't these two perform the same sort of function (just in slightly different ways)? :?

TIA.

Mike. ;)

Mike,
I dunno, but I know where you could look to see!
I asked a similar Q a while back, and @williams2 posted a good response

viewtopic.php?p=61684#p61684

Bring the equation down to the most simple form: remove all and every device capable of holding a save file or folder including any installed hard drive. THEN and ONLY THEN boot from the CD. What happens now?

Fossil wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:48 am

Bring the equation down to the most simple form: remove all and every device capable of holding a save file or folder including any installed hard drive. THEN and ONLY THEN boot from the CD. What happens now?

Yes, I discovered that the CD actually boots from the ĆD only when I delete ALL PUPPY FILES, on ALL my internal drive, AND disconnect ALL external drives.

Not only is this antithetical to any sense of computer normalcy that I have experienced in the past 30 years, it is antithetical to common sense. When I boot from a CD, naturally I expect to actually boot from the CD, not arbitrarily from a boot configuration on a completely different media! This may seem quite normal for experienced Puppy users, and I understand that this must be considered normal behavior by people in this forum. To me, however, it is a nightmare without parallel in my entire sum of my computing experience. I have written more about my experience with this here: https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 50#p121550

This is what I would do:
Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When all the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use, listing the CD first, of course. If it is done like this, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And they will know where they are booting from!!!
And the full path to each file should always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason.

geo_c wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:49 pm

Governor wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:53 pm

In my case, the CD boot is not failing, it is the OS deciding by itself to boot from a different media.

You understand that this statement is an impossiblity, right?

An OS doesn't boot itself, what a pup OS does as it's booting is look for a save to load on top of it's file system structure. It's your bootloader and it's config stanzas that tell you computer where to find a bootable OS and load it's kernel into ram.

If you were to do something like, say boot one OS from one location and then learn how it works, how it loads it's files and what they do, then how to manipulate the boot stanzas for different types of boots and saves for the one OS in it's one location, then you might be able to qualify for a license to configure a second OS or a second save from another location connected to the same machine. But you would still have to pass the licensing exam. So I say might.

And at least then you wouldn't be scheduling so many emergency haircuts with Raul from Colombia.

@geo_c
You have entered some posts that I found helpful, and I am grateful for that.
On the other hand, you can be denigrating, mocking, arrogant, and condescending. This is certainly not helpful to anyone, not even yourself.
Frankly, if I was a moderator, you would have gotten at least 2 warnings by now.

BTW, If you are interested in internet security, you might want to learn about the HOSTS file.
https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 88#p121288

I don't know about the hosts file, never used that, tell me where it is and I'll look at it.

williwaw wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 10:10 pm

have you removed the nvme and tried the three cases?

640px-UEFI_boot_process.png

Legacy_BIOS_boot_process_fixed (2).png

Yes, I discovered that the CD actually boots from the ĆD, but only when I delete ALL PUPPY FILES, on ALL my internal drive, AND disconnect ALL external drives.

Not only is this antithetical to any sense of computer normalcy that I have experienced in the past 30 years, it is antithetical to common sense. When I boot from a CD, naturally I expect to actually boot from the CD, not arbitrarily from a boot configuration on a completely different media!!! This may seem quite normal for experienced Puppy users, and I understand that this must be considered normal behavior by people in this forum. To me, however, it is a nightmare without parallel in my entire sum of my computing experience. I have written more about my experience with this here: hhttps://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?p=121550#p121550

This is what I would do:
Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When all the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use, listing the CD first, of course. If it is done like this, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And they will know where they are booting from!!!
And the full path to each file should always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason.

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:05 am

geo_c wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 5:49 pm

Governor wrote: Sun Jun 02, 2024 12:53 pm

In my case, the CD boot is not failing, it is the OS deciding by itself to boot from a different media.

You understand that this statement is an impossiblity, right?

An OS doesn't boot itself, what a pup OS does as it's booting is look for a save to load on top of it's file system structure. It's your bootloader and it's config stanzas that tell you computer where to find a bootable OS and load it's kernel into ram.

If you were to do something like, say boot one OS from one location and then learn how it works, how it loads it's files and what they do, then how to manipulate the boot stanzas for different types of boots and saves for the one OS in it's one location, then you might be able to qualify for a license to configure a second OS or a second save from another location connected to the same machine. But you would still have to pass the licensing exam. So I say might.

And at least then you wouldn't be scheduling so many emergency haircuts with Raul from Colombia.

@geo_c
You have entered some posts that I found helpful, and I am grateful for that.
On the other hand, you can be denigrating, mocking, arrogant, and condescending. This is certainly not helpful to anyone, including yourself.
Frankly, if I was a moderator, you would have gotten at least 1 warning by now.

geo_c wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:49 am

I don't know about the hosts file, never used that, tell me where it is and I'll look at it.

BTW, If you are interested in internet security, you might want to learn about the HOSTS file on-line. It should be in the /etc/ folder.

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:08 am

Yes, I discovered that the CD actually boots from the ĆD, but only when I delete ALL PUPPY FILES, on ALL my internal drive, AND disconnect ALL external drives.

Yes, this is correct, but you're exaggerating. It's "OR" and not "AND".

Not only is this antithetical to any sense of computer normalcy that I have experienced in the past 30 years, it is antithetical to common sense. When I boot from a CD, naturally I expect to actually boot from the CD, not arbitrarily from a boot configuration on a completely different media!!! This may seem quite normal for experienced Puppy users, and I understand that this must be considered normal behavior by people in this forum.

It is, indeed, the normal and expected behaviour (for Puppies).

CD is very slow media, and Puppy tries to overcome this slowness by helpfully loading OS files from harddisk if it can find them there. But to be fair, it will only load identical OS files. Says you have Puppy A files located in your disk, and you boot Puppy B from CD, this "improvement" will not happen. Only if you have both Puppy A in disk and in CD then the Puppy will helpfully use the files from disk to accelerate the boot process.

Puppy has behaved like this in the past 20 years or so. Puppies also come with controls to specify where exactly to find its files (pupsfs, pdev1, etc) but if you don't specify these extra parameters, Puppy will fallback to this behaviour.

------

This is, of course, on top of bootloader configuration that you have. If your bootloader configuration says to "search for files and use the first one you can find", well, then exactly which files will be used would be ... rather random

Great info @jamesbond !!!
@Governor
What I always do (and can recommend ) is to create a separate folder for every Puppy, e.g for FossaPup I created (unique = not existing in any other partition) folder "fossap", put the puppy files in there and point to it using e.g. psubdir=fossap on the grub.cfg linux line (and also point to it for vmlinuz and initrd.gz) e.g. :

    linux /fossap/vmlinuz pfix=nocopy,fsck pmedia=atahd psubdir=fossap
    initrd /fossap/initrd.gz

Or slightly different when using grub4dos in menu.lst :

    kernel /fossap/vmlinuz pfix=nocopy,fsck pmedia=atahd psubdir=fossap
    initrd /fossap/initrd.gz

Then, I guess, no such 'conflicting' or 'confusing' situations as you described can happen.

jamesbond wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:56 pm

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:08 am

Yes, I discovered that the CD actually boots from the ĆD, but only when I delete ALL PUPPY FILES, on ALL my internal drive, AND disconnect ALL external drives.

Yes, this is correct, but you're exaggerating. It's "OR" and not "AND".

Not only is this antithetical to any sense of computer normalcy that I have experienced in the past 30 years, it is antithetical to common sense. When I boot from a CD, naturally I expect to actually boot from the CD, not arbitrarily from a boot configuration on a completely different media!!! This may seem quite normal for experienced Puppy users, and I understand that this must be considered normal behavior by people in this forum.

It is, indeed, the normal and expected behaviour (for Puppies).

CD is very slow media, and Puppy tries to overcome this slowness by helpfully loading OS files from harddisk if it can find them there. But to be fair, it will only load identical OS files. Says you have Puppy A files located in your disk, and you boot Puppy B from CD, this "improvement" will not happen. Only if you have both Puppy A in disk and in CD then the Puppy will helpfully use the files from disk to accelerate the boot process.

Puppy has behaved like this in the past 20 years or so. Puppies also come with controls to specify where exactly to find its files (pupsfs, pdev1, etc) but if you don't specify these extra parameters, Puppy will fallback to this behaviour.

------

This is, of course, on top of bootloader configuration that you have. If your bootloader configuration says to "search for files and use the first one you can find", well, then exactly which files will be used would be ... rather random

Suppose I want to boot from the CD instead of another installation on the hdd, or suppose there are different configurations of the same OS that I want to choose between.
Why is there not a multiple choice allowing me to choose where I want to boot from? This would be easy for any decent programmer to implement.

I downloaded the fossapup64-9.5.iso and burned it to a CD. I closed the CD for further writes, in order to avoid problems or accidents. I booted from the CD, and tried many times to create save folders and save files, different places, but was never able to re-boot with my saved configuration. For about one year, I booted from the CD in RAM-only mode in order to avoid using the slow CD media, and to free up a USB slot. I set the BIOS to boot from the CD and the CD is the official Puppy version placed on CD according to instructions. So what could go wrong? All this time, I believed the OS was booting from the CD. That is what I thought until just a few days ago, when I found out that for around one year, I have never actually been booting from the CD, but from a partition on my internal drive!!! I have been working so hard to get Puppy to work properly and all this time I have been chasing a ghost.

Why is there not a multiple choice allowing me to choose where I want to boot from? This would be easy for any decent programmer to implement.

Governor wrote:

I have been working so hard to get Puppy to work properly and all this time I have been chasing a ghost.

That's bad, but the sun is always shining behind the clouds (or whatever ), I'd say start fresh, new life !!, with setting up your linux OS's one by one, why not.
edit; btw, just one linux of your choice installed could be good enough.

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:05 am

@geo_c
You have entered some posts that I found helpful, and I am grateful for that.

That's because any post of yours I read, I read closely, take the time to think about what is actually going on in your setup, and offer sound advice. I told you when you first joined this forum, that you can't boot from a CD and have saves everywhere attached to your system and be expected to keep them straight, especially if you don't take the time to understand how it's supposed to work, which to date you have not done. I also told you to run one OS from USB until you get the hang of it and test it on your hardware before attempting to hook up 5 drives in two USB hubs and boot from CD.

Nobody on this forum knows your system as well me.

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:05 am

On the other hand, you can be denigrating, mocking, arrogant, and condescending. This is certainly not helpful to anyone, not even yourself.
Frankly, if I was a moderator, you would have gotten at least 2 warnings by now.

Let's examine that statement for a second. Instead of taking advice from those who have spent countless hours of their valuable time offering you help, you have chosen to say that "there are bugs" and "this OS defies all common sense" and "Puppy-linux is a continual beta" and "what should be done is {INSERT YOUR UNREASONABLE REQUEST HERE]."

You ignore the fact that if you go through the history below carefully, like I have done, because I do my homework, seek to understand what I don't know, and don't go around making assertions that are accusatory and disrespectful to OS and applications creators, you'll see a very clear picture emerge of what the actual "bugs' you're dealing with are.

The statements you have habitually made strike me as far more arrogant and condescending than anything I have said, (the worst I said was something like, "I consider your constant claiming of bugs to be more or less trolling," perhaps that's a hard edged opinion, but I'm not calling you names.

How about your haircut analogy? What you are saying there is it's unreasonable for forum members to point out that your actions are causing your system anomolies, when you feel it's their incompetence that's the cause. I don't know, I would find that rather insulting if I was the creator of the code. In response I have also shared a real life haircut analogy, and it's very appropriate to your situation. If that gets me booted or warned so be it. You won't see me getting involved in flame wars, I have far too much serious life business going for that.

So I suggest that you search through your posts, which I have compiled for you, to find your much needed answers which have been addressed multiple times, and if you can't seem to find those answers for whatever reason, at least comprehend the reality that I and others have spent enormous amounts of resources to help you deal with your very tenuous hardware and software arrangement. I know exactly what's wrong with your system and I can help you fix it. But you will have to listen to me and be humble. Sorry. That's just the way it is. You won't see me telling @fredx181 or @dimkr or @rockedge or @mikewalsh how their offerings are "not working as advertised.' Even when something does need to be addressed you'll notice that I always question my own actions and system setup first. Try it sometime and you will get a lot more done. Careful consideration of these posts could help you ascertain just how your tone comes across in print :

EDUCATIONAL READING - not up to date as of a month ago.
viewtopic.php?p=118162#p118162
(quirky Brave Browser creates an empty profile folder)

viewtopic.php?p=118053#p118053
(copied from fat32, probably has broken links)

viewtopic.php?t=11353
(Brave update, "not exactly as intended")

viewtopic.php?t=11194
(bug in rox)

viewtopic.php?t=9681
(bug n kyboard settings module)

viewtopic.php?p=114949#p114949
(desktop went black)

viewtopic.php?t=9684
(usb ports incrementing)

viewtopic.php?p=115418#p115418
(save iso as a workaround to a regular save)

viewtopic.php?p=115036#p115036
(descriptiom of save failure)

viewtopic.php?p=114096#p114096
(Brave portable not portable)

viewtopic.php?p=114499#p114499
(Brave portable)

viewtopic.php?t=10968
(USB gone w/sleep issue?)

viewtopic.php?p=113799#p113799
(nvme drive)

viewtopic.php?t=10675
(headphones working now?)

viewtopic.php?p=109747#p109747
(Brave's been been buggy for awhile)

viewtopic.php?p=108174#p108174
(actual software issue with Limine, as can be ascertained by the other posters: GOOD FIND @Governor )

viewtopic.php?p=100374#p100374
(once had a working savefile that maxed out the capacity)

viewtopic.php?t=9582
(can't make a save, running from ram)

viewtopic.php?p=98452#p98452
(puppy-linux is a perpetual beta)

viewtopic.php?p=98192#p98192
(bigpup isn't subtle)

viewtopic.php?p=97997#p97997
(fixed his own issue, no idea how)

viewtopic.php?p=97922#p97922
(no known method to save configuration)

viewtopic.php?p=77666#p77666
(trying to boot Easy, wiak comments)

viewtopic.php?p=76839#p76839
(don't bother anwering other's follow up questions when you got what you wanted)

viewtopic.php?p=76709#p76709
(copying to fat32 is not an OS problem)

viewtopic.php?p=76021#p76021
(windows must be a perpetual beta also)

viewtopic.php?p=76959#p76959
(puppy can run from a save-FILE on fat32)

viewtopic.php?p=76021#p76021
(nothing wrong with the filesystem), MAYBE fossapaup64_9.5 can't read nvme? ANOTHER valid find @Governor , more of these)

viewtopic.php?p=75671#p75671
(We don't read no stinking instructions)

viewtopic.php?p=75378#p75378
(OS#1 does not work, am I right?)

viewtopic.php?t=7354
(early questions about fossapup)

viewtopic.php?p=73782#p73782
(fatal programming flaw)

fredx181 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 3:18 pm

Great info @jamesbond !!!
@Governor
What I always do (and can recommend ) is to create a separate folder for every Puppy, e.g for FossaPup I created (unique = not existing in any other partition) folder "fossap", put the puppy files in there and point to it using e.g. psubdir=fossap on the grub.cfg linux line (and also point to it for vmlinuz and initrd.gz) e.g. :

Code: Select all

    linux /fossap/vmlinuz pfix=nocopy,fsck pmedia=atahd psubdir=fossap
    initrd /fossap/initrd.gz

Or slightly different when using grub4dos in menu.lst :

Code: Select all

    kernel /fossap/vmlinuz pfix=nocopy,fsck pmedia=atahd psubdir=fossap
    initrd /fossap/initrd.gz

Then, I guess, no such 'conflicting' or 'confusing' situations as you described can happen.

Thanks. But what is a guy supposed to do when he is a former Windows user, new to Linux and trying to get a stable working computer environment. I did what many people would do; burn the OS to a CD and boot it, and naturally believe I am booting from the CD.

I understand that fossapup64-9.5 is looking for compatible boot files.
Suppose I really want to boot from the CD instead of another installation on the hdd, or suppose there are different configurations of the same OS that I want to choose between. Why is there not a multiple choice allowing me to choose where I want to boot from? This would be easy for any decent programmer to implement.

This is what I would do:
Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When all the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use, listing the CD first, of course. If this is done, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And they will know where they are booting from!!! The full path to each file would always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason.

fredx181 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:55 pm

Governor wrote:

I have been working so hard to get Puppy to work properly and all this time I have been chasing a ghost.

That's bad, but the sun is always shining behind the clouds (or whatever ), I'd say start fresh, new life !!, with setting up your linux OS's one by one, why not.
edit; btw, just one linux of your choice installed could be good enough.

I got Airedale working from a thumb drive, and I believe it is saving all of my settings, but I have not completely confirmed this yet. The HOSTS file I created came back again, so that is a good sign. However, I am not sure if I can get used to Airedale. Plus, three of the portable apps I use don't work: Audacity, Brave, and VLC. And I get along much better with fossapup. I will try and create a thumb drive with fossapup the way I did with Airedale and see if that works.

Governor wrote:

And I get along much better with fossapup. I will try and create a thumb drive with fossapup the way I did with Airedale and see if that works.

Yes, install on a Linux partition e.g. ext4 or ext3 and at first time shutdown prompting about save, choose the (recommended) save storage (folder) on that same partition and it should be fine.

@Governor :-

One point (now I think about it).

You've mentioned many times about booting from a CD, and running totally in RAM for days at a time because you can't save anything. Now; this is going back to the early days of Puppy, I know.......but if you were to use a DVD (NOT a CD), and burn the disc "open" - as opposed to "closed" - then you can save back to the DVD itself, until you run out of space. Then you create a new DVD, using the Puppy OS AND the final 'save' from the previous disc, and carry on.

It does work. I have a Fossapup DVD set-up in this way, simply because somebody else claimed it couldn't be done......and it works on a friend's elderly Dell desktop, because his BIOS is too old to "see" modern USB drives as the USB-HDDs that their firmware claims them to be..!!!

Up to you, of course. It's yet another option......and when all is said & done, we ARE trying to help you, despite what you may believe!

Mike.

but I have not completely confirmed this yet

If it's running it's saving unless you have added a parameter in the kernel command line not too.

There are 3 modes of operation...
1. unless specified KLV saves all persistence automatically in /upper_changes
2. RAM2 which allows the user to save on demand or choose to save at system reboot or shutdown also written to /upper_changes
3. RAM0 which loads no persistence and does not save. So fresh system after each boot

If you installed it and the boot stanza that starts it doesn't have a w_changes=RAM0 or the parameter w_changes=RAM2 on the kernel command line it should be saving everything as you go.

It is possible to use normal mode (#1) some of the time and then use RAM2 mode (#2) after that to select when to save a session again.

mikewalsh wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:34 pm

@Governor :-

One point (now I think about it).

You've mentioned many times about booting from a CD, and running totally in RAM for days at a time because you can't save anything. Now; this is going back to the early days of Puppy, I know.......but if you were to use a DVD (NOT a CD), and burn the disc "open" - as opposed to "closed" - then you can save back to the DVD itself, until you run out of space. Then you create a new DVD, using the Puppy OS AND the final 'save' from the previous disc, and carry on.

It does work. I have a Fossapup DVD set-up in this way, simply because somebody else claimed it couldn't be done......and it works on a friend's elderly Dell desktop, because his BIOS is too old to "see" modern USB drives as the USB-HDDs that their firmware claims them to be..!!!

Up to you, of course. It's yet another option......and when all is said & done, we ARE trying to help you, despite what you may believe!

Mike.

Yeah, let's make things even more complicated for @Governor !

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:57 am

Fossil wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:48 am

Bring the equation down to the most simple form: remove all and every device capable of holding a save file or folder including any installed hard drive. THEN and ONLY THEN boot from the CD. What happens now?

Yes, I discovered that the CD actually boots from the ĆD only when I delete ALL PUPPY FILES, on ALL my internal drive, AND disconnect ALL external drives.

So all your problems are fixed now?

rockedge wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:35 pm

but I have not completely confirmed this yet

If it's running it's saving unless you have added a parameter in the kernel command line not too.

He is running without any w_changes= parameters, if he used the stanzas I gave him taking out w_changes=RAM2, so as fred, you, and I told him earlier in this thread, ALL of his changes are being saved, (unless of course it's some file that normally gets rewritten at boot time.)

fredx181 wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:46 pm

mikewalsh wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:34 pm

@Governor :-

One point (now I think about it).

You've mentioned many times about booting from a CD, and running totally in RAM for days at a time because you can't save anything. Now; this is going back to the early days of Puppy, I know.......but if you were to use a DVD (NOT a CD), and burn the disc "open" - as opposed to "closed" - then you can save back to the DVD itself, until you run out of space. Then you create a new DVD, using the Puppy OS AND the final 'save' from the previous disc, and carry on.

It does work. I have a Fossapup DVD set-up in this way, simply because somebody else claimed it couldn't be done......and it works on a friend's elderly Dell desktop, because his BIOS is too old to "see" modern USB drives as the USB-HDDs that their firmware claims them to be..!!!

Up to you, of course. It's yet another option......and when all is said & done, we ARE trying to help you, despite what you may believe!

Mike.

Yeah, let's make things even more complicated for @Governor !

^^^ Lololol!!!

Well, I thought I'd just throw it out there, like....

He seems to LIKE it that way.......y'know?

Mike.

Governor wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 5:05 pm

This is what I would do:
Give the user a multiple choice of which partitions to look for configuration files on. When all the configuration files are found, offer a multiple choice of which configuration to use, listing the CD first, of course. If this is done, anyone can use the process of elimination to find which configuration works, if any. And they will know where they are booting from!!! The full path to each file would always be shown, in case they need to write it down and type it at the command line for some reason.

You've said this many, many times now.

This choice you want has to be configured in the bootloader, NOT in the OS. If you use a puppy tool (like grub4dos, or grub2config) to install and configure a bootloader on a drive, and you want to be able to choose from a bunch of different OS installs to boot, then at the time of installing the bootloader, you would have to have every bootable OS partition attached so the tool could find it. But it will only find what you have installed on the drives at that point in time, not anytime after.

The way to do what you want is to edit the bootloader config in a text editor to suit your special setup, not rely on a tool to find and write boot stanzas for all kinds of drives and locations that it may or may not be able to see.

So you keep asking for a total impossibility. I could be wrong, and if I am, I'm sure someone will point it out, and I will stand corrected.

In terms of the save file, Puppy finds save files where the menu.lst tells it to, or it searches for them, and in the case of the CD it looks everywhere it can because it's obviously not going to be on the CD itself since it can't be written to, and there's no way to configure it's bootloader to your specifications since you can't write to it.

The CD boot is an ancient piece of boot technology anyway, mostly designed to get started with a clean boot and install the OS properly where you could make a save file on writeable media in an easily/dependably accessible location.