AUDIO is missing when PC is connected HDMI

[Clarity]

Several of my PCs are connected HDMI to its source-monitor. Much progress is currently made across the forum in both Wayland and Pipewire now present in forum distros.

There may not be a way for development to detect at boot time this occurrence, currently in forum distros.

BUT, its coming and its NOT the future...It is now.

Should development start to consider how to auto-detect and use the HDMI for BOTH video AND SOUND? Today, video in both the PC Post and the OS is OK for forum distros. But audio, OOTB, is missing.

This post intends to draw attention to an area that may not have been noticed, thus far. If it is connected via HDMI, there is sound and it should be used instead of the OLD method of defaulting to a sound card. User acceptance would increase with this simple automation.

Just a thought for those who know how this is done.

[Grey]

But audio, OOTB, is missing.

This is not a bug (we are in the section about bugs). This is a "missing feature" In which "big distro" (and with which audio subsystem) have you seen such a feature? I understood that you have sound, but need to manually switch the sound output.

[Grey]

@Clarity Well, the simplest thing. Even ancient motherboards have a BIOS function to disable the built-in sound card. If you don't have a PCI card, then just disable the built-in one. And the OS will be forced to use the remaining option - HDMI. And headphones and speakers can be connected to the TV, no problem (monitor with built-in sound also has outputs-inputs).

[bigpup]

Well, I have 6 different ways that could supply sound output on my computer.

How do you expect the operating system to guess at which one I want to use?

And if I was using HDMI connection to monitor.
I do not want sound from it.
I use a headset and it is connected directly to the output of the internal sound card.
So I would still need to setup sound settings.

So setup of the correct sound device to use is part of the very first startup.
Just like other basic setup settings done on first boot.
Saved to use from now on.

Screenshot.jpg (24.17 KiB) Viewed 942 times

[Grey]

So setup of the correct sound device to use is part of the very first startup.
Just like other basic setup settings done on first boot.

@Clarity says in almost every post that he runs ISO images without a file or a save folder. For him, every launch is a "first" And he quite reasonably believes that a modern digital output should be able to determine the connection to the TV/monitor and transfer the sound there. Another thing is that not everyone needs and cares about all this. And the system itself usually chooses a PCI or USB card as the best candidate for the right to be the "main and first".

[Grey]

@bigpup Oh , it seems you have the same "crooked" Samsung monitor in the screenshot as I have. C32F391. What are your impressions about this model?
Are you using the "eye saving mode" or whatever it's called? I'm not.

[bigpup]

I like it!

I am not sure the curved screen makes really that much difference on the viewing of it.
But the wording that may be located on the edges of the screen, do seem to be more of a direct view as apposed to a side view.

I mainly got it, because it was a Black Friday sale item for a very good price. Close to half off.
Plus it is 32 inch screen.

Looking at the specs compared to other Samsung monitors.
It is low down the list, but who cares, as long as to me, the screen display looks Good.

I tried some of the internal eye candy settings, but just use what is really needed for the Nvidia graphics card I have.
I let the graphics card handle the really specific settings and it has a lot of them, if you use a Nvidia driver to run it.

[mikewalsh]

@Grey / @bigpup :-

I haven't investigated usage of HDMI audio. I have the option to use it, since it's a built-in (and available) function of every Nvidia GPU that has an HDMI output, from what I understand. But, as stated, even those that have it don't necessarily WANT to use it.

I appreciate that Clarity would like to use this function. Now, I don't know anything about PipeWire; I've done a quick'n'dirty install of Bookwormpup 64 - which I think uses this - though I haven't as yet booted into it. Isn't there a easy way, using PipeWire, for the user to manually select this after they've booted-up?

I'm "curious" about this too.....to a certain extent.

@Clarity :-

Purely OUT of "curiosity", what's supposed to be the 'advantage' (if one exists) of using HDMI audio? My take on the matter is quite simple; so far as most users are concerned, unless they've got a really good, 'audiophile'-type audio set-up, I doubt many will actually be able to detect any noticeable difference.......in which case, the output will be wasted.

I'm assuming you use a discrete graphics card? Or is this just a built-in function of your particular monitor?

Mike.

[Grey]

I like it!

I have two feelings. On the one hand, if you launch Dead Space using Wine (and I went through the game to the end in Fossapup), then I can even get aesthetic pleasure. But for PDF documents, I sometimes change the settings using the "joystick" at the back of the monitor.
The black color is not quite black because of the backlight. BUT. For this money, the monitor fully fulfills, yes.

I haven't investigated usage of HDMI.

I don't even use HDMI, but DP. But the essence is the same, there is no difference. Just DisplayPort is a little newer.

[Clarity]

ANYONE who uses HDMI knows they are using a TV or similar kind of monitor. Many monitors have speakers.

HDMI and DP ARE EXPRESSLY DESIGNED CARRY VIDEO AND AUDIO.

Why would anyone use a TV/Monitor and NOT expect sound to emerge from it...As such every kid and college student I know EXPECT and USE TVs in their rooms.

So, should we understand this or want understand this, we should see why this thread was created.

My desktop PC(s) have ONLY 2 cables: HDMI and a power cord...like the students. When the Microsoft OSes are started, sound comes out of the TV.

Why do we behave like this is some sort of extravagant phenomenon. Its not. And the manufacturers who make these displays are aware. They design these to be as simple as possible for our use.

Can one change something after the system is UP? YES, ALL of us know this. But, if on an initial install os a PC that has an active HDMI or and active DP, I think its an oversight that PUP developers have overlooked the technology for any initial OOTB experience.

I am hopeful that we are looking at this as a technology advantage and not with disdain because thing have changed.

Its been a decade since DVi-I 24-5, DP, AND HDMI have been around. This is not rocket science as Linux drivers have been around equally as long. But in Puppyland, I BELIEVE this is an oversight to not have taken advantage thus forcing the user to go find utility for what should be an OOTB experience.

I hope my expressing it this way is not upsetting. Many find my post upsetting because it means a of something different.

I am so happy that some developers have embraced Wayland and Pipewire. This is something that fit right in there as well, yet its currently an oversight. I dont feel it is OVERLOOKED, instead, I BELIEVE THIS IS AN OVERSIGHT.

This is NOT a departure. Just questioning why default to a sound card where there is no audio speakers attached???

At least, MS and Apple have realized that, "if there is an active HDMI or DP, there is a sound device there", OOTB.

They are not any smarter than we are. If students notice this, then we can too.

[Grey]

@Clarity I know a lot of young people and married couples who don't buy a TV at all right now. They use a computer or laptop. They say on TV "only shit." This is certainly true, I sometimes turn on the TV with fear and disgust. However, the situation on YouTube is not much better

But you are missing one "small" detail. TVs are not designed specifically for connecting a Linux computer. Yes, it seems that the connection standard is common. But not without nuances. The TV set-top box lets the sound go right where you need it. And the computer's main sound device is a sound card. It is unlikely that everyone will rush to "adapt" to your style of using the system when you have only ISO and there is no folder for saving settings

[dimkr]

I wonder where this conspiracy about the involvement of TV manufacturers in the development of Wayland (the protocol? some extension? some compositor?) or PipeWire comes from, and I don't understand how Wayland is related to the choice of the default audio output.

[Grey]

I wonder
how Wayland is related

But in this case there is nothing surprising. A large group of people are sure that new technologies and subsystems will bring with them new amazing, hitherto unseen opportunities

Meanwhile, there is nothing too fantastic there. If you wrote music in MilkyTracker or drew in Inkscape, then it won't make a difference for you what to use, ALSA and Xorg or Pipewire and Wayland.
Pipewire and Wayland are primarily a feeling or perception. A sense of belonging to a new, amazing world of new opportunities

[Clarity]

@dimkr , that is not a conspiracy of TV/monitor manufacturers and any contributions they have made. Are you aware of LG?

I mention Wayland as it provides desktop (video) support and I mention Pipewire as it provides audio in the latest of mainline linux distro.

I dont understand what you are wanting to infer.

Are YOU saying that you dont see a need to CONSIDER when a user has an HDMI/DP connection, that on a pristine start, audio should NOT be directed there? I dont get you???

This thread is about whether it is a reasonable choice...not who is factually correct as YOU are trying to infer, IMHO.

[TerryH]

My experience is the complete opposite of your experience. On laptops with HDMI connections, sound defaults to HDMI as Card 1. Even if HDMI not used, the internal speakers are not default. Sound has to be directed to the internal speakers.

[dimkr]

@dimkr , that is not a conspiracy of TV/monitor manufacturers and any contributions they have made.

What contributions? Contributions to what?

I mention Wayland as it provides desktop (video) support

Wayland is just a protocol, different desktop environments use it. Puppy doesn't.

audio should NOT be directed there?

If you're asking whether or not PipeWire's default settings need to be changed, this is probably not the right place.

[Grey]

Even if HDMI not used, the internal speakers are not default.

The topic is becoming more and more moving into the detective genre

[Clarity]

Thanks @dimkr for your helpful explanations.

In reverse, I did NOT select this location for placement.

The issue of who/which/manufacturer contributes is mute, as the thread is asking for development consideration. This was brought to my attention when several students in class, trying out Puppy for the first time raised the audio question for guidance. Then they asked the same question I am sharing here. Many of the younger audience will have dorm room set where their monitor is their TV. Others users may come here with real monitors using DP or HDMI.

For a pristine use especially for new users coming from MS/Apple/elsewhere, I think consideration for desktop users whose desktops ONLY have 2 wires attached (all that is necessary for modern PCs to have a full audio/video experience) also applies to this as well.

This is NOT a request to consider bluetooth or anything else. It is merely a request for Puppyland distro developers to consider when the system sees HDMI or DP at pristine...because of the built-in technology.

Just asking development to consider if this is something they want OOTB pristine users to have in their new boot experiences? This, I think some will agree, will make acceptance by newbees a step in the right direction. This eliminates any need for user search-test sequences for any initial audio output.

If you dont think they should or you think this is detrimental, then I hope this is shared. We are NOT talking about seasoned Linux veterans but those who have desktop without wires plugged into sound cards. Is it healthy for OOTB experience if this is available?

Hope this is seen for its benefit.

Dont shoot the messenger!

[dimkr]

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire ... issues/166

[rcrsn51]

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire ... issues/166

Can any mainstream Linux do this OOTB? ie. automatically set HDMI as the default audio output when the HDMI video is active?

[bigpup]

I see the reason you would want it to auto setup sound to go over the HDMI connection.

But I think you are forgetting one thing.

The first time you boot a Puppy version, it is a new operating system running a new computer, that it has never operated.

If the computer has several sources that could provide sound.
How is it going to guess the correct one to use?

Windows OS does nothing automatically the very first time you run a computer with a fresh new install of it
It does the same as Puppy does the first time.
A lot of how do you want these settings done?

It does try to guide you by the hand, on what to do and how to do it.
Example:
With a lot of Welcome to Windows.
I see you have WIFI ability.
Lets set it up so you can use it.

Now, if you are talking about Puppy Linux installed on a computer. All setup to run that computer.
You take the computer and plug it into a monitor with speakers using HDMI connection.

Puppy would probably need something running in the background, always checking for hardware changes, and react to the change.

Something similar to how plugging in a new USB drive, pops up a desktop icon for it.
.

[dimkr]

There is a component for things like this and that's wireplumber.

For implement this in Puppy:
1) Talk to wireplumber developers and either contribute this change or convince somebody else to do that. From what I see, others already discussed something similar and there are open issues, both at the idea level and the implementation level.
2) Wait for a (future) Puppy release that includes PipeWire and a wireplumber version that contains this change, if it ever happens.

[bigpup]

Here is an old post with a script.

Maybe it could work in Puppy Linux

A nice script that does everything you want when you plug a monitor to your HDMI plug: enable the monitor with xrandr, and redirect the sound to the HDMI output.
https://arnaudr.io/2016/09/05/hdmi-autoswitch/

[mikewalsh]

Now, if you are talking about Puppy Linux installed on a computer. All setup to run that computer.
You take the computer and plug it into a monitor with speakers using HDMI connection.

Puppy would probably need something running in the background, always checking for hardware changes, and react to the change.

Something similar to how plugging in a new USB drive, pops up a desktop icon for it.
.

O-kay. Let me play "devil's advocate" just for a bit. Pardon me for saying it, but isn't that what the kernel does? Reacts to hardware changes as & when they happen?

I agree, you would most likely need a script of some kind running to filter out the specific kinds of hardware change you're monitoring for, but.....I guess it should be 'do-able'. I DO think the ultimate move, even if the correct options are offered, would STILL be for the user to manually select that option. Which is what Kirk's MultipleSoundCardWizard already lets you do.

And you're right; on a first run, even if you're already connected to an HDMI-enabled monitor/TV with built-in speakers, there's always going to be multiple items for Puppy to choose from; at least two.....the internal sound card in addition to the HDMI output at the VERY least. How is Puppy supposed to guess that, just because you have an HDMI output available, that this is the specific output the user wants?

I don't think even Windows can read the user's mind in that fashion, much as Clarity appears to believe it can..!

Of course, with the OS already up-and-running, such a move - plugging-in another monitor with HDMI available - it would be far simpler to automate this process.

Mike.

[Clarity]

... If the computer has several sources that could provide sound.
How is it going to guess the correct one to use?...

Thank @bigpup and others.

Your Question
On this question on a pristine boot (which is ONLY what I am presenting in the thread), the system "knows" that it booted with its primary video as HDMI. Thus, the audio should NOT be directed elsewhere.

On subsequent session steps, some users (not students at first) will tailor their desktop usage. If a user chooses to move from their current, knowing that audio is working via the DP monitor, they will. But OOTB, every pristine user will have operational audio should this consideration be adapted.

Nothing new. Just simple decision at pristine boots via either INIT or something in desktop start.

Right now, if a desktop user coming from a MS background with a TV or DP monitor, there is this confusion that can be rectified if we acknowledge the issue.

We not talking about a huge development effort. Is the video over HDMI? "Turn on audio over HDMI." Every pristine user now has complete operational audio-video PC that everyone expects. OOTB.

In the OLD days I grew up in, we didn't have HDMI. Now, even my decades old nVidia has HDMI signaling audio AND video over its wire to the TV.

Again, we're NOT talking about a major development.

[TerryH]

... If the computer has several sources that could provide sound.
How is it going to guess the correct one to use?...

...
On this question on a pristine boot, the system "knows" that it booted with its primary video as HDMI. Thus, the audio should NOT be directed elsewhere.
...

Totally disagree. I have a monitor which I connect a desktop PC via HDMI. The monitor has basic speakers. I don't want to use them. I don't want the sound over HDMI.

[Clarity]

Totally disagree. I have a monitor which I connect a desktop PC via HDMI. The monitor has basic speakers. I don't want to use them. I don't want the sound over HDMI.

Terry we are ONLY addressing HDMI for pristine users no matter if they have speakers, as you do, or not.

If you did NOT have your speakers attached OR if you do NOT have speakers wire to your system and you have a DP/HDMI monitor: NO SOUND IS CAPABLE UNLESS YOU (the user) DO SOMETHING AFTER DISCOVERY. Thus anyone new booting pristine will not, initially, know what's wrong and a hunt must pursue.

I dont think you are advocating for a hunt and I am certainly not advocating to support a continuation for a hunt.

I think I have stated the case as best I can to understand the technology and the reason for a consideration.

Every pristine boot should have sound active, OOTB. This is what one expects with mature OSes. Forum distros are foundational from mature distros, thus this consideration makes sense, IMHO,

Enjoy

[Grey]

@Clarity You are clearly losing election of the governor Most users use a sound card, and only the video part is required from HDMI. Democracy requires subordination of the minority to the majority. The video card and HDMI must also obey this principle.

@dimkr By the way, Happy New Hashanah, if you celebrated

[dimkr]

I dont think you are advocating for a hunt and I am certainly not advocating to support a continuation for a hunt.

But you're still advocating for such a change in the wrong place. You should discuss this in https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire ... r/-/issues (= the component where this can be implemented), not here.

[Clarity]

...advocating for such a change in the wrong place...

A PUP Moderator placed this here. He explained when moved that he felt it a proper location.

Maybe this topic is a difficult discussion. In any event, hope it has reach a location for developers to consider if it has merit.

@Grey This topic is not about cards, its about where audio is sure to be on a pristine boot. If no HDMI, not a concern. If HDMI on pristine, then there audio OOTB there. Not sure if you are advocating for pristine users to hunt when there is no sound at pristine boots. That seems to be the feeling that seasoned experienced users are trying to push here. This is about an OOTB experience on any PC where the HDMI/DP adapter is active in use on new launch (hence 'pristine')

And yes, I do think its something to consider.

(Personally, I dont like students laughing at something that doesn't match MS in there view. As one explains, "There's easier options than an "old" technology like PUPPY". His point is taken and understood. These kids have new systems where even their laptops have HDMI ports. So in their home/dorm rooms they use TV for the same large real-estate reasons I do...except their fonts are smaller )

I wont be hurt if this is not considered. I know how to activate audio manually. I just thought this manual step(s) could be automated for pristine use as it is different depending on forum distro.