Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:18 am

Maybe this topic is a difficult discussion. In any event, hope it has reach a location for developers to consider if it has merit.

You're (stubbornly) barking at the wrong tree. The developers you need to convince of this merit are the wireplumber developers, not Puppy developers.

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:18 am

If HDMI on pristine, then there audio OOTB there.

Not obligatory.
By the way, my Internet search engine displays the first (and only) find with this concept (pristine): https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=4265 Those who search the Internet may think that this is your invention

@dimkr I am NOT being stubborn on this. I DO hear you.

This is a consideration for Puppy Linux. If the developers find this something beneficial for its community, the developers will do what they feel is appropriate.

Even if I make the request, there is no guarantee, the PUP developers will see or include.

You and other developers on GIT understand better than mere users.

No offense, but I think you understand.

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 7:55 am

No offense, but I think you understand.

I understand the problem you're trying to solve (although I believe you represent a minority of users and I'm not sure if the behavior you describe is a sensible default for most users), but I think you don't understand it's futile to (repeatedly) complain about this in the Puppy forum, because PipeWire/wireplumber developers won't see your post: this problem won't go away and you'll keep complaining.

@dimkr does this mean that if they offer the solution, you will implement; especially since we know that HDMI does offer pristine users a simultaneous OOTB video and audio experience? Thereby they have a known working solution no matter any other hardware considerations.

If so, I will pursue it on Puppy Linux's behalf.

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:12 am

@dimkr does this mean that if they offer the solution, you will implement

No, this is not how things work. If your suggestion is implemented in wireplumber (and it won't be, unless you contribute this change or get somebody else to do this, then this change gets merged into wireplumber) and released in wireplumber x.y.z, you will get this behavior in any Puppy with wireplumber >= x.y.z.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:42 am

... will get this behavior in any Puppy with wireplumber >= x.y.z.

Questions

• Is wireplumber >= x.y.z. in OOTB WoofCE PUPs, today?

• And if it is suggested by their team will it be an OOTB solution in WoofCE PUPs for pristine HDMI use?

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:18 am

This topic is not about cards, its about where audio is sure to be on a pristine boot.

You have approached the question incorrectly from the very beginning The conversation is just about sound cards. How do you think the system perceives the presence of the HDMI audio part? Does the system see the Eighth Wonder of the World or is it a cigarette lighter in the car ?

???

Are you asking about hardware presence of HDMI or fanning a fire?

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:57 pm

???

One more time. When you plug the wire into the HDMI connector, the rest of the computer's audio devices do not disappear. Even if nothing is connected to them. The system cannot and should not make decisions of this scale on its own. To do this, the system has you - the user, its master.

Again, this thread is about PCs with HDMI active at start when a forum distro OS is booted pristine. Nothing more.

I'm leaving the topic. I leave a place for someone who wants and who has extra strength

@Grey I think you are missing a key element. Over the HDMI, there is alway audio AND video active to the monitor. This is the point. Its ALWAYS there.

The discussion raises, on pristine distro boot on a PC using HDMI, that WE know audio is there and consideration is asked "shouldn't it be on as the default sound device at boot?" In HDMI and in DP all TVs and many monitors have speakers always active. There remains no confusion ... excepting that, today, audio is overlooked in this case...even though the technology has been around for over a decade.

I dont know if you are willing to see it this way or what ... and is the reason I ask "???".

Lastly, no one here, is denying that IF SPEAKER are also wired to the PC, then a user DOES get audio by default. This technology has been around since before the turn of the century. And it is well understood in Puppyland. As well, in the past, this was the only option and became the default.

But, today, users can come to Puppyland for distros with a PC that ONLY has one cable feed to its monitor which carries audio signaling along with the video signal. In Puppyland, this is overlooked and an oversight.

There is NO guessing. If you see HDMI, then know that there is audio presence in all cases for pristine use. There is no failure in operation.

Is this explained clearly?

P.S. Something tells me you know this, and I may be missing something you know but are not presenting. If that is true help with what you are proposing, please.

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:47 am

dimkr wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2023 8:42 am

... will get this behavior in any Puppy with wireplumber >= x.y.z.

Questions

• Is wireplumber >= x.y.z. in OOTB WoofCE PUPs, today?

• And if it is suggested by their team will it be an OOTB solution in WoofCE PUPs for pristine HDMI use?

The change you describe, if it ever get implemented, needs to be implemented in wireplumber.

If and when it's implemented, the wireplumber team needs to release a new version (let's call it x.y.z) to make this change available for distros.

Then, any distro which includes wireplumber will include your proposed change if wireplumber is new enough (version x.y.z or later).

I have no idea what the phrase "OOTB solution in WoofCE PUPs for pristine HDMI use" means but the answer is probably "it depends".

wireplumber is not part of woof-CE.

woof-CE can build a Puppy with PipeWire and wireplumber.

Not every Puppy is built with PipeWire and wireplumber included.

Moreover, not every Puppy is built with woof-CE, as-is, or built with the latest version.

I've no interest in taking sides about this one way or the other because I have no knowledge about the matter and don't know what upstream teams have decided to make default behaviour.

Out of curiousity, however, I connected my laptop to our TV HDMI socket since I've never done that before, partly because it is a rubbish TV and partly because it is on the other side of the room from my computer desk.

Anyway, HDMI video of my laptop screen, using latest Linux Mint XFCE as full install, popped up fine, but no audio.
I opened pavucontrol and noted the laptop speakers were the default, so clicked on HDMI/DP 1 and sure enough sound then played.

I did a ps aux and noted this Linux Mint is using pipewire, but also noted that it is not using wireplumber.

Nothing else I can say about this except it did prove necessary in Linux Mint to open that pavucontrol and select HDMI/DP 1 in order to get the sound working (via that one HDMI cable connection).

wiak wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:21 am

Nothing else I can say about this except it did prove necessary in Linux Mint to open that pavucontrol and select HDMI/DP 1 in order to get the sound working (via that one HDMI cable connection).

But now I've done another test. Same laptop happens to have windows 10 on it. Sure enough, on boot, that automatically set audio to HDMI audio...

May not be a big deal, but that did somehow feel better to me, so I tend to agree with Clarity on this. Seems Linux may be a bit behind on this one - does it actually 'detect' that HDMI cable is audio active I wonder - maybe it doesn't but simply detects that interface is available? Or maybe upstream feels it is better to have main computer speakers as the default (which is arguable certainly).

However, I also doubt anyone here can do anything about it (I may be wrong) - does seem like upstream pipewire/wireplumber devs maybe?

Maybe the following (ancient post though) is a possible answer though? https://askubuntu.com/questions/263248/ ... disconnect (refer the accepted answer by Salem). Clearly others are concerned about this anyway:

First we need to create a file /etc/udev/rules.d/hdmi_sound.rules with the following content: etc etc etc...

EDIT: Actually there are some very recent answers given in same post so looks like can be done...:

Based on Salem's answer and daniel's answer
I took Salem's answer and daniel's answer and made some necessary changes, their solution didn't worked for me out of the box:

(similar as Salem's answer).

Create a file /etc/udev/rules.d/hdmi_sound.rules as root with the content: etc etc etc...

@Clarity

Do you want to test something?

On the computer you want this auto default sound over HDMI.

Boot the computer with Bookworm Pup64 10.0.2

See if it auto sets up default sound over the HDMI cable.

Why I ask?

I am using display port for connection to my monitor.
I use headphones plugged into the motherboard sound card output port.
I have a Oculus Rift-s hooked up by HDMI that has sound as well as graphics over the HDMI.

Every time I boot Bookworm Pup64.
The output sound is set to come over the HDMI of the Oculus Rift-s

I have to go into the sound preferences output device and select the internal sound card output over line out (plugged in), to get sound over the headphone.
.

bigpup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 11:58 am

@Clarity

Do you want to test something?

On the computer you want this auto default sound over HDMI.

Boot the computer with Bookworm Pup64 10.0.2

See if it auto sets up default sound over the HDMI cable.

I decided to try that since it also gave me an opportunity to re-test installing new iso via my wd_multi script along with grub stanza finder plugin for Puppy distros - why just have one distro install when I can have ten instances each bootable with their own save folder I felt. Anyway, wd_multi 10 worked fine to give me ten bootable Bookworm pups!... that was the good news...

First bad news was that Bookworm Pup wouldn't boot in my newish HP laptop... Not an issue, I just swapped the kernel/modules/firmware over to ones that I new could boot my system. Then Bookworm booted fine; nice looking distro (in fact very nice - only issue I'd have is that I prefer not running most all of the time as root user - on this forum I'm unusual in that sentiment though).

However, I then connected to Internet and used browser to Youtube but, alas, by default, sound just came out of laptop speakers and not my HDMI connected TV. Again, I had to open pavucontrol and select the appropriate HDMP/DP to get sound, so NO I cannot confirm your result bigpup; I can only suggest you must have previously set HDMI as the default audio and that got saved to persistence folder and you have forgotten earlier doing that. Bookworm Pup certainly did not auto-detect the active HDMI cable. MS Windows 10 did.

No, my results are from a fresh new install and first boot of Bookworm Pup64.

I am on a desktop computer.

Was the external TV monitor hooked to the laptop when you booted?

bigpup wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2023 1:44 pm

No, my results are from a fresh new install and first boot of Bookworm Pup64.

I am on a desktop computer.

Was the external TV monitor hooked to the laptop when you booted?

Yes, in fact I dropped this laptop and broke the screen a month or so back so needs hooked up to external.
Perhaps makes default the first interface it finds, which is not what Windows does - it seems to hotplug the HDMI purposively, which I think is what Clarity is talking about.

Thanks @wiak and @bigpup .

For @mikewalsh demeaning comments, that was EXPECTED as the continued hatred he continues to push in HIS behavior. For a moderator, his behavior continues to "stink"

Thanks to all who have taken a couple moments to understand pristine boot behavior for those who use HDMI/DP with desktops.

If you want action items in addition to understanding and attention from others, move this discussion to a wireplumber issue or a comment on one of the existing issues that describe something similar.