Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

@wiak :-

Use of the terms 'Standard' and 'Legacy' was off the top of my head.....but I was trying to think of terms that would be easy for noobs to take in. But to make that 'Full' and 'Multi-layered filesystem installation', umm.....you're talking from a developer point of view (and one who has made it clear over the years that he likes to use the exact, specific, correct term for everything!)

YOU know what you're talking about. I, and most regular community members know what you're talking about. But for a noob, I honestly think that's just going to hopelessly confuse your average Joe.....and drive them into the waiting arms of mainstream distros who have gone out of their way to simplify everything as much as possible. And that's along with the further necessity of then having to once again make it clear that 'Full' is NOT the preferred method. This puts us back to square one, TBH. We still haven't re-named it to make it easy-to-understand.....and that is the whole point of the exercise, after all. At least, I thought it was....

Am I making any sense here? Sometimes, ya gotta let go of your own, pre-conceived & preferred way of doing things IF you want to attract the "great unwashed". We can't be too fussy & pernickety at the early stage of attracting new users.

Perhaps the whole question is a 'lost cause', and we'll NEVER get around to addressing this issue that's needed sorting for ages. A lot of our trouble, as a community, is that we always end up going round & round in circles and arguing everything to death. And STILL nothing gets done.

Mike.

@wiak I do like "Layered" better than "Standard". Could not really decide yesterday what a good name for it should be and "Layers" or "Layered" seems a much better descriptor. I was more or less mulling over how to get rid of "frugal" in a global way.

Forget about terms like standard, frugal, full or whatever. Just call it Puppy Install and then give the method of frugal install without giving the type of install a specific name. The user will then hopefully and probably accept that this is the only way of installing Puppy and follow the given procedure(s). Any application in the menu giving a full install as an alternative (if there is one) should be removed.

If we will not change anything, I think that article could have a note like this:

The system can be installed in two ways:
Frugal - it will cause less wear media such as SSDs, flash cards and pendrives and could be installed with other Linux systems or Windows on the same partition
Full - it need whole partition only for Puppy.
The first methode is prerefered.

Frugal means - frugal for media like SSD etc. not minimal installation.
Full means greedy in terms of the need for hard disk space.

Your right, puppy_apprentice. But the use of an entire partition is not a "Full's" only, or I might add, major weakness. Perhaps something like this choice:

Recommended.
Alternative.

Selecting Alternative would bring up a doc/htlm/txt explaining its positives (compiling, video-editing) and its many negatives and provide the choice of continuing or returning to the main menu.

But we've digressed from the purpose of this thread: What to do about bbyfield's offer. The last post on point --before I derailed it -- was Chelsea80':

"@ rockedge...Perhaps you could ask @bbyfield when his deadline is."

@puppy_apprentice Also a good idea. Simpler and more encompassing

@mikeslr I have not heard anything from him/her as of yet. I can try though

You can try email him bbyfield@gmail.com (i guess) or ask him on his blog:
https://brucebyfield.com/about/

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Master Byfield has already been scared off by the usual community "bickering"....

Mike.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:45 pm

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Master Byfield has already been scared off by the usual community "bickering"....

Mike.

This is normal in the Linux world. Linus argues with everyone and uses sometimes obscene words. Compared to Linus, we are very very polite and submissive

What a mess!

@bbyfield

If per chance you are following these posts then I would not blame you a bit if you have decided to run a million miles from this forum.

You came asking for help. It started off rather well with positive contributions from members.

Unfortunately it has descended into a somewhat mish-mash of ‘opinions’ and digressed from your initial post.

As an established, respected and knowledgeable reviewer my suggestion to you is to go to:

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/

Choose a version, download the ISO and burn to a USB stick.

Use it and become familiar with it. Then you will have hands on knowledge of Puppy Linux.

This might help in forming a personal opinion as to why a Puppy OS is so popular with us.

Then consider posting any queries to tidy things up.

My hope is that you will continue to be involved with us, the members, for your review.

If the above causes any concerns to any member then so be it.

Statement Of Interest

I use BionicPup32-8.0+28

The latest version (at date of writing) can be found here:

https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/p ... cpup32.htm

Then, on Windows XP, I burnt it to a USB stick using UNetbootin, which can be found here:

https://unetbootin.github.io/

Best regards

Chelsea80

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:14 pm

YOU know what you're talking about. I, and most regular community members know what you're talking about. But for a noob, I honestly think that's just going to hopelessly confuse your average Joe.....

Well, I see your point. Whether 'Layered' or multi-layered is not helpful (compared to 'frugal', which means nothing at all to me even as a descriptive term) could be determined by whether a 'noob' understands descriptively exactly the same term being used for graphics, where graphic images are 'layered'. Frugal install means nothing at all except that it is layered, so how do you describe it in any meaningful way at all? Standard or Legacy means nothing at all unless you already know how Puppy does things in which case you understand 'frugal' already.

However it is described or explained will require a few sentences to explain the advantages and disadvantages of ... using a filesystem made out of layers (and I certainly don't mean the large BarryK type descriptions of Puppy modes - that's a detailed explanation of everything, which is a different matter altogether). What has that 'picture' of how it works, in simplest view, really got to do with a developer - well it has, but descriptively 'Layered' is just the basis for all the advantages that need some minor explanation to whoever uses that kind of installation. What does 'frugal' tell you - well, tells me nothing - neither does 'legacy' or 'standard' - and for most distros what here is called a 'full-installation' is the legacy standard out there. But by all means call frugal 'legacy' or 'standard' if you think that helps - but personally, as a human, not a developer, i can't see how it does at all.

Layered, meaning 'built out of layers', seems to me to be the only explanatory title for the advantages you want to put forward to 'noobs' rather than it being any particularly difficult technical word or concept.

I tend to agree with puppy apprentice, except that the name 'frugal' was a very unfortunate choice of name since it does imply 'less' somehow, which is all too easy to think of as a negative. And, by the way, I was just answering something I read on the thread in relation to how we use the term on this forum. What the guy proposing to write an article on Puppy Linux finds most convenient for his article is not something in my mind otherwise.

As for that article writer, he asked for info from Puppy stewards. I have seen no Puppy steward say anything on this thread. Seems to me rockedge should simply step in, pass the guy the contact details of some stewards, or give him information on his own - rockedge knows enough himself about Puppy Linux if not too much trouble for him to pass that info on. The OP also talked about stewards to coordinate the answers so that implies getting answers and ideas such as this thread is doing and then someone coordinating them appropriately - naturally there are different ideas and opinions... up to the 'steward' to coordinate these.

I am exasperated.

All these posts about what terminology should be used for a description.

This is a valid discussion, I agree, just not for this particular thread.

However at the moment, it is what it is, and that is what the reviewer will see. Including every one else that starts to use Puppy.

It would be better served if a new thread was created just for this purpose and we get back to the OP.

Look at the title “Re: Linux Pro Magazine article on Puppy Linux"

That is what we should be concentrating on.

Please. Thank you.

Best regards

Chelsea80

imagine negotiating a nuclear arms treaty.

I plan on providing answers to the questions posed by the journalist. Taking what is well written or explained from which ever source provides it. I pretty much know from whom and where to get the information that is needed to answer these specific questions. The nature of which of we know nothing about as of yet.

It's all about steering all of the chaos to a single point in time.

williwaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:39 am

would you consider posting the questions and letting different volunteers provide answers?

Yes, I could do that.

My schedule was delayed by a family crisis, but I'll assemble a new thread as soon as possible.

@rockedge

This might be something you want to pass on to the OP, bbyfield.

viewtopic.php?t=6953

wizard

The email listing the questions and a brief note from the author on a new thread here => viewtopic.php?t=6959

Since this thread was started I see it has generated some 40 odd comments. But now the OP's questions are there for all to see, there's been barely half a dozen answers. In fact I notice that BigPup has recently bumped that thread, presumably to try and generate some more responses.

Admittedly I'm unable to provide an answer as I don't feel sufficiently "qualified", or have enough tech knowledge about the internal workings of Puppy.

Are the rest of us in a similar position?

wiak wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:49 pm

I have seen no Puppy steward say anything on this thread

The stewards are just busy fixing bugs and securing Puppy's future with PipeWire, overlay, Wayland and Flatpak.

"The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on"

dimkr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:16 pm

wiak wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:49 pm

I have seen no Puppy steward say anything on this thread

The stewards are just busy fixing bugs and securing Puppy's future with PipeWire, overlay, Wayland and Flatpak.

"The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on"

That's not a great answer actually. Most people in the world are busy and this is just a hobby distro. The OP of this thread particularly mentioned writing an article on behalf of Puppy Linux and asked for help from stewards.

Flatpak

oh no.

@dimkr I would hope at least one "steward" would answer one or more of the questions and share exactly what the future looks like since they are shaping it. The deadline is the 7th.

You have the most overall knowledge and can answer with certainty. It would seem to me that this is a good opportunity to present Puppy Linux to a bigger audience with an interest in it.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:45 pm

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Master Byfield has already been scared off by the usual community "bickering"....

Mike.

I've been around for a while. Puppy's forum is about par for the course for an established distribution

Chelsea80 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:22 pm

As an established, respected and knowledgeable reviewer my suggestion to you is to go to:

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/

Choose a version, download the ISO and burn to a USB stick.

Oh, I'm doing that, too. I would write about something without trying it.

Sorry for the lateness of this post. I only thought of this when I read your last.

Well, as long as you’re exploring –and if you still have the time-- try the following. It should give you a good idea of how Puppy, both the technology and its symbiotic relationship to the Forum, functions:

Download 666philb’s xenialpup64 from here, http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/puppy-xenial/64/. Note the time Ubuntu released Xenial Xerus, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases, that it no longer receives standard support, and that its repositories have been archived. https://packages.ubuntu.com/

‘Burn’ Xenialpup64 to a USB-Key. If you have Windows, follow the instructions here for using rufus. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 522#p40522. Running Ubuntu –or UNTESTED-- debian, follow the instructions here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=3931. From any Puppy, those here, viewtopic.php?t=3360 and follow the recipe here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=375

This part is not needed for the other parts to function. But it will show how easy it is to ‘swap kernels’.

Download ozsouth’s hugh-5.10.113ubun64oz.tar.bz2 kernel package from here, https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_Huge-Kernels. [Chosen randomly except for that its name suggested 'ubuntu' Puppys were its target and 64bit its architecture]. Right-Click the hugh-5.10.113ubun64oz.tar.bz2, select UExtract from the pop-up menu. In the extracted folder right-click>rename vmlinuz-5-blah-blah-blah to just vmlinuz; rename the kernel-modules-5-blah-blah-blah to zdrv_xenialpup64_7.5.sfs. Copy/Move these adjacent to vmlinuz, over-writing the current files there. [If your OS does not have an extraction application which works with tar.bz2 files, you can delay doing all of this until you’ve booted into Xenialpup64 which has UExtract. You can do this before your first shutdown.

Download the following:
MikeWalsh’s Firefox-portable64, via the link from here, viewtopic.php?p=37559#p37559
Any old LibreOffice AppImage from https://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/old-versions/ or MikeWalsh’s portable FreeOffice Suite or just the desired components from here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=4232. Those are more current then the LibreOffices.
[FYI, Version 7 (and probably 6) of LibreOffice requires a newer version of gtk than is built in to Xenialpup64. It could be installed, but I didn’t take the time to track down a package. MORE IMPORTANTLY, Some AppImages and many portables can be used under Xenialpup64 in the manner discussed below. Gimp in particular can be. (Tested.)]

Boot into your Xenialpup64 on the USB-Key and complete the First Setup Wizard which will appear. Shutdown creating preferably a SaveFolder or a SaveFile of at least 3 Gbs.

On reboot, Right-Click any package requiring extraction and select UExtract. And for AppImages Right-Click them, select Properties and place an ‘x’ in all boxes under Exec. Although ordinarily portables and AppImages would be located on the same partition as your Puppy, for the purpose of this exploration copy/move the AppImages and extracted packages to /opt. If within an extracted package, such as firefox-portable, there’s a script named MenuAdd or similar, run it after you've copied/moved the application's folder.

Install the attached version of nicOS-Utility-Suite.

It’s identical to the one from here except that I’ve repackaged it*. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 983#p12983. Menu>Exit>Restart Graphic Server (AKA restart-x) which causes Puppys to re-catalog what currently is available. Run Menu>Utilities>NicOS-Utility-Suite and select the Save2SFS option. Create either a ydrv or an adrv. This may take some time depending on the size of the applications you’ve installed into /opt.

[I know Save2SFS can be used even if there is no SaveFile/Folder (which would have avoided the need to add pfix=ram) but was hesitant to try it that way without knowing how much RAM was available and how many applications were to be located in /opt].

Open your boot-loaders menu.lst or grub.cfg in a text editor and edit the line beginning linux or kernel to read or include the argument pfix=ram. 'pfix=ram' tells the boot-loader NOT to mount the SaveFile/Folder.

Reboot. [If your boot-menu offered the choice, choose without using the SaveFile/Folder]. When you’ve reached desktop, unplug the USB-Key.

You’ll find that your 5 or 6 year old Operating System, with its recent kernel, can run recent applications even though the always pristine files on Storage are no longer accessible.

Why would you want do this? Well, always booting into a pristine operating system speaks for itself.

But why Xenialpup64? You probably wouldn’t choose that Puppy unless (a) you’ve been using it for 5 or six years, added those applications you need, customized it to your liking and it does everything you want except, perhaps, run currently needed Web-browsers. Why would you want to change that except to the extent that you needed to obtain the benefits of a recent Kernel and the now current Web-browsers? Or (b) Your computer only has 1Gb of RAM, and more recent Puppys, ‘though perhaps usable, were sluggish. Xenialpup64 with its lighter weight applications and other components would be more responsive.
But you’d be advised on the Forum that portables and AppImages should not be located in /opt but rather on your Home partition where, when not in use, they will require no-to-only-a-little RAM

--=--=--=--
* @ amethyst, my guess is the last time you packaged the pet you did not first delete the 'pet-specs' file from the previous version. However, FWIW, I would prefer the suite be packaged as an SFS so that it can be used from many Puppys; and only optionally included in the a/ydrv being built.