Vanilla Dpup 9.2.0 Preview

[Duprate]

Dimkr: Any future release intentions as overlayfs instead of aufs?

Yes, I want to get rid of aufs. It breaks often and it's buggy.

I look forward to it.......

[proebler]

I am running vanilladpup_9.2.0 (18) frugally installed on harddrive of an older HP Core2 Elitebook.
I have reported on an issue with JWM menu settings:
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 118#p59118

dimkr, do you intend to add a clipboard and a way to see system information (sysinfo) to vanilladpup?
I would find both useful.

regards proebler

[mikeslr]

I am running vanilladpup_9.2.0 (18) frugally installed on harddrive of an older HP Core2 Elitebook.
I have reported on an issue with JWM menu settings:
viewtopic.php?p=59118#p59118

dimkr, do you intend to add a clipboard and a way to see system information (sysinfo) to vanilladpup?
I would find both useful.

regards proebler

Backup your SaveFile/Folder first. But radky's pupsysinfo, viewtopic.php?p=32266#p32266 should answer the 2nd part of your request. It runs. But I haven't Saved it, shutdown/rebooted yet. Edit: Installed, Saved, rebooted. No problem.
I've been testing some of my 'Puppy Standards' under Vanilla Dpup. Some caused problems. Will provide a detailed report later of what worked, mostly worked and generated problems.

I don't know what to suggest regarding a clipboard. Edit: psearch suggests that at least some Puppys have used parcellite. vanilladup's synaptic will install it. (Probably apt and PPM will as well. But as long as you have synaptic you might as well use it. Saves having to remember commands or hunt for dependencies. ) Synaptic also reported that clipit was available but deprecated. PPM just showed it available. Another Plus for Synaptic.

[mikeslr]

I'll try to be brief. As I don't compile, run several Puppys and being a creature of habit try to set them up as much alike as possible, my first concern in the exploration of a new Puppy is "What applications (if not builtin) do I have and frequently use which will work OOTB, or can be made to work with little effort.

Under the most recent release of Dpup 9.2.0 these worked or a bullseye version could be installed:
Osmo via apt (see previous posts).
artha_fossa64-1.0.3.pet; gmeasures-0.7-x86_64_bionicpup.pet; ListDD-2.2.pet; UExtract-4.7.pet; PupsysInfo-3.1.pet.
pwidgets-2.6.0-x86_64.pet --everything except the weather plugins. Zigbert solved that in the 5.10 version; but that version only recognized one clock face.
A Qt4 pet I previously published could be used to make the masterpdfeditor-portable functional.

MikeWalsh's portable xvidcap 'functions' after synaptic installed libglade. I have not yet tried to configure sound per his posted instructions. I wasn't happy with the alternatives: simplescreenrecorder (via apt or synaptic) requires manual typing of a regions co-ordinates while under xvidcap a region is selected via your mouse, VokoscreenNG.AppImage appears to require pulse-audio. I don't recall why I didn't like Kazam: No region option? Sound untested.
Uget via synaptic after ListDD identified a dependency which synaptic should have but didn't.
Many of the portables and AppImages I've collected and use regularly worked OOTB. But I haven't linked them to my system, yet. What I'm currently doing is fleshing out a 'ydrv' which will contain mostly applications 'alien' to debian-bullyeye or unlikely to be upgraded in the future. So I was very please to find that amethyst's Utility-Suite's Save2SFS module worked and that VanillaDpup still follows the Puppy tradition of using ydrvs and adrvs if available.
taersh's PaDS also works. I used it to create a simplescreenrecorder.sfs from debs synaptic downloaded but did not install, They were found in /var/cache --bolded distinguishing them other debs found there which synaptic had previously 'stored'*. I moved them into an appropriately named folder then followed the recipe spelled out in the PaDS thread for creating an SFS from multiple source files. As simplescreenrecorder was not to become part (installed) in the system, synaptic won't miss them* and I shut down without Saving: Even if I had just copied the debs, they would not have been preserved in /var/cache.

What didn't work and/or broke dpup: trans_tray broke wifi. VanillaDup has a builtin dir2iso file. But it won't work without CD(R?) tools. Packit's mkiso module similarly requires that. I did not include packit my my ydrv.sfs as its other modules duplicate others I already have. So, at this point I don't know of an easy way to create an ISO. As dimkr and BarryK have noted Puppys don't need a method of doing that. I'll post some ideas to the thread discussing the deprecation of ISO if I can find it.

I have a pet I created to add some right-click options other Puppys have, such as dir2pet, dir2sfs. But it broke VanillaDup. So I decompressed the pet and copied those I found to be safe (including the two mentioned, and run-in-terminal. I consider being able to Right-Click executable and read the terminal's output a great convenience in diagnosing problems. (Yes, I know the alternative "./" but my fingers don't like it). IMHO, ListDD is also an essential tool for exploring problems.

* Storing debs already installed is a waste of space. IIRC (from debiandog's) the var cache can be deleted. But I'm not sure how well synaptic would take to that.

[proebler]

mikeslr wrote:

Backup your SaveFile/Folder first. But radky's pupsysinfo, viewtopic.php?p=32266#p32266 should answer the 2nd part of your request. It runs. But I haven't Saved it, shutdown/rebooted yet. Edit: Installed, Saved, rebooted. No problem.
I've been testing .........

I don't know what to suggest regarding a clipboard. Edit: psearch suggests that at least some Puppys have used parcellite. vanilladup's synaptic will install it. (Probably apt and PPM will as well. But as long as you have synaptic you might as well use it. Saves having to remember commands or hunt for dependencies. ) Synaptic also reported that clipit was available but deprecated. PPM just showed it available. Another Plus for Synaptic.

.. quite so.
Xclip is installed, ctrl+c, ctrl+v , middle click paste all work, but there is no control over the clipboard contents.
But why make users go searching for handy, small applications like parcellite, clipit or pupsysinfo ?
Perhaps Puppy users have been spoiled (for too long)

[dimkr]

But why make users go searching for handy, small applications like parcellite, clipit or pupsysinfo ?

1) Some users don't need these applications, and some of these users will complain if they have an extra tray icon
2) Tray icons are deprecated in GTK+ 4 and with GTK+ 3 under Wayland, it's a good time to find alternatives - I prefer not to add more deprecated applications and just let the users decide for themselves
3) Every user has their own so-called small and harmless addition or change, it's impossible to build something that works 100% for everyone and apt install parcellite shouldn't take long
4) pupsysinfo is a .pet package and Vanilla Dpup is built with zero .pet packages, to make it easier to drop PPM in the future (https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... ssues/3076)

[proebler]

No problem dimkr, it is you project .
Thank you for your efforts !

[Clarity]

Recognizing its your distro, would you consider placing SAMBA which is in PUPs and DOGs from @01micko (aprrox 10MB) in this distro, please.

[Duprate]

Hi! After downloading vanilladpup-x86_64-9.2.0-preview18, I had timezone issues again. It changes the time in the PC configuration.... I have six systems installed on the PC and they all work cohesively! So after installing the seventh system (dpup 9.2.0) everything gets messed up. Who is correct: the six systems that work well or the newcomer who fucks everything up! No need to answer .... already uninstalled .....

[williams2]

everything gets messed up

WARNING: Fatdog also messes up my hardware clock.

An OS running live (not installed) should not modify the hardware clock (RTC),
unless it asks for permission, and respects the answer.

[Grey]

Well, since we have such a "drunken party" going on ... I once again launched Linux Mint and then Fossapup. Yes, Mint also changes the time by three hours

[dimkr]

Recognizing its your distro, would you consider placing SAMBA which is in PUPs and DOGs from @01micko (aprrox 10MB) in this distro, please.

As I've said in the past: Samba is huge, it's a security risk (https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabilit ... Samba.html), and file sharing in the LAN is not as common as it used to be (thanks to things like Dropbox and Syncthing).

Have you tried apt install samba?

[dimkr]

Hi! After downloading vanilladpup-x86_64-9.2.0-preview18, I had timezone issues again. It changes the time in the PC configuration.... I have six systems installed on the PC and they all work cohesively! So after installing the seventh system (dpup 9.2.0) everything gets messed up. Who is correct: the six systems that work well or the newcomer who fucks everything up! No need to answer .... already uninstalled .....

You probably configured all these OSs to use localtime, instead of using UTC. If I keep the Puppy default of localtime, which pisses off many users, people complain that Vanilla Dpup doesn't play nicely with other OSs they have. If I change to UTC, it breaks things for users who deal with this bad default by configuring non-Puppy OSs to use localtime.

I can't fix everything for anyone, and there's no automatic way for Puppy to tell if the hardware clock tells the truth or the truth +/- 3 hours, so it can automatically detect if the hardware clock is local or UTC. If you choose to use multiple OSs on the same machine, don't expect everything to work automatically.

[williwaw]

3) Every user has their own so-called small and harmless addition or change,

yes, I appreciate the kiss approach, as sometimes the preinstalled stuff conflicts with my preferred apps

[wiak]

everything gets messed up

WARNING: Fatdog also messes up my hardware clock.

An OS running live (not installed) should not modify the hardware clock (RTC),
unless it asks for permission, and respects the answer.

Not sure if this is used in Vanilla Dpup, but after very quick look at woof-CE I note that rc.country can call script set_hwclock_type and if "to match hardware" is the result then the HWOPT could get set to --systohc, which I presume means that:

Code: Select all

CMD="hwclock ${HWOPT} --${HWCLOCKTIME}"

could result in system time getting written back to the hardware clock so result will depend on whether been set up to use utc or localtime. I guess you never want system clock to get written back to hardware clock unless specific permission asked for, but maybe this being asked in a dialog or xdialog at first boot of Pups? If the default ended up being "to match hardware", I imagine hardware clock will get written to (so result will depend if the Pup set up to use utc or localtime).

I'm just guessing and I haven't checked any other Puppy scripts that could be involved. No doubt dimkr could enlighten us. Also I have no idea if other distros on the forum write back system clock to hardware clock in some circumstances. I believe most Pups are set up to use localtime by default (?), but many other Linux distros recommend the use UTC and adjust Windows OS accordingly if dual booting. Ever using command hwclock --systohc does seem to be the danger of it all! I suspect we need to be very sure all distros we boot with use only one of localtime or utc for their system clock, and have some software user asked safeguard in place if ever the command "hwclock --systohc" is to be run? Maybe easier said than done.

[Clarity]

Thanks @dimkr for your reply.

... Samba is huge, it's a security risk (https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabilit ... Samba.html), and file sharing in the LAN is not as common ...

I am not sure how you've calculated the info you share on 'huge' and not common. And the site you share has been used to track elements for quite some time as world developers continue resolving issues same as is done in Linux kernal and any major subsystems.

But, if SAMBA is distasteful to you, its OK by me. The DOGs and PUPs continue to work without issues for users TVs, PCs, phones, etc. in our homes.

Thanks again for your reply; was just hoping for it to be one-less thing for user installation that could go wrong when putting this distro into service: vs having it come out of the WoofCE build system, chance of something going wrong is diminished.

I wan merely thinking of the advantage.

[dimkr]

I am not sure how you've calculated the info you share on 'huge'

Look at https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/samba and https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/samba-libs. These these two packages are about 40 MB, and that's only two packages from the long list of Samba packages and Samba dependencies.

and not common.

You're the only one asking for Samba repeatedly

[ally]

I'm a heavy user of samba I'm afraid...

[Clarity]

... These these two packages are about 40 MB ...

You've got to be kidding, right Shocked that you said this.

40MB on today PUPs/DOGs on PCs, old or new. VERSUS, users not running into LAN sharing issues where installations to make it happen go wrong (as users run into from time to time) which require forum or developer review...humm??? I am missing the logic.

Anyway, I stand by this "ITS YOUR DISTRO". So on that note I stand with your decision if you feel it best for users.

The forum is full of great developers doing what they find is best for use. And, like the Linux kernel, SAMBA has been around with worldwide support for as many years thanks, in part, to the agreement between Tridgell and Tovalds in 1993-1994 on how development would proceed.

Thanks for your consideration, again.

[dimkr]

40MB

As I said, 40 MB is only two packages. The whole dependency chain of Samba is over 100 MB! That's a lot. I don't think a 1/4 increase in the ISO size is justified, if only a tiny minority of users uses Samba, and can apt install samba.

[rcrsn51]

In order for Samba to work correctly, particularly with regards to security, both the Samba server and Samba clients should be running the same version. Too often, Puppy users will be running Version X on their server and Version Y or Z on their clients. Then they don't understand why Samba fails with a third-party client/server like Windows.

This is why bundling a Samba server with Puppy is a mistake.

[Clarity]

NEVER ran into this issue when any recent (6 years) SAMBA or Microsoft or Apple SMB server needed changing of all client when new SMB server PC is introduced on the LAN. NOR, have I personally seen any documentation that indicates doing this when a server upgrade is done for security reasons. All of recent Wins/Apples/Linux for many years use smb2 & smb3 which all PUPs/DOGs have been using for several years. And YES, I saw recently a user in need of smb1 for a specific need...rare or misunderstood (I dont know which). We are not talking about changing LAN PCs in favor of an addition to this distro.

Further the shipped distro ISO/IMG size is not such; the PC RAM size is meaningless as it does NOT tax the PC in any meaningful way (ie CPU or RAM or disk use). This info can demonstrated. And in my few years in Puppyland, I cannot remember any user complaining of a SAMBA having a negative impact on system operation/use.

Lots of years in using NAS, Servers, etc. That's a new one.

Maybe best to avoid this discussion on this thread as the author is opposed to this addition. Again, many other PUPs & DOGs & Linux & etc. available where their authors see benefit to not having users add this separately for OOTB use...particularly on "LIVE" distro use.

I refrain.

[dimkr]

Further the shipped distro ISO/IMG size is not such; the PC RAM size is meaningless as it does NOT tax the PC in any meaningful way (ie CPU or RAM or disk use).

When the main SFS is bigger, it eats more disk space. If it's copied to RAM (pfix=ram), this extra size also translates into increased RAM usage.

[BarryK]

As I said, 40 MB is only two packages. The whole dependency chain of Samba is over 100 MB! That's a lot. I don't think a 1/4 increase in the ISO size is justified, if only a tiny minority of users uses Samba, and can apt install samba.

Ha ha, I just stumbled upon this discussion. I have the full samba in EasyOS, but I'm desperate to trim the size of 'easy.sfs', and just today was thinking might take out samba.

In Easy 4.0, just released, the download file 'easy-4.0-amd64.img' is 773MiB and uncompressed. It has two partitions, 767MiB vfat and 4MiB ext4. Now that I'm using lz4-hc compression with mksquashfs, 'easy.sfs' is 750MiB, so just fits. However, it is a tight squeeze, and I really wanted to include another package, an email client. So something has to go.

I would rather not increase the size of the vfat partition, so instead have been thinking what packages are not really needed. Samba has immediately jumped to mind. For a LAN, it is not needed for Linux-to-Linux file and printer sharing, only with Windows boxes.

Anyway, I am thinking will take out samba. It is still available via the package manager. In fact, any GUI app in which samba sharing is selected, could prompt to install it if not present. Easy has "EasyShare" which is a file and printer sharing management GUI, and can choose sshfs or samba, via radiobuttons -- if user selects samba, easy enough to put up a message asking to install it.

[BarryK]

An extra note:

It has been at least a couple of years since I looked at samba, so I am a bit rusty. I did have the vague idea that samba is not really required anymore as a client to share with Windows machines.

Doing a bit of quick reading now, yes:

http://wiki.robotz.com/index.php/Linux_ ... _and_Samba

Quoting:

The cifs-utils package is available for modern Linux kernels as the protocol is supported directly in the kernel. The cifs-utils package is not part of Samba, although they were originally included with it. Today you do not need to install Samba to have cifs-utils. Install the cifs-utils package for connectivity to Microsoft Networks. Samba is not deprecated. Samba provides both cifs and smb support, and comes with many additional tools. For basic connectivity to a modern Microsoft Windows Network, Samba is simply no longer necessary.

cifs-utils has 'mount.cifs' utility.

Who really needs to setup a samba server on their Linux machine?
I think, for those few people who do, it does not justify having it builtin to the sfs. They can install it from the package manager.

[Sofiya]

Thanks a lot . This is a super puppy.

[Duprate]

Good morning, Dimkr! vanilladpup-9.0.47.iso, released 7 days ago, was the last release of 9.0.x ? Officially unsupported?

[dimkr]

Good morning, Dimkr! vanilladpup-9.0.47.iso, released 7 days ago, was the last release of 9.0.x ? Officially unsupported?

Yes, I disabled automated 9.0.x builds. 9.2.x should work for pretty much all 9.0.x users: it adds some non-intrusive features (like apt, and you can choose not to use it) and adds many fixes that cannot be backported to 9.0.x.

[dimkr]

I'm locking this topic. The final 9.2.0 release is out (and followed by 9.2.1, 9.2.2, etc').

The latest release download link are always available at https://vanilla-dpup.github.io.