Corepup - a minimalist modular system

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s243a
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symlinks w/ whiteout files (Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system)

Post by s243a »

Here's a random thought. What if I wanted to use symlinks and white out files. So say I have an sfs that I want to modify but I don't want to extract it. I just want to mount it. Say, I have another folder that represents changes, which uses whiteout files for deletions. Now, first I create the symlinks pointing to the original sfs. Next, I apply, the whitout files to remove any symlinks and/or directories that should no longer be symlinked to the original. Finally, I create the symlinks to the folder representing the changes.

Once created the combined folder, which has all the merged symlinks can be transformed into normal files by using the command:

Code: Select all

rsync --copy-unsafe-links 

If the symlinks are relative, then they could form the base of a chroot system, and this should be equivalent to using a layered file system with the the changes layer on top. As a side note, bind's can be used as an alternative to symlinking directories. However, binds might not work when used as sub-layers within a layered file system.

When I replace the unionfs mount with aufs, it mounts the RO mount point and
carries through the build environment but it does not carry through the
project build sources which were bind-mounted into a subdirectory.

https://sourceforge.net/p/aufs/mailman/ ... /28053576/

and I know that layered file systems isn't a focus of corepup but it is good to have options and know the differences between the options.

As a final note, since termux lacks the ability to mount or extract sfs files without root permissions, a prooted version of puppy running in termux could use this symlink approach to load and unload sfs files however, rather than sfs we would use a format that termux can extract without root premissions such as tar files. One member of this forum created the challenge of making a termux proot puppy. See thread:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1121

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

wiak wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 4:57 am

Hopefully, tinycore symlink method (or per Fred's implementation) will also provide optimum solution to using sfs load/unload when employing underlying overlayfs layers rather than aufs. Seems likely from above reports by Fred. Very useful, as are some other of the mechanisms rufwoof is employing to produce his own ultra-small and secure system. Interesting times indeed.

wiak

However, history definitely repeating itself somewhat recently now that some other developers are moving towards using overlayfs to some extent:

As long ago as 2009, murga forum member jrb published SFS-TCZ_Linker-2.2.pet, which is an interesting read. I had forgotten about his implementation, but I do remember reading it back then when jrb was really into using tcz files with Pups and I was an avid user, at the time, of tinycorelinux as well as pups:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 836#352836

Of course tinycorelinux actually devised the methodology though I would not be surprised if someone else invented the technique for mounting squashed filesystems (or similar) long ago since there is nothing revolutionary about using symlinks to reorganise where files/directories appear more generally.

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi all

at the risk of showing my ignorance
i see no advantage to (any) layered filesystems over symlinks
and many disadvantages
in addition i believe that symlinks offer many more options
for example the ability to add, move and subtract targets
without the need to reboot
by simply making new symlinks, renaming targets or removing symlinks
if they are not made in a persistent medium the will be erased at reboot
if the are made in a persistent medium they will remain active between reboots
they do not need to be developed further
(aside from figuring out additional clever ways to use them)
so they need no developer

so i see no need to ever use layered filesystems

anyway thats my corepup philosophy

but of course i am no guru

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by s243a »

wanderer wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:05 am

hi all

at the risk of showing my ignorance
i see no advantage to (any) layered filesystems over symlinks
and many disadvantages
in addition i believe that symlinks offer many more options
for example the ability to add, move and subtract targets
without the need to reboot
by simply making new symlinks, renaming targets or removing symlinks
if they are not made in a persistent medium the will be erased at reboot
if the are made in a persistent medium they will remain active between reboots
they do not need to be developed further
(aside from figuring out additional clever ways to use them)
so they need no developer

so i see no need to ever use layered filesystems

anyway thats my corepup philosophy

but of course i am no guru

wanderer

One advantage of a layered file system is it is easier to identify changes. This helps minimize the amount of files that one needs to scan for threats. Another advantage is it is faster to add a layer than it is to create symlinks. Layers could also reside on different file systems. For examples files which are frequently used could reside on a ram layer.

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by s243a »

BTW @wanderer. I'm curious if you have a list of files which you modified for corepup. I want to look more into it sometime in the future. It is an interesting sounding system. :)

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi s243a

thanks for the info on layered filesystems
i now see they have advantages
however for me i prefer the simplicity of symlinks

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi s243a

corepup is less of an actual project
than it is a reminder to everyone
that there is another way
(and i think a simpler and more versitile way)
to set up a puppy like system

corepup is just tinycore/dcore
with some experimentation to enhance it

since tinycore/dcore is being actively developed
the plan is that corepup
will remain completely compatable with tinycore/decore

the only file in the initrd i modified is tc-config
which is equvalent to puppy's init file
and only to test if i could add boot codes etc

i also modified the syslinux.cfg file to alter the boot menu

and added a few other things to enhance the functionality
however these are intentionally restricted to the home directory

like symlinking /root to /home
and symlinking to an apps folder in /home

oh and i compiled a small simple version of jwm, corepup-jwm
that uses only one file corepup.jwmrc instead of .jwmrc

anyway real simple minor stuff

so if you are interested in this system
you might look at one of the old corepup isos
and take a look at the tinycore/dcore pages

anyway its interesting and a lot of fun

wanderer

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi all

just an update on the minimal modular puppy (from fossapup64) project

i continue to work on adding/deleting packages in woof-ce
to get the base-x main.sfs

i am now going to take a look again at tinycore/dcore
to see what is actually needed for the base-x module
since they have broken everything out efficiently

see you soon

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

rufwoof wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:36 am

Approaching it from the other direction, adding a puppy.sfs as a tinycore sfs (another loop device and cp -ais the content) ... would add that on top of what is already there within tinycore. In Fatdog I use HDD based multi-session save, which creates a new/additional sfs each time you click 'save', so they also could be 'loaded'.

You could also make your recent mini-modular-puppy core simply an sfs addon for tinycore itself, as rufwoof alludes to in his Nov2020 post above.

I've also in the past shown that I can take all of Puppy (its puppyXXX.sfs, adrv, fdrv, zdrv, and so on) and use/convert them almost instantly and perfectly into a WeeDogLinux system (driven by weedog initrd rather than Puppy's own) and hence no Pupmodes but using WeeDogLinux flexible frugal install modes instead. Having said that, I'm more interested in my dpkg_apt_PAM addon capability for Puppy proper since I believe Debian-based Puppy would be a better system if it moved to using upstream apt/dpkg package manager (since PPM is just trying to duplicate an already perfectly working dpkg_apt system) - could still use underlying Puppy components for all other system components though, so still very much Puppy.

Basically, I personally see no point in using upstream repos with a foreign package manager when upstream package manager is already designed and available.

Tinycore on the other hand has its own repos and thus it makes sense that it needs its own package manager.

Using puppy as CorePup extension sfs would keep all tinycore facilities in other words (though a few things in Puppy would no doubt need tweaked to work in useful way as part of CorePup - for example to fit-in/use tinycore method of save/persistence)

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak

yes it is no problem adding a puppy sfs file to tinycore as a tcz file

you may need to tweak things to make things compatible
but that is a straightforward process

in addition the puppy boot process is unnecessarily complex
the unionfs is inefficient
and distro-package-specs is not organized appropriately

i have figured out how to use woof-ce to make modules from puppy packages
and these modules could be used in tinycore

and anything that needs to be added from the puppy core
can be added to the tinycore initrd (or whatever hybrid initrd is created)

the central idea is that the system can be made to be modular and minimal
and that it can be used with my simple system
so it is accessible to the entire puppy community

1. a repository of modules
2. a module build script
3. an iso build script
4 templates for each iso

im sure your weedog system fits right in with this model

and rockedges void puppy should also

the 4 components of the iso are

1. a bootloader module
2. a kernel module
3. an initrd-core module
4. everything else as modules (sfs files)

couldn't get more simple and flexible than that

so after spending a considerable amount of time experimenting with woof-ce

i have decide to use the tinycore system as the base initrd
and add puppy (and other) components to whatever hybrid is created

i will use my corepup repository
to post the base parts initially

i hope you will integrate your weedog into all this
and explain how everything works

i await your further words of wisdom as to how we should proceed

william

Last edited by wanderer on Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by Grey »

Hello wiak. What can you say about the dracut set of init scripts? Some russian versions of Puppy use UIRD(Unified Init Ram Disk system) which is based on dracut. UIRD itself is a unified init system for modular Linux systems. The documentation for UIRD is in russian, but if you have time you can look through the translator(there is a link to 'View on GitHub' at the top).

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

Grey wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:16 am

Hello wiak. What can you say about the dracut set of init scripts? Some russian versions of Puppy use UIRD(Unified Init Ram Disk system) which is based on dracut. UIRD itself is a unified init system for modular Linux systems. The documentation for UIRD is in russian, but if you have time you can look through the translator(there is a link to 'View on GitHub' at the top).

Yes, I've used some dracut functionality when examining some upstream initrd creations (using dracut to uncompress the initrd archive), but I don't know much about the init scripts dracut creates. I don't myself use it because I want a very simple init script that I can hand-craft and develop slowly without relying on some generic build-initrd, generally complex underlying system. That's a matter of personal choice. No doubt the unifying effect of a dracut 'solution' saves thinking and makes some according sense, and the more 'universal' a 'solution' is the more useful it is to learn its operation, especially if you work professionally in the field (I'm retired).

I can't say one way or the other, therefore, if I'd consider a dracut approach a good way forward for Puppy development - some aspects of it might be useful, but I don't know enough about it to give an opinion on that. I do know that upstream Void Linux uses dracut for its official system builds, but these official builds do not provide the frugal installable filesystem layer functionalities the hand-crafted initrd/init scripts such as used in Puppy, Porteus (as modified for DebianDogs), WeeDogLinux do.

So, I'm neither yay nor nay on that. Certainly worth exploring.

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak grey and everyone

i note that tinycore and dcore have a 64 bit versions

since i know that a lot of people think it is a waste of time to work on 32 bit
that might be an option to consider

i am looking at the 64 bit tinycore now
and it appears to be pretty much the same as tinycore 32 bit just in 64 bit

so 64 bit puppy stuff (as in fossapup64)
should work with its initrd and extensions

this should also be true of dcore 64 bit

so this seems like a good place to start

any thoughts

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

With limited developers and development time, I'd go with 64bit for most use. Sometimes the additional work required to make 32bit version isn't a lot, so depends what you find in practice.

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak

so the 64 bit it will be

i will begin working on it now

1. tinycore 64 bit initrd-core + puppy core components = hybrid cores

2. tinycore 64 bit sfs extensions + puppy sfs extensions = hybrid repository of applications

i will use tinycore 64 mounting system until another can be devised (if needed)

and woof-ce puppy module builder that i have set up (see minimal modular puppy (from fossapu64) thread

you have been a great help and support
and if you have the time and inclination
i would greatly appreciate your ongoing advice

thanks

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak s243a taersh dimkr and everyone

i have posted the

corepure64-12
tinycorepure64-12
dcorebuster64
dcoreplusbuster64

isos
in the corepup repository on the first post
these are the isos i will work with

starting with tinycorepure64-12.iso
since it is a good minimal base system

as i said
i will make puppy modules with the woof-ce system
and use the tinycorepure64 iso and initrd
instead of the puppy initrd

taersh
you might want to look at the initrd in the tinycorepure64-12 iso
and see if it is of any interest to you

wiak
can your weedog merge with all this

well back to playing
any help or input is greatly appreciated

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

wanderer wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:32 pm

hi wiak s243a taersh dimkr and everyone

i have posted the

corepure64-12
tinycorepure64-12
dcorebuster64
dcoreplusbuster64

isos
...
wiak
can your weedog merge with all this

No, WeeDogLinux is an entirely different and separate distro design. Nothing wrong with you continuing to work on your tinycore-based system however. All Linux developments help each other. Sometimes there are advantages when everyone helps the development of the same distro, but diversity also has its advantages and it is impossible anyway to force anyone into one team or mould so we have to live with that.

Main thing is that everything contributed and discussed on this forum provides opportunity to discuss Linux implementations/ideas/innovations more generally - that is what makes the forum so active.

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak

yes i will continue with the tinycore base idea
because that is manageable for me

however i am very interested in your system
as it seems to be minimal and modular
but for some reason it has been difficult for me to grasp
i will go to the weedog thread and try again

thanks again

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

wanderer wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:11 am

but for some reason it has been difficult for me to grasp
i will go to the weedog thread and try again

Poor overall documentation by myself unfortunately. That will be improved upon eventually but alas I am too busy with various major development additions to get back to writing more straightforward docs. Best to come back much later (in the year) maybe. ;-)

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

Anyway, I have an issue with this thread. It is far too short and a poor shadow of the 57 page original, which I highly recommend reading if you like a bit of light relief now and then.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 540#923231

Just joking wanderer, keep up the good infinite blog since its multiple threads clearly ruffles a few feathers and wakes up some woof-CE activity now and then ;-)

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

rampup... 2007. That's only been 14 years now wanderer, and never varied your style. Fun really.

Anyway, I have a new announcement to make. But it is late and I am so tired tonight so I will wait till tomorrow.

wiak

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

yeah wiak

rampup

its been an amusing and interesting journey
but one has to have a hobby

well get some sleep

i await your announcement

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by rockedge »

I also am interested in the announcement!

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wiak »

rockedge wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:10 pm

I also am interested in the announcement!

Changed my mind

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi wiak

hope everything is ok with you
take care of yourself

as i posted on dimkr's dpupOS thread
no further need for me to hassle with modular puppy
since dpupOS is a modular puppy

but i will still work on my system
since its completely different
and distro neutral

i will also include 32 bit
using tinycore 32 bit as base
because its no extra work
and in tinycore 32 there is a deps list for each extension
which makes things much easier

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi all

this is just a report on what i am doing

since dimkr is building a modular puppy
that is no longer my concern

so i am working on my simple build system
which consists of

1. a repository of modules
2. a module maker script
3. an iso maker script
4. text templates for each iso build

this system can work with virtually any distro
or a combinations of distros

i am using tinycore/dcore as a base
since this system is essentially my simple build system
with some issues to be smoothed out

for example tinycore has modules in the form of tcz (sfs) files
and dcore can build modules (with their dependencies included) from debian

over time i intend to combine these two functions
into my simple build system

i will post any info on the project on this thread
and any isos/modules in the corepup repository on the first post

if anyone is interested in this project post on this thread

any input is appreciated

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by taersh »

wiak wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:53 am
rockedge wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:10 pm

I also am interested in the announcement!

Changed my mind

Are you a Changeling? ;) :lol:

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi all

i intend to combine
my simple build system
and corepup

so corepup 9
will be based on debian 9
using dcore-stretch

i will use this thread for everything
since it keeps things neat

william

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by 8Geee »

Is it possible to make an Arm-32 or Arm-64 system out of this... or is that a completely different beast?

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Re: Corepup - a minimalist modular system

Post by wanderer »

hi 8geee

no this is only x86 32 bit

go to the tinycore site and ask your question
someone may have some advice or be working on something

william

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