Wayland in forum distros

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Clarity
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Wayland in forum distros

Post by Clarity »

There has been movement is EACH of the forum area among distro builders in 2024-2025. These distros, operationally, are stable in my findings in testing the.

Teh KL distros are stable, the Woof CE distros are solid, @mistfire has produced a solid implementation and others are forthcoming in the coming months from the varied forum developers.

There is a Youtube tester who is well-known who has been critical to a feature that he feel is overdue. So much so, that he has made 2 videos addressing the feature during the past 24 hours. One is about plasma,while his other relates to SDDM in desktop manager use. For those developers who are interested, they are here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8Oo_CUq_A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPUWfVew7lI

FYI

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by Wiz57 »

I don't know if Wayland is the over-riding development in Linux yet or not. X still has quite a large presence.
Something I've been experimenting with just the last week is the "overlay" union file system as an option to AUFS. There have been a few problems of late with AUFS, but overlay may offer a long term alternative.

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by mistfire »

Wiz57 wrote: Tue Apr 08, 2025 4:23 am

I don't know if Wayland is the over-riding development in Linux yet or not. X still has quite a large presence.
Something I've been experimenting with just the last week is the "overlay" union file system as an option to AUFS. There have been a few problems of late with AUFS, but overlay may offer a long term alternative.

X11 is being abandoned due to the following reasons:

1. no active upstream maintainers
2. complex implementations
3. lack of security features
4. no longer fitted on modern gpu implementations

Wayland development these days was significantly fast. It has simpler and faster graphics implementations, and it has security features.

AUFS was still third-party due to the complexity of the aufs codebase.

Overlayfs can still be used on Puppy, however some sacrifices must be made:

1. Abandoning ramdisk caching (odd-numbered pupmode for now)
2. Abandoning on-the-fly SFS module loading. (Although there is a partial overlayfs implementation for loading SFS modules on-the-fly)

Last edited by mistfire on Sun May 04, 2025 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by dimkr »

mistfire wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 12:11 am

1. Abandoning ramdisk caching (odd-numbered pupmode)

What do you mean? I did all the necessary adjustments, PUPMODE 13 works just fine and so does copying of SFSs to RAM. Only difference compared to aufs is that files are not deleted from pup_rw after saving to pup_ro1, because overlay forbids changes to lower layers.

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by mistfire »

dimkr wrote:

Only difference compared to aufs is that files are not deleted from pup_rw after saving to pup_ro1, because overlay forbids changes to lower layers.

However it quickly fill the ram since it wasn't deleted on pup_rw. That's why abandoning the odd pupmodes on overlayfs is a better choice for now unless the developers of overlayfs gave an option for on-the-fly branch changes.

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by wiak »

mistfire wrote: Sun May 04, 2025 3:43 am
dimkr wrote:

Only difference compared to aufs is that files are not deleted from pup_rw after saving to pup_ro1, because overlay forbids changes to lower layers.

However it quickly fill the ram since it wasn't deleted on pup_rw. That's why abandoning the odd pupmodes on overlayfs is a better choice for now unless the developers of overlayfs gave an option for on-the-fly branch changes.

Yes, it is a limitation. But that doesn't mean abandoning whole session changes held in RAM mode 'is a better choice'. Rather, that kind of save on demand mode is what most of us appreciate about frugal installs. Fact is most of us never run into trouble with RAM being used up most days so continue to enjoy save on demand mechanisms. Sometimes we have plenty RAM to start with, or sufficient for most of our purposes or can add/purchase more cheaply. I suspect adding that ability for overlayfs to allow altered lower layers requires complex difficult to trust or maintain or keep efficiently running code. The complexity perhaps outways the advantage to most of the Linux world implementing/maintaining it; life is a compromise, but doesn't at all make it better to abandon save on demand RAM modes. Implementation simplicity I.e. KISS principle is generally the preferred engineering approach, and face it: most of the computing world have little or no interest in frugal install 'tricks'. But I for one continue to often prefer not saving some Linux sessions - and overlayfs results are good enough for my needs anyway, and not likely to suddenly no longer work as a layering methodology.

https://www.tinylinux.info/
DOWNLOAD wd_multi for hundreds of 'distros' at your fingertips: viewtopic.php?p=99154#p99154
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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by dancytron »

wiak wrote: Sun May 04, 2025 2:16 pm
mistfire wrote: Sun May 04, 2025 3:43 am
dimkr wrote:

Only difference compared to aufs is that files are not deleted from pup_rw after saving to pup_ro1, because overlay forbids changes to lower layers.

However it quickly fill the ram since it wasn't deleted on pup_rw. That's why abandoning the odd pupmodes on overlayfs is a better choice for now unless the developers of overlayfs gave an option for on-the-fly branch changes.

Yes, it is a limitation. But that doesn't mean abandoning whole session changes held in RAM mode 'is a better choice'. Rather, that kind of save on demand mode is what most of us appreciate about frugal installs. Fact is most of us never run into trouble with RAM being used up most days so continue to enjoy save on demand mechanisms. Sometimes we have plenty RAM to start with, or sufficient for most of our purposes or can add/purchase more cheaply. I suspect adding that ability for overlayfs to allow altered lower layers requires complex difficult to trust or maintain or keep efficiently running code. The complexity perhaps outways the advantage to most of the Linux world implementing/maintaining it; life is a compromise, but doesn't at all make it better to abandon save on demand RAM modes. Implementation simplicity I.e. KISS principle is generally the preferred engineering approach, and face it: most of the computing world have little or no interest in frugal install 'tricks'. But I for one continue to often prefer not saving some Linux sessions - and overlayfs results are good enough for my needs anyway, and not likely to suddenly no longer work as a layering methodology.

The main thing to watch out for is software updates maxing out the memory. LibreOffice can be especially brutal.

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by Clarity »

This max'ing out memory should not occur assuming there is a matching RAM SWAP implementation in place.

I have often thought of, if it is/was appropriate to suggest to distro creators to publish what they foresee as a "Recommended RAM" for their productions. I know that several have done so, but many avoid this.

The RAM considerations in any OS has, for years, been a point of discussion and as such it shows, again, in this thread.

In the labs of my past, we used a consistent workload (of apps) to determine how to arrive at a RAM sizing to recommend and publish. This would be a problem, here in the forum, as I dont see a way to get an agreeable 'workload' much less have the manpower to run the measurements needed for each of the distros we see on the forum.

As such, a RAM consideration will be of ongoing debates.

Thus, this leads back to the developers who 'may' publish what they feel would be a safe RAM size for their distro(s).

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Re: Wayland in forum distros

Post by geo_c »

Clarity wrote: Sun May 04, 2025 4:31 pm

This max'ing out memory should not occur assuming there is a matching RAM SWAP implementation in place.
---
Thus, this leads back to the developers who 'may' publish what they feel would be a safe RAM size for their distro(s).

Interesting is the fact that I often in the past used a swap partition. However, I found once the swap is used in a significant way, the system becomes so throttled that it's basically unusable until the load is lifted, probably also dependent on the speed of the drive it's writing to, Instead when it came to pups, I used the swapfile option, and found that to be faster. Still not adequate in usability if a really high load was placed on it.

Eventually I obtained all 8GB or 16GB RAM machines, and still usually turning on a swapfile in a pup because the option was available. But came to find that certain KL's like Airedale and Spectr would run just fine with no swap available at ALL (and I didn't know how to enable it in the OS anyway.) I've never filled up the RAM on those two OS's running audio, video, browsers, etc.

However KLV-KDE-Plasma running Wayland is a different story,, and I don't know if Plasma was the deciding factor or not, but that Void-Wayland-Plasma combination would generate huge RAM consumption, filling up to 12GB at times with seeming no high resource applications running. Memory leak or something?

To be clear, I'm never running save-on-demand, I'm doing immediate-write to upper_changes, so it's not an issue of overlay and unwritten changes clogging up the RAM.

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