Mistakes in GUI backup, please fix (Pupsave Backup)

[Governor]

In the GUI backup procedure, there are two serious mistakes:
It is a serious mistake in the GUI to NOT inform the user that a compressed backup cannot be booted from.
It is an error, which causes users to reject Puppy. Developers need to take this type of error seriously.
What does the user do next? They delete Puppy and move on to another distro, never to be heard from again.

Pupsave Backup-Compress.png (174.08 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

The second serious mistake is while the user can name the backup file whatever they like, there is no mention that the backup file must conform to a specific naming convention,
where the first part of the name (including the hyphen), must not be changed, ie. dpupbw64save-BKP.2024.06.21-13.42

Therefore, the user should not be allowed to change the first part of the filename in the dialog box. And this information should appear to the user along with the warning about compressed backups mentioned above.
Cheers!

[geo_c]

In the GUI backup procedure, there are two serious mistakes:
It is a serious mistake in the GUI to NOT inform the user that a compressed backup cannot be booted from.

Yes, a zipped archive must be unzipped first before trying to use it of course.
In your past computing experience have you ever used other zipped files or file systems without unzipping or extracting them first? Why would this zipped archive be any different? It's a zipped backup.

The second serious mistake is while the user can name the backup file whatever they like, there is no mention that the backup file must conform to a specific naming convention,
where the first part of the name (including the hyphen), must not be changed, ie. dpupbw64save-BKP.2024.06.21-13.42

See this post:
viewtopic.php?p=140525#p140525

Therefore, the user should not be allowed to change the first part of the filename in the dialog box. And this information should appear to the user along with the warning about compressed backups mentioned above.
Cheers!

When a filesystem is zipped it can be named anything the user wants, so the savefile naming procedure would be something only applicable to bootable saves and addressed in the intitial save routine, which it is (as I have demonstrated,) and it would be confusing to state that the zipped backup must use a certain naming convention that is in fact not at all a requirement for a zipped backup. When running pupsave-backup it's assumed on their first save that a user RTFM in the first save routine, or else he would not have been able to make a backup to begin with. But of course, you are asking to try and completely eliminate user carelessness. Not gonna happen IMHO.

[Governor]

In the GUI backup procedure, there are two serious mistakes:
It is a serious mistake in the GUI to NOT inform the user that a compressed backup cannot be booted from.

Yes, a zipped archive must be unzipped first before trying to use it of course.
In your past computing experience have you ever used other zipped files or file systems without unzipping or extracting them first? Why would this zipped archive be any different? It's a zipped backup.

The second serious mistake is while the user can name the backup file whatever they like, there is no mention that the backup file must conform to a specific naming convention,
where the first part of the name (including the hyphen), must not be changed, ie. dpupbw64save-BKP.2024.06.21-13.42

See this post:
viewtopic.php?p=140525#p140525

Therefore, the user should not be allowed to change the first part of the filename in the dialog box. And this information should appear to the user along with the warning about compressed backups mentioned above.
Cheers!

When a filesystem is zipped it can be named anything the user wants, so that naming procedure would be something only applicable to bootable saves and addressed in the save routine, which it is (as I have demonstrated,) and it would be confusing to state that the zipped backup must use a certain naming convention that is in fact not at all a requirement for a zipped backup. When running pupsave-backup it's assumed on the first save that a user RTFM in the first save routine, or else he would not have been able to make a backup to begin with. But of course, you are asking to try and completely eliminate user carelessness. Not gonna happen IMHO.

Nothing you say changes the facts as I presented them. Everything I said is true. As I pointed out, these are 2 mistakes in the GUI. If Puppy is to be more than just a hobby OS for core users, user friendliness (and common sense) is needed. Doubling down on not being user-friendly is ridiculous.

[geo_c]

Nothing you say changes the facts as I presented them. Everything I said is true. As I pointed out, these are 2 mistakes in the GUI. If Puppy is to be more than just a hobby OS for core users, user friendliness (and common sense) is needed. Doubling down on not being user-friendly is ridiculous.

I think what we have going on here is a reading comprehension problem, or you are simply not taking the necessary time and effort to understand what is being said.

What you have said is NOT true. Not at all.

1) A zipped backup doesn't require any sort of naming convention, because it's zipped and it can't be booted into it (because it's zipped). When it is unzipped it requires the same naming convention that the original folder or file required. There is nothing suggesting otherwise in these gui's.

2) It's not the job of a sub-routine to explain all of how basic file operations work, I mean things like zipping, copying, pasting, drive mounting, etc. That just makes for extraneous and confusing information.

3) It's not a bug, it's not a mistake, it's a misreading on your part.

[darksun]

@Governor your post made me think and create this post here how I manage my OS backups and restores. Maybe it is an alternative way can be useful to somebody.

[geo_c]

Doubling down on not being user-friendly is ridiculous.

It appears that there is a piece of computing that you don't seem to grasp. Mainly, to use portable operating systems, portable applications, external drive booting, backup routines, restore routines, and file syncing applications, it is quite literally impossible for a user to engage in any of these activities without thinking through their own logic, and the logic of the necessary basic operations like booting, syncing, zipping, unzipping, drive mounting etc,

No user friendly gui is going to change that. There are a zillion ways for any user to mishandle the operations. Portable linux is never going to be "user friendly" in that regard.

Instead, it should WORK, and work well for people who take the time to understand what it's designed to do.

You saying it's a mistake over and over doesn't make it so.

Once you realized you couldn't boot a zipped backup, did ever you attempt to unzip it? I just did it today to test your assertions, and using the Xfe file manager included in Bookworm, I simply right clicked on the zipped backup file and extracted it to a folder named exactly what pupsave backup named it (which xfe shows as option) and booted into it. I didn't have to rename it or anything.

It works GREAT!

[Governor]

Nothing you say changes the facts as I presented them. Everything I said is true. As I pointed out, these are 2 mistakes in the GUI. If Puppy is to be more than just a hobby OS for core users, user friendliness (and common sense) is needed. Doubling down on not being user-friendly is ridiculous.

I think what we have going on here is a reading comprehension problem, or you are simply not taking the necessary time and effort to understand what is being said.

What you have said is NOT true. Not at all.

WRONG!!

1) A zipped backup doesn't require any sort of naming convention, because it's zipped and it can't be booted into it (because it's zipped). When it is unzipped it requires the same naming convention that the original folder or file required. There is nothing suggesting otherwise in these gui's.

The GUI interface is the communication between the OS and the user. This case has nothing to to with zipped files which are not even mentioned.

2) It's not the job of a sub-routine to explain all of how basic file operations work, I mean things like zipping, copying, pasting, drive mounting, etc. That just makes for extraneous and confusing information.

It is the job of the programmer to state what the user can expect when making a choice in a dialog box.

3) It's not a bug, it's not a mistake, it's a misreading on your part.

No, these are mistakes. Failure to properly inform a user of what to expect when required to make a choice is a mistake.

[Governor]

@Governor your post made me think and create this post here how I manage my OS backups and restores. Maybe it is an alternative way can be useful to somebody.

Thanks, that looks interesting and I will check it out.

I would like to clarify, that pursuant to the topic of this thread:
The GUI interface is the communication between the OS and the user and it is the job of the programmer to state what the user can expect when making a choice in a dialog box, especially when a choice can be made that is critical to the prescribed functioning of the OS. Failing to do this means the OS is not user friendly and potential users will be lost; this is guaranteed.

Apparently, some people in this forum believe it is the responsibility of the user to know all repercussions beforehand, and it is therefore not the programmers job to inform the user. That misaligned perspective lacks common sense and is detrimental both to user friendliness and to the flourishing of the OS.
Thanks!

[geo_c]

The GUI interface is the communication between the OS and the user. This case has nothing to to with zipped files which are not even mentioned.

WHERE DOES THE GUI STATE THAT A BACKUP SAVE CAN BE BOOTED INTO AT ALL? (Even though it can if simply left uncompressed and located in the system folder, value added by Puppy)

it doesn't because it's intended as a backup. It's called pupsave-backup, not pupsave-alternate-boot-choice.

It's common practice in Windows, Mac, and all other operating system for a backup to be first RESTORED before being used.

WHEN YOU SAW THAT THE GUI CREATED A TARBALL tar.gz file, did you even once consider unzipping it to try and use it?

Since you feel strongly about this, write the corrected text for the dialog, login to github and change the pupsave-backup source on Woof-CE, and submit a code change.

It is the job of the programmer to state what the user can expect when making a choice in a dialog box.

Oh really.

Why is that when I right click on a file and compress it in Windows Explorer I don't see a dialog telling me that I won't be able to use the file without first uncompressing it?

[Governor]

The GUI interface is the communication between the OS and the user. This case has nothing to to with zipped files which are not even mentioned.

WHERE DOES THE GUI STATE THAT A BACKUP SAVE CAN BE BOOTED INTO AT ALL? (Even though it can if simply left uncompressed and located in the system folder, value added by Puppy)

it doesn't because it's intended as a backup. It's called pupsave-backup, not pupsave-alternate-boot-choice.

It's common practice in Windows, Mac, and all other operating system for a backup to be first RESTORED before being used.

WHEN YOU SAW THAT THE GUI CREATED A TARBALL tar.gz file, did you even once consider unzipping it to try and use it?

Since you feel strongly about this, write the corrected text for the dialog, login to github and change the pupsave-backup source on Woof-CE, and submit a code change.

Hey that is an interesting idea, but I do not think I am the right person to fiddle with it.
The text should indicate that an uncompressed backup can be booted from, and a compressed cannot, so the user can make an informed decision.
The file naming convention should also be mentioned here, so that a user will not inadvertently give the file a name that Puppy does not recognize.

It is the job of the programmer to state what the user can expect when making a choice in a dialog box.

Oh really.

Yes, really.

Why is that when I right click on a file and compress it in Windows Explorer I don't see a dialog telling me that I won't be able to use the file without first uncompressing it?

What is important here is what happens in the Puppy GUI. Fighting against user friendliness really is an absurd endeavor.

[fredx181]

....
Why is that when I right click on a file and compress it in Windows Explorer I don't see a dialog telling me that I won't be able to use the file without first uncompressing it?

Or, e.g. (more extreme example perhaps) say I download a Linux ISO e.g. from Sourceforge and click on it, it doesn't install the OS and doesn't say why or how. What !?
Some things are expected to know-how or to find out how.

[rockedge]

@Governor

I learned to compute on a Teletype 33 connected to a PDP-11.

In the military I had to load diagnostic computer code into a fighter jet's weapon control systems computer line by line of assembly code that's in hexadecimal but had to be converted to octal on the fly and entered with toggle switches and the readout was a row of red lights. Naturally could only be done correctly while the jet engine is running and the jet is cabled to an anchor to hold it in place

Everything was command line until later in MS-DOS and OS/2. I hated Windows and Apple was the "Toys"

So your looking for GUI sympathy....... it's not my priority. Who EVER said what I design has to be "newbie user friendly"?

I may explain how to use it and might not. I figure if your here on this forum you are an advanced user or want to be one.

Ever play around with a mainframe? Zero intuitive is the main concept.

[Governor]

@Governor

I learned to compute on a Teletype 33 connected to a PDP-11.

In the military I had to load diagnostic computer code into a fighter jet's weapon control systems computer line by line of assembly code that's in hexadecimal but had to be converted to octal on the fly and entered with toggle switches and the readout was a row of red lights. Naturally could only be done correctly while the jet engine is running and the jet is cabled to an anchor to hold it in place

Everything was command line until later in MS-DOS and OS/2. I hated Windows and Apple was the "Toys"

So your looking for GUI sympathy....... it's not my priority. Who EVER said what I design has to be "newbie user friendly"?

I may explain how to use it and might not. I figure if your here on this forum you are an advanced user or want to be one.

Ever play around with a mainframe? Zero intuitive is the main concept.

Perfect illustration of why Puppy is a geek-to-geek OS and will NEVER be popular, except among geeks; it has nothing to do with SEO. I am no geek, and I am using Puppy largely by happenstance. Nevertheless, I am trying to make the best of it, and the OS has cost me dearly in time, effort and turmoil, largely because the programmers don't care about user friendly. I am at the point now where catastrophic problems are not regular events, although there are still serious issues; I now have carpal-tunnel syndrome which I never had with Windows and that sucks. I don't want sympathy, I want user-friendly, and that is all.

In the old days when memory was tiny and harddrives were 40MB, programmers were forced to write code as austere as possible due storage limitations. In those days, there was not space for user friendliness. Unfortunately, many older programmers have retained the anti-user friendly mindset like some kind of badge of honor. It isn't. Even more unfortunate is younger programmers are influenced by this anti-user friendly mindset and tend to fall in line with it.

[fredx181]

@Governor

anti-user friendly mindset

Oh, well, it's all about how you look at it, the developer of the "backup save utility" added extra option to create a compressed backup, I'd say that is very user-friendly, not at all "anti".
edit: altogether I think you are too extreme in expecting perfection for user-friendliness, but you can always make suggestions for changes/improvements of course.

[geo_c]

..but I do not think I am the right person to fiddle with it.

That's probably the first true thing you've said in these "Hey waiter! this food isn't any good, I want it cooked like my mom used to do it, and I want it now! What kind of restaurant is this anyway?" posts.

But you should try it anyway, then you have would some idea of what your request requires.

The text should indicate that an uncompressed backup can be booted from, and a compressed cannot, so the user can make an informed decision.
The file naming convention should also be mentioned here, so that a user will not inadvertently give the file a name that Puppy does not recognize.

Wrong again. As I have clearly pointed out already, the naming convention is established in the pupsave creation routine, NOT in the pupsave-backup routine, because the backup is a backup, and booting into one uncompressed is simply an added benefit, not the intent of the backup routine. If it's still not clear, I'll be happy to say it another way:

Is there anything that prevents the user from later changing the name of the original pupsave created by the first save routine which upon savefile creation intentionally doesn't allow the option to alter the prefix portion of the savefile name?

The answer: nothing prevents that except the user excercising a little common sense, in which it should naturally follow that If puppy is looking for savefile names in a certain format, that format should remain unaltered The average user who thinks before hitting the enter key decides not to mess with the format, and If they would like to change the name format, but don't understand the reason for the format, they first ask an intelligent question about it before attempting to mess with it. A Windows User with a little common sense doesn't change the name of a Windows .dll file and then complain to Microsoft that there was no gui explaining to them not to do that.

What is important here is what happens in the Puppy GUI. Fighting against user friendliness really is an absurd endeavor.

The point of the question I asked is in direct reference to what the puppy gui should do. So the answer will shed some light on why the pupsave-backup routine doesn't provide a long explanation of savefile names.

You do want to understand why that's not the focus of the pupsave-backup, right?

[geo_c]

I am using Puppy largely by happenstance.

So, you turned your computer on one day, and it suddenly displayed a foreign boot screen loading puppy.sfs system files? I wish it would have been that easy for me. I had to download an iso using Windows and burn a CD to get my first running puppy system. I wouldn't even be able to do that now, I've been installing linux frrom usb loaded bootable OS sticks for at least a decade.

happenstance? I needed a good laugh today. Such food for the soul...

I want user-friendly, and that is all.

in other words, "I want a casserole like my mom used to make, and I want it now! Waiter, what kind of restaurant is this anyway?"

Nevertheless, I am trying to make the best of it, and the OS has cost me dearly in time, effort and turmoil, largely because the programmers don't care about user friendly.

[williwaw]

Since you feel strongly about this, write the corrected text for the dialog, login to github and change the pupsave-backup source on Woof-CE, and submit a code change.

Hey that is an interesting idea, but I do not think I am the right person to fiddle with it. 🤔

As fred mentioned, you can always make suggestions at woof-ce github, or you can also propose code changes as geo suggests.

My guess is if you submit a potential code change, (even if it takes more time for the dev to help you get it right than it would for him to do it himself), you will be appreciated as a new contributor to woof-ce

If you simply make suggestions for more work to be done by the devs, it will be priortized by the (volunteer) dev at woof-ce and may never happen.

I doubt if any thing moaned about at the forum about an older app, possibly written by someone who may not be there anymore, gets much notice at all by the devs at woof-ce unless it happens to be a great new idea or fixing something to help get the most recent puppy working acceptably well.

[bigpup]

I somewhat agree with governor.

From the beginning of producing Puppy programs.
The program would provide information, when you got to the part of the program, that information was needed, to understand what to do.
Or the program would have a help, you could access, and it would provided needed information.

Pupsave Backup program has a help and this information should be in it.

Really the programs help needs updated to reflect how backup saves can be used after the recent changes made to the boot process and using saves.

Before nothing with .bkp could be in the name to even be seen to use.

This is what the help provides:
.

Screenshot(6).jpg (99.27 KiB) Viewed 832 times

.
.
That force the init script, is not needed in Puppy versions that have the newest changes to the use of saves, by the boot process.
No need now, to even edit the name, removing .bkp and its date info.
.
.
Why do we care what other operating systems do or do not do?

[wizard]

The "Getting Started and System Requirements" forum section has two post to help users understand Pupsave Backup. It's unfortunate that more users don't use that resource.

viewforum.php?f=184

wizard

[Governor]

The "Getting Started and System Requirements" forum section has two post to help users understand Pupsave Backup. It's unfortunate that more users don't use that resource.

viewforum.php?f=184

wizard

IMHO:
Great there are resources available for study in one's spare time, but that does not help at the very moment when a user is faced with a choice and needs a brief guidance.
The only people that can hold (all??) that knowledge in their head are seasoned long-time Puppy users, not ordinary users, and certainly not newbies. And as with language skills, if you don't use it, you lose it. So, even seasoned Puppy users must continually keep their knowledge fresh.

It is long overdue to bring Puppy into the modern age. An analogy: When people buy a car, they expect to get in, turn the key, start the car and drive. They do not expect to have to study a manual before starting the engine, and study yet another manual before they start driving.

To deny users important information where and when they need it and tell them to RTFM, is archaic and counter-productive.

I observe the following prevailing attitude among many Puppy aficionados:
1. New users can learn the hard way, as I did, and why should newbies have it any easier.
2. This is the way Puppy is, it is the Puppy tradition, and should not be changed.

Is this to remain the vision for Puppy going forward?

[Governor]

@Governor

anti-user friendly mindset

Oh, well, it's all about how you look at it, the developer of the "backup save utility" added extra option to create a compressed backup, I'd say that is very user-friendly, not at all "anti".
edit: altogether I think you are too extreme in expecting perfection for user-friendliness, but you can always make suggestions for changes/improvements of course.

Extreme? No, user-friendly - not extreme. When I made my first backup, I did not click on the compress button, and my thinking was I had plenty of space and did not see a reason to compress. When I made my second backup, I though ok, it looks like I am going to have many backups, and my drive is only 500 GB, so I will compress this backup. The text on the screen is misleading because it does not indicate that the backup will not be bootable if I choose to compress. There is no disrespect to the person who made the dialog box to suggest this omission is a mistake; that was then, this is now. It is a mistake NOT to inform the user that the backup will not be bootable.

It doesn't matter if 100 people raise their hand and say, "But the user is supposed to know, so it is the user's own fault." That is just not so, and that kind of thinking is hurting Puppy, not helping it.

[Governor]

Since you feel strongly about this, write the corrected text for the dialog, login to github and change the pupsave-backup source on Woof-CE, and submit a code change.

Hey that is an interesting idea, but I do not think I am the right person to fiddle with it.

As fred mentioned, you can always make suggestions at woof-ce github, or you can also propose code changes as geo suggests.

My guess is if you submit a potential code change, (even if it takes more time for the dev to help you get it right than it would for him to do it himself), you will be appreciated as a new contributor to woof-ce

If you simply make suggestions for more work to be done by the devs, it will be prioritized by the (volunteer) dev at woof-ce and may never happen.

I doubt if any thing moaned about at the forum about an older app, possibly written by someone who may not be there anymore, gets much notice at all by the devs at woof-ce unless it happens to be a great new idea or fixing something to help get the most recent puppy working acceptably well.

It is my hope that a developer who is already on the project at github will take notice (or be made aware) of these two issues that are pointed out in this thread, and add the appropriate texts to alert the user of the consequences of a compressed backup and alert the user of the file-naming convention for backups. Thanks for your kind words and advice, but I think taking this to github myself is a little more than I can handle right now. It is also my hope that developers and seasoned Puppy users will take an active interest and take user-friendliness more seriously.

Cheers!

[bigpup]

@Governor

If a change is made to the information provided.

What do you think it should say?

how about providing a information statement the way you want it.

I can look into maybe getting it changed.

The info statements are usually in the script file that is the program.

Should be easy to just add more information at that point in the script.

[peebee]

Submit changes you suggest:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... ave-backup

[fredx181]

Submit changes you suggest:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... ave-backup

Something like this perhaps;
(I'm no good with proposing changes to woof-CE by pull request)

Screenshot.png (29.75 KiB) Viewed 670 times

On line 151: Note: Then, to be be able to use it as a pupsave, you need to decompress it first."
(change as preferred)

pupsave-backup.gz

/usr/sbin/pupsave-backup Remove fake.gz and make executable

(11.51 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

[Governor]

Submit changes you suggest:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... ave-backup

Something like this perhaps;
(I'm no good with proposing changes to woof-CE by pull request)
Screenshot.png

On line 151: Note: Then, to be be able to use it as a pupsave, you need to decompress it first."
(change as preferred)
pupsave-backup.gz

I would suggest something like this:

Pupsave Backup-Compress-added text.png (180.22 KiB) Viewed 629 times

Perhaps not eloquent, but it is brief and lets the user know 3 things:
1. A compressed backup cannot be booted from
2. An uncompressed backup can be booted from.
3. A compressed backup must be decompressed before it can be booted from.
If someone has another suggestion, suggest away. (I forgot the colon after Note.)

[Governor]

@Governor

If a change is made to the information provided.

What do you think it should say?

how about providing a information statement the way you want it.

I can look into maybe getting it changed.

The info statements are usually in the script file that is the program.

Should be easy to just add more information at that point in the script.

I saw your post after I already answered here:
https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 11#p140811

[Governor]

Submit changes you suggest:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... ave-backup

149 May take a bit longer but save some space."

How would you add this on a new line; would it take line 150 and push all subsequent lines up one? I am guessing the " would end the 2nd line of text.
Note: Compressed pupsave backups cannot be booted from.

[fredx181]

@Governor Your version says what it can not do, but what to do then ? Please explain !

How would you add this on a new line; would it take line 150 and push all subsequent lines up one? I am guessing the " would end the 2nd line of text.

Easiest to figure out for you and to explain for me: have look at the attachment (lines 150 151) from me (pupsave-backup): https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 97#p140797

[wizard]

"Compressed backups must be decompressed before use"

wizard