The future of the forum and about the structure

[mikewalsh]

@Chelsea80 :-

Hey, don't "knock yourself", mate. Your ideas are just as valid as those of anyone else. That's the great thing about graphic design - a VERY long-standing hobby of mine. The sky's the limit where the design aspect is concerned.

I've always liked the moody, 'atmospheric' design paradigm. I'm picturing a 3 parts transparent image of something like a border collie, romping across a grassy meadow as the page background, for example... And that's just ONE idea. MY idea....which is totally subjective anyway.

You submit as many ideas as ya like. This is one area where ordinary members can show the rest of us just what they ARE capable of..!

Mike.

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

I was thinking of something like this, Erik...

[Click to enlarge:-]

Bear in mind I put this together in my usual PhotoScape, so.....this is but a PNG image. I presume something similar can be constructed with HTML/CSS, etc. Does HTML permit the use of a "background" image? Because I was thinking this rather handsome young chap - a border collie, in his prime - would look rather good!

The wording can, of course, be changed/altered/moved around to suit. Nowt's 'set in stone' at this stage. As-is, you may not even like it! This IS just a demo.

It's only an idea, it's true, but it serves to illustrate the sort of thing that's been rattling around my mostly empty skull for the last few hours....

Mike.

[williwaw]

Edit: eric posted first

[rockedge]

@mikewalsh Yes we can use background images.....I like this design and could be made with a limited amount of CSS.

This text is also good piece to start with:

Welcome to Our Forum Landing Page

Below you'll find links to our various offerings, Puppy, KL, Fatdog, EasyOS, DebianDogs and
many helpful and knowledgeable members to answer questions and get you started.
Adopt your animal TODAY, click one of the links below to vist their section of the forum.
Or Click now to visit the front page!

[williwaw]

Wiz57 language, thats got my vote. it's casual and has the puppy spirit!

https://puppylinux.com/pupLP/ looks good for layout. maybe only need the half above
Puppy Distributions
Explore the diverse variety of distros

[wiak]

<!-- Core theme CSS (includes Bootstrap)-->

Despite the fact I used to handcraft multi column fluid auto-arranging html sites for years, nowadays I always use some thing based on Bootsrap/templates; even my tinylinux.info blog involves that - easy to assemble and maintain (I use git but don't need it) without sweat. So professional looking and versatile. But simple html is fine if people think that is better. Do most people here realise how good bootstrap is I wonder?

[bigpup]

Looks like the opinion of bigpup and wiak are completely the opposite (extreme right wing and extreme left wing ).
(simply said, wiak advocates for equality of the distributions and bigpup for "Puppy only").

Do not even start trying to determine what I think.
Do not put your words in my mouth!!!!!!!!!

I do not care what is on this forum. Repeat I do not care!!!!!!

What I care about, is someone coming to this forum, and not getting confused, about what it is or what it is providing!

Being able to understand, where to look for information or where to post a question.

I have already been asked in the past.

Are all the Linux OS's listed on the forum Puppy Linux?

Why would someone need to ask that?

That is confusion, that no one should have, when looking at this forum.

So the changes that get done need to keep this confusion to a minimum!!!!!!!!

Example:
What is Fatdog topic first post.

If you are an existing Puppy Linux users, it is important to know that while the general ideas and concepts are the same and would apply to both Puppy and Fatdog, the details are different (e.g. the boot parameters). Here is a quick summary of the main differences.

So I would have another main section that lists the other Linux OS's, something about what they are, and why on the Puppy Forum, for a tittle..

Something as simple as:
Linux distributions that are similar to Puppy Linux using some of the same principles of operation.
Or
Linux distributions that are similar to Puppy Linux

all in their own specific section under the main section tittle.

Forum now has these separate sections, but no specific info tittle in a main area they are under, as to what they are.
They are just different names like all other OS's on this forum.

The top main section provides the info that stuff in here is Puppy Linux. (Puppy Linux Main is it's tittle)

Why not do the same, a main section that has all the other different Linux OS's in it.

Then a new to forum person would understand that these are not 100% Puppy Linux OS's.
But other OS's they should look at and maybe try using.
They offer something a little different.

[williwaw]

@bigpup
Some visitors may make assumptions, some may not.
The landing page purpose, afaik, is to address your concerns about helping new visitor orientation. Having the new visitor begin by making choices when entering the site will help make distinctions between projects.
If distinctions are not obvious to the viewer on a simple landing page, there is probally not much you can add to the long board index which will be of much help.

Perhaps you will propose the language above the Puppy button on the landing page?

Non-puppy project descriptions should be left to the respective devs..

[Clarity]

For WoofCE PUPs and some of the other distros, when one gets to the pristine desktop of a distro, there is a webpage that emerges in the mix. That webpage should be adequate and good offering that each individual can show as they attempt to explain in a simple way its distro's mission.

EAch distro author can show this in each area to be front-ended helpful to those un-familiar coming into Puppyland's PLDF webpage.

This means that the work to describe is already done. The need is merely to show it in each's sub-area making it easy for new/experienced users.

I think.

[amethyst]

The Board Index page looks nice now IMHO.

[wiak]

Each distro now have their own Main area. What internal organisation of the KL main area, for example, is future work the KL team will do - that is not a concern of the FatDog team or Debiandog team, or Puppy Linux team, or the EasyOS team. What each such team determines they want to describe and inform about their own distros is up to them. For example, BarryK looks after what he wants to include or describe in his EasyOS section.

Previous distro structure was based on the previous structural situation in the forum though, but for the moment, rockedge has altered KL structure as an initial stab (a pretty good one I might add) and for demo purposes. In practice, I believe what you see under Puppy Linux main area will tend to be similar, category-wise, for some at least of the other distros. House Training, for example, is needed for any or all distros.

The main and sometimes only reason that a distro appears on this forum nowadays is simply that some forum participant decided to make it and for one reason or another have not created a separate individual distro forum for their creation. Some of the resulting distros may be large in size, many are small and designed with efficient resource usage in mind. Some are related in some way or another to other forum distros; some were not created with any relationship in mind though the majority can be used in frugal installation form. It is up to the creator or creators to provide whatever description, purpose, information they so wish and choose to.

There is in practice no definition that fits all forum distros fundamentally, or for many cases was even intended, except that they are all Linux distros and created by people who like to use this forum for their discussion. They are different designs and whether they do or don't share any characteristics is purely up to how they were designed, and on the intention of their creator(s). Most, but not all can be frugally installed and whilst most relied on aufs for their layer construction, some always used overlayfs and entirely different multi-layer structures (and plenty of outside forum distros have relied on aufs for their frugal install capabilities too). Don't waste time trying to imagine some mould they all fit into. They don't or maybe won't tomorrow anyway.

Of course all Linux distros in the world share many characteristics but generally have their own uniqueness or there would be no point in their existence. At the end of the day the only relevant definition of what a distro is or was intended for is that of its designer(s).

[wiak]

In KL universe we definitely at last need to decide locations for some somewhat invisible releases, and I refer particularly to Sofiya's excellent KL KDE offerings. These internal KL matters will take time depending when we get round to the work required, but the new forum structure is a delight and highly motivating overall.

[d-pupp]

I like the new forum layout. It is easy to navigate. Is it just me or it is a bit faster too??
I also like the idea of replacing the Puppy web site with a simple landing page. There are lots of good ideas being posted.

Thanks to everyone.

[fredx181]

Looks like the opinion of bigpup and wiak are completely the opposite (extreme right wing and extreme left wing ).
(simply said, wiak advocates for equality of the distributions and bigpup for "Puppy only").

Do not even start trying to determine what I think.
Do not put your words in my mouth!!!!!!!!!
...
...

I apologize if I interpreted wrongly your earlier words, I'm not going to exactly quote any of these here, but I really saw that you wrote things like 'this forum should be only about Puppy', 'it's a 'free ride' for the developers of other OS's to be part of this forum' and 'other distributions than Puppy should create their own forum'.
Didn't sound like what you say now :

I do not care what is on this forum. Repeat I do not care!!!!!!

[step]

Example:
What is Fatdog topic first post.

If you are an existing Puppy Linux users, it is important to know that while the general ideas and concepts are the same and would apply to both Puppy and Fatdog, the details are different (e.g. the boot parameters). Here is a quick summary of the main differences.

Yes, and the quoted paragraph continues with a link to the Fatdog online QA answer "Fatdog64 primer for Puppy Linux users", https://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/f ... index.html (source topic https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=514).

[Clarity]

@step, YES.

And for the @fatdog team, this new PLDF, too will require some evaluation of its directions, contributions, and layouts will be needed for the forum subarea they occupy.

This, of course, is what @wiak has already stated to the general forum's development teams.

WOW! 2025 is really taking off. These approaches are great steps to increase productivity thru our perceived improvement is corralling distro information and overall forum layouts.

[darksun]

I literally just posted in the other topic, just while you were writing this. I will do a copy paste then.

I like the idea of a landing page.
In making it I would emphasize the benefits and core advantages of our distros.
In my opinion this section should be seen at glance, at first, or at least highlighted in a way it would be unlikely a new visitor would not read it.
This is in order to increase the chances a new user would take the time and effort to download it/them and try it/them and as well as to hopefully join the forum.
In the contrary, the lack of this incentive, could lessen the chances of the above.

The content should be short and concise yet straight to the core points , the selling points.

Below just an example on how I would do it

(centered)

Image an operating system that
- extremely light in resources (icon of something light, feather?)
- extremely fast, it loads into ram (icon of a running dog, similar to @fredx181 )
- likely includes by default the tools you need (icon of a toolbox)
- portable and ready to be used anytime, anywhere, without need of installing (icon of a suitcase)
- and so on

scroll down

- on the left side some quotes of real positive feedback from old and/or current forum users
- on the right side the link to "join with a simple click our wonderful forum to download your next favorite linux distro"

just some ideas and concepts.

Another thing I would discuss is, if necessary, to find a way, maybe in the landing page, to highlight that despite the "cute" distro names (puppy, dog, and so on) our distros are professional and valid. I am sure there are plenty of people who can see the name of our distros and have false idea, a misconception, the prejudgement of a "toy" linux distro, without giving it a go at all, thinking that probably it is a waste of time.

[Governor]

I literally just posted in the other topic, just while you were writing this. I will do a copy paste then.

I like the idea of a landing page.
In making it I would emphasize the benefits and core advantages of our distros.
In my opinion this section should be seen at glance, at first, or at least highlighted in a way it would be unlikely a new visitor would not read it.
This is in order to increase the chances a new user would take the time and effort to download it/them and try it/them and as well as to hopefully join the forum.
In the contrary, the lack of this incentive, could lessen the chances of the above.

The content should be short and concise yet straight to the core points , the selling points.

Below just an example on how I would do it

I 100% agree with a landing page. Additionally, there should be a link to a page with a contact form where a user can give feedback of their experience with the OS's promoted here. Not for ordinary questions, that's what the forum is for, but for people who are dissatisfied and have decided to move on to another OS. As it is now, people who try the OS and are dissatisfied and move on are rarely heard from. Most importantly, any real issues submitted on the contact form should be taken seriously by the developers.

One significant issue with the Puppy GUI is when creating a backup, the user is informed that they can save space by compressing the backup.
I wonder how many times this happens:
A user tries Puppy and when they finally get the configuration and settings to stick, they say ok, I'd better make a backup.
They make the backup and are told they can save space by compressing their backup, so ok, why not save space, and go for it.
Something goes wrong, and the user thinks, wow it's a good thing I made a backup.
They boot and guess what, no backup is available.
So they made a backup, the OS (for one reason or another) went south, and the backup failed.
It is a serious (and absurd) mistake in the GUI to NOT inform the user that a compressed backup cannot be booted from.
It is an error, which causes users to reject Puppy. Developers need to take this type of error seriously.
What does the user do next? They delete Puppy and move on to another distro, never to be heard from again.

Pupsave Backup-Compress.png (174.14 KiB) Viewed 1632 times

I tried several Linux distros before landing here, and was dissatisfied with all of them due to significant issues with each of them.
This is a significant issue. It was pure luck that I had already made an uncompressed backup beforehand. If I did not have an uncompressed backup, when my Puppy went south, I would have been unable to boot my backup and I would have thought, this OS stinks, the backup doesn't even work, and rejected Puppy as an OS, never to return.

(centered)

Image an operating system that
- extremely light in resources (icon of something light, feather?)
- extremely fast, it loads into ram (icon of a running dog, similar to @fredx181 )
- likely includes by default the tools you need (icon of a toolbox)
- portable and ready to be used anytime, anywhere, without need of installing (icon of a suitcase)
- and so on

scroll down

- on the left side some quotes of real positive feedback from old and/or current forum users
- on the right side the link to "join with a simple click our wonderful forum to download your next favorite linux distro"

just some ideas and concepts.

Another thing I would discuss is, if necessary, to find a way, maybe in the landing page, to highlight that despite the "cute" distro names (puppy, dog, and so on) our distros are professional and valid. I am sure there are plenty of people who can see the name of our distros and have false idea, a misconception, the prejudgement of a "toy" linux distro, without giving it a go at all, thinking that probably it is a waste of time.

[dimkr]

should be taken seriously

"Should" is a very strong word, Puppy is a do-ocracy: developers choose if, when and what to work on. The Puppy homepage must not generate unrealistic expectations.

Moreover, most of these developers are amateurs (not professional developers who either work or worked in the field) or professionals that don't do their hobby development with the same quality standards as the development work they do for living. You can call it 'professionally developed' but it's an empty statement because none of the processes, roles, etc' are actually there.

[rockedge]

@dimkr I'm a Gaffer or call it a First Lighting Tech,...setting light for cinematography. I wanted to study computer engineering and software since I was a kid. Life got in the way and I ended up in the military then the movie and television making business.

I'll give you a tip.........act as if.

That's the trick. I think....wait....believe.......some of my assemblies are as good as yours. Pretty confident it competes.

See @dimkr that's me acting as if.

[bigpup]

Another thing I would discuss is, if necessary, to find a way, maybe in the landing page, to highlight that despite the "cute" distro names (puppy, dog, and so on) our distros are professional and valid. I am sure there are plenty of people who can see the name of our distros and have false idea, a misconception, the prejudgement of a "toy" linux distro, without giving it a go at all, thinking that probably it is a waste of time.

There is nothing wrong with the names used for distros on this forum.

Linux has been using strange unusual names for distros from the beginning of Linux.

Even Linux is a strange name to use, just like Windows, MSDOS, MAC, Android, etc.........

There are so many Linux OS's, that coming up with a name to use, is actually a problem.

Go look at the list of names of Linux distributions on distrowatch.com.

Just a few:
EndeavourOS
CachyOS
Pop!_OS
TUXEDO
Tails
Parrot
Rocky
Red Hat
Endless
Emmabuntüs
Rhino
siduction
etc........

The name Puppy, when I first saw it years ago, made me take a look at what it was.
The name was a hook, to get me to look at it.

[wiak]

Another thing I would discuss is, if necessary, to find a way, maybe in the landing page, to highlight that despite the "cute" distro names (puppy, dog, and so on) our distros are professional and valid. I am sure there are plenty of people who can see the name of our distros and have false idea, a misconception, the prejudgement of a "toy" linux distro, without giving it a go at all, thinking that probably it is a waste of time.

There is nothing wrong with the names used for distros on this forum.

Linux has been using strange unusual names for distros from the beginning of Linux.

Even Linux is a strange name to use, just like Windows, MSDOS, MAC, Android, etc.........

There are so many Linux OS's, that coming up with a name to use, is actually a problem.

Go look at the list of names of Linux distributions on distrowatch.com.

Just a few:
EndeavourOS
CachyOS
Pop!_OS
TUXEDO
Tails
Parrot
Rocky
Red Hat
Endless
Emmabuntüs
Rhino
siduction
etc........

The name Puppy, when I first saw it years ago, made me take a look at what it was.
The name was a hook, to get me to look at it.

That is just your individual view of the name, which is fine. However, I agree with the danger of perspective pointed out in this thread by darksun. As I said, I've had the Puppy as a toy distro perspective, because of its cute name and logo emphasis, expressed to me by many students of Linux more generally over many years past. Personally I liked using Puppy between around 2008 to 2012, but at that time when I contributed to its P_apps and utilities I also knew, or at least myself also felt, that there was a negative aspect to Puppy's cute cuddly name image, and technical single user distro type that avoided resource permission sophisticated safety policies.

Anyway, we have to live with it but should better emphasize technical quality to counter the cute amateur view that many (and certainly not all) have of Puppy Linux itself. Believe what you like, but better safe than sorry. Most of us don't want a cute toy Linux for the majority of our computing needs. Names and general descriptions are important in image making and for professional respect building.

[amethyst]

Puppy Linux is a great name and has built up an exceptional reputation over the years because of its excellence and place in the Linux community. Compare that to a dull nonsensical name like KL (Kennel Linux?) which brand still needs to be established (this takes time and effort and excellence). Luckily for the other distributions. they can drag along on the coattails of a well-established brand like Puppy (sharing the same forum and all that). It's a huge advantage for these lesser known distributions.

[darksun]

That is just your individual view of the name, which is fine. However, I agree with the danger of perspective pointed out in this thread by darksun. As I said, I've had the Puppy as a toy distro perspective, because of its cute name and logo emphasis, expressed to me by many students of Linux more generally. Personally I liked using Puppy between around 2008 to 2012, but at that time when I contributed to its P_apps and utilities I also knew, or at least myself also felt, that there was a negative aspect to Puppy's cute cuddly name image, and technical single user distro type that avoided resource permission sophisticated safety policies.

This is why I believe this should be addressed in the landing page (or elsewhere could it be?) with both a professional like design and icons and a clear statement in a high visibility place where it is unlikely a new user would miss the message that despite the "cute" name this is a professional distribution.

@amethyst you say

Puppy Linux is a great name and has built up an exceptional reputation over the years because of its excellence and place in the Linux community

this can be true for users who are not new to the Linux world in general. We should broaden the target audience also to newish and new users. It does not cost much of an additional effort putting a clear sentence in the landing page and as well as giving a design look that hints the professional, not amateur/toy, nature of the operating system.

[amethyst]

With that "toy look" (whatever that means), Puppy has built up a great reputation. We'll keep that well-established and well-known look of Puppy Linux, thank you very much.

[darksun]

With that "toy look" (whatever that means), Puppy has built up a great reputation. We'll keep that well-established and well-known look ofr Puppy Linux, thank you very much.

I am not saying we need to change/amend anything, but to give hints to new users that do not know already the great reputation of our operating system that is worth to spend some time to know them better. The way in which this should be done is up to debate, mine are just ideas and opinion, I am talking about "a sentence" , "fonts" , "nice professional icons in the landing page". That is all. You are welcome

[amethyst]

With that "toy look" (whatever that means), Puppy has built up a great reputation. We'll keep that well-established and well-known look ofr Puppy Linux, thank you very much.

I am not saying we need to change/amend anything, but to give hints to new users that do not know already the great reputation of our operating system that is worth to spend some time to know them better. The way in which this should be done is up to debate, mine are just ideas and opinion, I am talking about "a sentence" , "fonts" , "nice professional icons in the landing page". That is all. You are welcome

I prefer that they keep the Puppy section as is as well as the Puppy logo of the forum itself as this will be beneficial to all distributions on the forum (established and known brand coming over years).

[darksun]

With that "toy look" (whatever that means), Puppy has built up a great reputation. We'll keep that well-established and well-known look ofr Puppy Linux, thank you very much.

I am not saying we need to change/amend anything, but to give hints to new users that do not know already the great reputation of our operating system that is worth to spend some time to know them better. The way in which this should be done is up to debate, mine are just ideas and opinion, I am talking about "a sentence" , "fonts" , "nice professional icons in the landing page". That is all. You are welcome

I prefer that they keep the Puppy section as is as well as the Puppy logo of the forum itself as this will be beneficial to all distributions on the forum (established and known brand coming over years).

@amethyst it looks like there is a misunderstanding between us. I am not saying to change puppy linux's logo. I am referring about ideas for the landing page. When I talk about icons I am not referring to logos but to icons to put into the landing page bullet points, something like this for instance. And , when talking about the bullet points, which by the way are already there in the current https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/ , my proposal is to put an highlight about the fact that our distros, despite their "cute" names, are professional and valid ones.

[wiak]

Puppy Linux is a great name and has built up an exceptional reputation over the years because of its excellence and place in the Linux community. Compare that to a dull nonsensical name like KL (Kennel Linux?) which brand still needs to be established (this takes time and effort and excellence). Luckily for the other distributions. they can drag along on the coattails of a well-established brand like Puppy (sharing the same forum and all that). It's a huge advantage for these lesser known distributions.

Absolute rubbish, but keep living in your dream. There are not huge crowds of people even using this forum - what exactly is this claimed 'advantage' to forum distros in that?

Reality is that some of us contribute new ideas and up to date work in order to help the forum survive best we can. Whether we can succeed in that is up to the outside crowds, not any of us here.

This recent forum restructure gives some hope of more overall exposure, more possible active development efforts, without which there only remains old coat Tails in a world that has plenty elsewhere.

[wiak]

With that "toy look" (whatever that means), Puppy has built up a great reputation. We'll keep that well-established and well-known look of Puppy Linux, thank you very much.

Actual Puppy developers will keep or change whatever look they want to. Purely up to them. I certainly don't believe it was a 'toy look' of Puppy that gave it a great reputation, and not during the many years I often used it anyway.

Again - nothing stands still; old looks fade; keep up with the times I suggest. That message is for all forum distros. Don't rest on your laurels/ old reputation one way or the other. Otherwise expect to lose interested parties of course.