Running Puppy Linux Backup Question (solved)

[JusGellin]

I want to have this made clear.

When a Puppy Linux backup is made from the menu and then selected on a boot,
If a Save2Flash is made during that time,
Is it the backup file that gets the save or is it the dpupbw64save in the case of BookwormPup?

Or is the only way to make the dpupbw64save save is to rename the backup to that name again?
I think I probably have answered my own question.

Thanks

[Clarity]

Hello @JusGellin and Happy New Year.

I want to offer an idea that you might find helpful in understanding.

Years ago, I looked at the idea of backup'ing as it relates ONLY to this forum distro's offerings.

As you and many others KNOW, I only run distros where I boot the forum developer's distro offering via their presented ISO/IMG file.

A forum distro comprises a combination of a never changing ISO file and any persistence (save-session) file-folder that accompanies. THAT'S ALL THERE IS! ... Simple!

As such, as long as I have a distro's ISO file and the sessions that pertain to it, I have a complete running distro. This IS A FRUGAL operation!!! So, I want to emphasize that this forum's distros make this possible with how the distros are designed and presented on the forum. Again, they offer us a VERY SIMPLE design. ISO+Session is a running frugal system.

OK, understanding, as we do, this fact(s), the ONLY new/changing things users do are SAVED in the Session files that the distro's operation produces. The beauty now is that the ONLY thing that needs to be saved, are the SESSION files. The ISO file never changes, but any system change done while using the distro the session is in constant change, per se. So, the ONLY thing I backup for ALL of the distros that are run on a given PC, is its Session folder on its Persistence partition. I have no need to backup a PUP forum distro. I only need to backup the Persistence partition.

This is why I do NOT do individual distro system backups for forum distros. The effort to do so and the effort to maintain them, much less the efforts in backup technologies to use, I DONT MAKE for any system on the forum.

The developers of this many-year productions of forum distros have made this kind of operations simple to understand and to maintain.

My 2 backup requirements per PC is only addressing:

1. systems user data which is separate from

2. Persistence's Session-folder contents

There are many many backup solutions available from various offerings over the past 40 years with various many/extensions to keep the backups contained within.
So, my operation is simple to reproduce any forum distro or all if necessary.
If I can offer some things to consider, consider what your backup objective is, what backup format and extensions are universal (as backup disappear, change how they do it, or lose developer support from time to time); thus universal understandable backup formats is an important decision to consider...NOT the program's name or where it comes from. So using any backup that does NOT use ANY propriety developer efforts are the best, for me, to build into my selections of what I use and how I plan backup duties.

I offer this as information that might help you as you continue to process how to build a process of recovery you are aiming for.

Its not the backup that I plan for, its the recovery!

This post is merely a FYI

[geo_c]

Or is the only way to make the dpupbw64save save is to rename the backup to that name again?
I think I probably have answered my own question.

Thanks

save2flash I understand saves to the current save file/folder, not the backup in most pups, but your question sounds as if you mean running save2flash while the backup is being made, and in that case it might catch things that are written to current save concurrently with the backup routine running, that is if pupsavebackup even allows such a scenario.

You're probably not suggesting that scenario, though the question is a bit unclear to me.

The way to start using a new save is simple, run pupsavebackup and make a backup, rename it without the BKP extensions in the name, but of course not exactly the same name as your current save, then reboot and choose the newly created one. The name has to start with dpupbw64save- but it can end with any non special characters.

So my backups are renamed to be chosen as boot like these:

Code: Select all

dpupbw64save-01geostudio1-clean
dpupbw64save-02geostudio1-hplip

etc....

[JusGellin]

save2flash I understand saves to the current save file/folder, not the backup in most pups, but your question sounds as if you mean running save2flash while the backup is being made, and in that case it might catch things that are written to current save concurrently with the backup routine running, that is if pupsavebackup even allows such a scenario.

You're probably not suggesting that scenario, though the question is a bit unclear to me.

The way to start using a new save is simple, run pupsavebackup and make a backup, rename it without the BKP extensions in the name, but of course not exactly the same name as your current save, then reboot and choose the newly created one. The name has to start with dpupbw64save- but it can end with any non special characters.

So my backups are renamed to be chosen as boot like these:

Code: Select all

dpupbw64save-01geostudio1-clean
dpupbw64save-02geostudio1-hplip

etc....

That's how I thought it was supposed to be and that's how I've used the backups by renaming them the original save name.

But this time I thought I would just select the backup when it rebooted.
Then I made a change and allowed a save when I rebooted.
If I first select the backup that I changed, I see the change I made.
If I again reboot and select 1 or the original save, I don't see the change.

So it seem to save2flash to whatever savefolder is selected for boot.
But that's not supposed to be the way it is supposed to work, or am I looking at it wrong?

If it is in fact working like I see it, it looks like this is a way to make a backup just to do testing that just keeps changes made with the backup.
I also made a change in the backup saved and made a backup of the backup. It obligingly made a new backup that had just the change made for the backup.
The original #1 selection didn't have any of these changes.

Hmm, interesting.

[d-pupp]

@JusGellin I see your confusion. This may help clear it up. All save file / folders and the backup of a save file / folder are the same. The only difference is that a backup is a snapshot of the current save file / folder. The purpose of a backup is to restore your system to a previous known state.
So if you boot a backup save and make changes it's not really a backup anymore. Now it's your new save file / folder. As such save2flash will write any change you make to it.

Best practice : Save file / folder and backups are separate don't mix them.

[esos]

Sofar I know none of puppy linux has auto-backup feature.
You have to do it manually, just in case something wrong with your current save session, you just made.
Save2flash is only offer you to "save" or "not to save" your current session you just made.

[JusGellin]

@JusGellin I see your confusion. This may help clear it up. All save file / folders and the backup of a save file / folder are the same. The only difference is that a backup is a snapshot of the current save file / folder. The purpose of a backup is to restore your system to a previous known state.
So if you boot a backup save and make changes it's not really a backup anymore. Now it's your new save file / folder. As such save2flash will write any change you make to it.

Best practice : Save file / folder and backups are separate don't mix them.

I understand that.

Best practice : Save file / folder and backups are separate don't mix them.

That's probably a good plan.
I think I now recall seeing that some would boot into different backups that served different purposes like banking etc to isolate what they were running.
Thanks

Sofar I know none of puppy linux has auto-backup feature.
You have to do it manually, just in case something wrong with your current save session, you just made.
Save2flash is only offer you to "save" or "not to save" your current session you just made.

That's true. I was manually backing up through the menu of BookwormPup64_10.0.9
I alway like having that ability to backup like this. That's a great feature I use a lot.
Thanks

[d-pupp]

I think I now recall seeing that some would boot into different backups that served different purposes like banking etc to isolate what they were running.

Yes I do this as well. I make a small generic save folder and then copy it to a different folder with another frugal install. I just have to edit my boot config by coping a working puppy boot stanza and point it at the new folder and giving it a new name. Then I can pick the pup I want to boot. I do it this way because I want it all separate. Your way will also work just make sure the save folders have very unique names. That harder to do when save folders only allow adding to the end of the name.

[TerryH]

So it seem to save2flash to whatever savefolder is selected for boot.
But that's not supposed to be the way it is supposed to work, or am I looking at it wrong?

save2flash is a utility to do a save of current RAM read/write layer to the current save folder(read only layer). The save2flash uses another script to do the updating, which is snapmergepuppy | snapmergepuppy.overlay It is an on-demand save of current changes to the save folder, it is not a backup utility.

Pupsave Backup, is a utility to create a backup. It first does a save of current work ulilizing snapmergepuppy, then creates a backup copy of the updated save folder. So, some care is needed to be observed when running the pupsave backup.

[JusGellin]

save2flash is a utility to do a save of current RAM read/write layer to the current save folder(read only layer). The save2flash uses another script to do the updating, which is snapmergepuppy | snapmergepuppy.overlay It is an on-demand save of current changes to the save folder, it is not a backup utility.

Pupsave Backup, is a utility to create a backup. It first does a save of current work ulilizing snapmergepuppy, then creates a backup copy of the updated save folder. So, some care is needed to be observed when running the pupsave backup.

I think I'm understanding this pretty well now. Here's my thinking:
1. Boot normally so any changes/updating of the session is manually saved using the desktop icon callded save
or when a reboot/shutdown gives a choice to save to current save folder called dpupbw64save

2. Boot normally again so above will occur for any manual save like above.
This time run the Pupsave Backup from the menu.
This first also does a save like the above and then makes a backup folder (for example makes one called dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.01-06.23) copied from the current save folder, dpupbw64save
This new folder doesn't get any new updates during this session like dpupbw64save can have.

3. Now when a new boot comes up there is a personal file selection to choose for this boot session:
0 none
1 sda1 /BookwormPup6410.0.9/dpupbw64save
2 sda1 /BookwormPup6410.0.9/dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.01-06.23

So, selecting 0 loads everything in memory.

Selecting 1 will use dpupbw64save for any manual saves

Selecting 2 will use dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.01-06.23 for any manual saves for that session

===========================================================

Pupsave Backup, is a utility to create a backup. It first does a save of current work ulilizing snapmergepuppy, then creates a backup copy of the updated save folder. So, some care is needed to be observed when running the pupsave backup.

What precautions have you seen that are needed for when a new backup is made?
Since nothing is saved until manually doing it, isn't it safe to make a new backup any time during that session?

Thanks for the great explanation you made on this.

[TerryH]

3. Now when a new boot comes up there is a personal file selection to choose for this boot session:
0 none
1 sda1 /BookwormPup6410.0.9/dpupbw64save
2 sda1 /BookwormPup6410.0.9/dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.01-06.23

At this point dpupbw64save and dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.01-06.23 are identical. To me, the name of 2 indicates it's purpose is as a backup and only used for that purpose. I would never keep it in the same folder as my used save folder, so it is not seen as a boot option.

So, selecting 0 loads everything in memory.

Selecting 0 is for a boot without any save folder, as a first boot of a new install. You will then have to go through the first run set up and be prompted to save at shutdown/reboot.

===========================================================

Pupsave Backup, is a utility to create a backup. It first does a save of current work ulilizing snapmergepuppy, then creates a backup copy of the updated save folder. So, some care is needed to be observed when running the pupsave backup.

What precautions have you seen that are needed for when a new backup is made?
Since nothing is saved until manually doing it, isn't it safe to make a new backup any time during that session? ***** No, the backup includes a save of the current state. *****

Thanks for the great explanation you made on this.

The precaution would be that due to the pupsave backup including a save of the current work prior to backup. So everything is saved at this point, if you run it mid session, it may save something you don't necessarily want to save, i.e you installed new software, that isn't tested that may cause issues.

[JusGellin]

@TerryH
Those are all good points for me to keep in mind going forward.

To me this backup feature is what has attracted me to continue using BookwormPup as my main everyday os.
Also I don't save2flash unless I made some change that I want for the next boot. Other than that I can boot with a clean configuration each time.

Thanks

[JusGellin]

I have another question concerning Pup Save Backup.
How can I direct where the backup will go?

I'm using SAVESPEC to set the save sessions as such:
SS_ID=Persistence
SS_DIR=Sessions

I would like to save the backups in the same Sessions Directory on the Persistence partition.

Right now the backup is going to /mnt/home/dpupbw6410.0.9nkb and is called dpupbw64save.BKP-2025.01.09-16-36
This is on the Persistence partition.

Thanks

[JusGellin]

I found that when I do a backup for BookwormPup64_10.0.9_nkb that I can manually change where it goes, in this case to the Sessions folder.
That's what I want.

But it doesn't remember that for the next time.
Is there any way to make it now select that as its default location to save the backup?

Thanks

[Clarity]

Hello @JusGellin

For any given distro, If you have multiple "...save..." in your Sessions folder, then at boot time a WoofCE will stop booting awaiting you to select which of the multiple sessions you want it to use.

This is a feature that WoofCE PUPs employ, OOTB. This should be happening for you.

For example, I sometimes take a given distro's session whose name, FOR EXAMPLE, is QuickPup64save-vRC17_pristine and I copy that to this new file QuickPup64save-vRC17_totally_UNCHANGED_pristine in the Sessions folder. When I boot, the boot stops listing these for selection before proceeding to desktop using the session I selected.

Hope this insight is helpful

[bigpup]

Keep in mind that not all Puppy versions see and use save backups during the boot process.

So what specific Puppy version you are talking about matters.

Some will only see a save backup, if the save backups name is changed back to the required save name, so it does not have .bak in the name.
And it is moved to the location the save is expected to be found.

This ability to also see and use backup saves, has recently been added to the boot process.
So the Puppy version has to have this change to the boot process.

Main reason for change, is so you could just select a backup save, not need to rename it, and use it.
But this does make it much easier, to get nagged at boot up, on which save to use.

[JusGellin]

Keep in mind that not all Puppy versions see and use save backups during the boot process.

So what specific Puppy version you are talking about matters.

I'm using BookwormPup64_10.0.9_nkb.

Main reason for change, is so you could just select a backup save, not need to rename it, and use it.
But this does make it much easier, to get nagged at boot up, on which save to use.

Most of the BookwormPup versions have always given me a selection of backups to select from.

Now that I'm using SAVESPEC to save a session to a partition called Persistence and folder called Sessions.
Saves go to that folder, but pupbackups have a different default that includes the Persistence partition.
But I can manually select the Persistence partition and the Sessions folder for the backup.
Then on boot up the menu includes all these backups and the sessions folder to select.

I just wanted to make the backup go to the right place without having to manually identify where it goes.

Thanks

[bigpup]

BookwormPup64 normal versions are using the newest boot process.

My post was more for others reading the topic and think some other Puppy version should do this.

Stuff specific to BookwormPup64_10.0.9_nkp really should be talked about in it's topic.
viewtopic.php?t=13321

I am sure ozsouth would like to know about any issues.

[bigpup]

I just wanted to make the backup go to the right place without having to manually identify where it goes.

If you are talking about using the program Pupsave backup.

It is actually the script file pupsave-backup.

It is hard coded to have the default backup save location to be /mnt/home/<name of the frugal directory>
So it is always selected to put the backup save there unless you select another location.

If you want to change the default location to something else.

You can open pupsave-backup file in Geany program and navigate to line 287.

Change the location information to where you want it to be by default.

Example:
I have a savetest directory on /mnt/home
I changed line 287 to this:

Code: Select all

export PBKP_LOCDEFAULT="/mnt/home/savetest"

This is how it looks in Pupsave backup when I run it:
.

Screenshot(2).jpg (59 KiB) Viewed 418 times

.
/mnt/home/ is always the partition the save is located on.

You want the default to be /mnt/home/Sessions

partition called Persistence is /mnt/home in the file system, because the save is on this partition.
The saves are in the folder called Sessions.

[JusGellin]

@bigpup
I found the script at /usr/pupsave-backup

I modified the line at 287 to read:
export PBKP_LOCDEFAULT="/mnt/home/Sessions"

That's exactly what I wanted, to save the backups at the same place as the Saves.

Thank you for your help.