QV is returning

[BarryK]

Readers of this forum might not have seen my recent blog posts.
I left working on QV about 4 months ago, and focused on EasyOS Scarthgap-series, the latest release is 6.3.1.

Now it is time for QV to get some TLC. To get a quick idea what QV is about, see the readme at github:

"woof-quantum-vis"
https://github.com/bkauler/woof-quantum-vis

Read more on my blog, in the "quirky" tag:

https://bkhome.org/news/tag_quirky.html

The big news today is have got encryption working. A weird solution, but it works.

[Stogie]

Great news Barry!

The announcement says no layered filesystem and frugal install, then says the image can be burned to a USB stick and run from there. I'm assuming this would be good short-term for evaluation, but wouldn't it wear out the USB drive, compared to recent EasyOS versions where the layered filesystem lets everything be done in RAM and then only flushed to the USB stick when asked (with desktop "Save" button) or at shutdown (if the user chooses?)

It sounds like beyond evaluation, it probably ought to be installed to an HD or SSD (internal being better as SATA/M2 is faster than USB, but probably workable if slower on an external USB HD/SSD.

Does that sound right? Am I understanding it correctly?

That's one of the things I love about recent EasyOS versions, by the way. Negligible USB stick wear, and if I screw up the system during a session, I can simply not click desktop "Save" and choose NOT to save the session at shutdown, and all the mayhem I caused disappears at next boot. If QV doesn't offer that I can live with it, though, to get direct access to lots of software packages without having to jump through hoops (containerized desktops, flatpak sandboxes, etc.) plus it sounds like the same "oops, I screwed up, restore to last save point!" functionality can be implemented in another way with the snapshot capabilities of the new btrfs filesystem.

Thanks!

[williwaw]

but wouldn't it wear out the USB drive, compared to recent EasyOS versions where the layered filesystem lets everything be done in RAM and then only flushed to the USB stick when asked (with desktop "Save" button) or at shutdown (if the user chooses?)

Hi Stogie
I have lost a few USB sticks thru the years, presumably from overuse, but they were cheapies that cost the same as latte at the expresso stand.
For the last 6 months I have been running QV from a PNY USB and I guess it is doing fine. Do you know any way to test for excessive wear or how to monitor the health of a USB?

it sounds like the same "oops, I screwed up, restore to last save point!" functionality can be implemented in another way with the snapshot capabilities of the new btrfs filesystem.

I create btrfs snapshots as I add apps, and most sessions I am not trying to do things that would corrupt recent work. When you create a snapshot at boot time, the OS continues booting into the new snapshot, so if you know you will be doing risky stuff, a plan ahead is required. Barry mentioned something about implementing snapshots and restoring from a previous snapshot during a session and that would be cool if it works out with btrfs, I know it was useful when running an install on a ZFS (similar) filesystem last year.

One thing nice about btrfs snapshots is they are way less smaller than easy snapshots, so one can afford to snapshot quite often without the storage space overhead.

https://bkhome.org/news/202404/qv-snaps ... ement.html
https://bkhome.org/news/202404/qv-snaps ... etion.html

[BarryK]

Stogie,
Yes, as QV is a conventional Linux install, "full frugal", in a folder in a partition, all writes are direct to the partition. It is recommended to use a SSD or HDD, or for usb a good quality flash drive.

Another issue is that app startup and operation might be noticeably slower when running from a cheap usb flash drive, compared with EasyOS.

I'm using a SanDisk Ultra usb flash drive for testing QV, which is a step up from the bargain-bin flash sticks, but even so I do notice a slightly longer app startup. Barely noticeable.

I can't say by how much a flash drive life will be shortened by running QV versus EasyOS. But if you are using a cheapish flash drive probably best to stay with Easy.

It is still likely that I will be looking again at the ways of adding more package repositories to Easy.

[Clarity]

Hi @Stogie, et. al.

There has always been a few SIGNIFICANT differences with the hardware being discussed in this thread. They are System Hardware, Life, and Performance.

Firstly, USB ports and its serial nature do not compare with PCI ports. This has been known thruout this century. The ports are design differently. The performance is vastly different in these 2 types of ports with PCI (for internal motherboad connections) being superior by far.

USB memory sticks and SDcards are built with low cost materials to make them attractive for storage use. System drives designed for direct motherboard connections have a very different design criteria and lifespan. As such, their life will, in almost all current cases, exceed the life of sticks and cards.

For full OSes, the OSes are designed to take advantage of the presence of storage, so for full, non-RAM OSes, it would be advisable to use a drive attached to motherboard for both reliability and stability.

That being said, does NOT mean that you cannot substitute or use USB or memory cards for running (or testing) an OS. If either of these are used, you should understand that you should not try to equate their performance against SSD drives connected internally to your PC.

So, notwithstanding the 'convenience factor'; I would heed the advice you see from others here when attempting to run a "full" (non-RAM) OS from USB sticks or SDcards.

Hope this helps

[Stogie]

Thanks Barry, that's very good info! I bought a pair of identical desktop PCs back in March that came with Windows 10 on their internal SSDs, which I completely ignored and never booted into even once. First thing i did was go in the BIOS/UEFI and set it to boot from USB, then inserted Easy USB sticks and never looked back.

So I might blow away the useless bloated spyware called Windows 10 from their SSDs and put QV on one or both of them and try it! No reason not to, because I can still boot into Easy from the USB sticks too.

It is still likely that I will be looking again at the ways of adding more package repositories to Easy.

That would be excellent, thanks! I love how Easy works so that'd be ideal.

[BarryK]

Another blog post, about handling the very awkward situation with snapshots when the kernel version changes:

https://bkhome.org/news/202410/qv-basic ... anges.html

Thinking about Puppy Linux, you might encounter this situation if choose to bootup with an old save-file. It might have lots of packages installed suited to an older kernel.

Perhaps it would be unusual for that to be an issue in Puppy Linux; however, it has to be fixed in QV.

The situation in QV is different, as snapshots are the complete system, including kernel modules and firmware, so if bootup a newer kernel and choose an old snapshot, then it will likely be broken. So I had to put in a fix.

The main choice in the fix will be to copy the correct kernel modules and firmware into the old snapshot. Another choice would be to change to the old kernel version and reboot with that.

[don570]

Ubuntu used to have a strict schedule of changing versions every 6 months.
If QV would change its kernel every 6 months on an announced schedule, then the problem with firmwarm and drivers
might be solved.

I read Barry's blog and the problems with the kernel seem like a nightmare.

Screenshot 2024-10-03 15.33.22.png (60.44 KiB) Viewed 1642 times

[BarryK]

Have now tackled updating. See blog report:

https://bkhome.org/news/202410/update-pet-for-qv.html

The updater pet has some rough edges, and not yet tested.

[BarryK]

Blog announcement:

https://bkhome.org/news/202410/qv-versi ... eased.html

Brief intro on github:

https://github.com/bkauler/woof-quantum-vis

qv-installer is a script that can install QV direct to internal drive, no need to bootup QV on a usb flash drive.
Though, qv-installer does have some requirements, such as 'btrfs-tools'.
Attached, with false ".gz"

[BarryK]

QV 241007 does not have gimp builtin; however, easy to install via PKGget.

I did, and it opens .webp, which the EasyOS gimp doesn't.
Still not in the right-click menu though.

[BarryK]

A heads-up about what to expect in the future...

We have been discussing various ways of adding more packages to EasyOS.
Guix for example.

However, there is an elephant in the room, and that is EasyOS's support for SFSs and containers, that is, the EasyContainers mechanism.

This will be a way to do what products like Guix do. We run a very cutdown QV as an SFS in a container, and will then be able to install and run any apps from the Void package repository.

It is a matter of setting it up to work seamlessly, out of the box. The QV container could have absolute minimum security, so apps will run pretty much with same rights as the Easy native apps.

I'm thinking about the best way to implement this. Expect blog posts about this soon.

[Clarity]

Hello @BarryK nice to see your progress.

Questions

1. Can this distro run "Live" directly from its IMG?

2. If so, can it have persistence?

3. If so, is there a boot parm that would allow directing the system to the persistence?

4. Does a persistence based operation introduce some unforeseen drawback(s)?

Curious

[nnriyer]

Welcome to QV Installer

QV Installer is a partly-manual and partly-automatic script to install QV into
the partitions of an internal drive. Or, an external drive if you wish.

The first option to get out of the way, is if you want to install QV to the
entire drive, internal or external, this script is not appropriate. Instead use
EasyDD, that you will find in the Setup category of the menu. Or, open a
terminal wherever you have downloaded the QV drive-image file and run it.
For example: "# easydd qv-240421-amd64.img"

Continuing in this script, you have a drive with partitions, and you want to
install QV into one or more of those partitions...

ERROR you must run this script as the root user.

Press ENTER to abort script:

How to install with root user ?

[BarryK]

Welcome to QV Installer

QV Installer is a partly-manual and partly-automatic script to install QV into
the partitions of an internal drive. Or, an external drive if you wish.

The first option to get out of the way, is if you want to install QV to the
entire drive, internal or external, this script is not appropriate. Instead use
EasyDD, that you will find in the Setup category of the menu. Or, open a
terminal wherever you have downloaded the QV drive-image file and run it.
For example: "# easydd qv-240421-amd64.img"

Continuing in this script, you have a drive with partitions, and you want to
install QV into one or more of those partitions...

ERROR you must run this script as the root user.

Press ENTER to abort script:

How to install with root user ?

What OS are you running?

With EasyOS and most pups you will already be the root user.

Other Linuxes, you have to change to root. Um, been awhile since I have done that, should be able to prepend "sudo" in the terminal, or run "su" to change to root.

[BarryK]

Received an email from Alfons, reporting easy-version-control script doesn't work. It is also a menu entry "Filesystem -> Easy Versin Control".
That is for EasyOS only. I have removed it.

Alfons wanted to take a snapshot.
IN QV that has to be done in the menu in the initrd.

[BarryK]

Hello @BarryK nice to see your progress.

Questions

1. Can this distro run "Live" directly from its IMG?

2. If so, can it have persistence?

3. If so, is there a boot parm that would allow directing the system to the persistence?

4. Does a persistence based operation introduce some unforeseen drawback(s)?

Curious

The whole idea of a drive-img is that it runs in the drive, fully-installed, already "persistent'.

[nnriyer]

Sir

I am using your scarth easyos latest version. With Sudo prefix, I am able to install the QV on internal partition by providing password on pop up window. You may be aware that I have beening using Puppy Linux since inception. This is first time, I am using sudo on Puppy/EasyOs.

Please note that Limine and Youtube DL is not working. No ungoogled chromium ? This is my initial observation.

[butiliero]

A heads-up about what to expect in the future...

We have been discussing various ways of adding more packages to EasyOS.
Guix for example.

However, there is an elephant in the room, and that is EasyOS's support for SFSs and containers, that is, the EasyContainers mechanism.

This will be a way to do what products like Guix do. We run a very cutdown QV as an SFS in a container, and will then be able to install and run any apps from the Void package repository.

It is a matter of setting it up to work seamlessly, out of the box. The QV container could have absolute minimum security, so apps will run pretty much with same rights as the Easy native apps.

I'm thinking about the best way to implement this. Expect blog posts about this soon.

Maybe I am a bit naive here, but wouldn't it be simpler to have a minimal EasyOS with all cointainer/SFSs mechanisms and load in a container any complete desktopo distribution, e.g. the full-feature EasyOS, QV, or any puppy? The mechanism is already implemented in EasyOS but in this case it would be used also to boot the main desktop and one could chose which system to load in a graphical environment. Also updates to EasyOS or QV could happen without rebooting, only the main OS update would need a reboot.

I am probably missing some very basic stuff here, including the fact that, well, we already have something very similar in EasyOS...

[williwaw]

Maybe I am a bit naive here, but wouldn't it be simpler to have a minimal EasyOS with all cointainer/SFSs mechanisms and load in a container any complete desktopo distribution, e.g. the full-feature EasyOS, QV, or any puppy? The mechanism is already implemented in EasyOS but in this case it would be used also to boot the main desktop and one could chose which system to load in a graphical environment. Also updates to EasyOS or QV could happen without rebooting, only the main OS update would need a reboot.

interesting arrangement
perhaps someone can utilize barrys build scripts.......

the new QV installed to 2 machines. some testing will follow. I need to install a new ssd disk to a unused laptop to test better. (I am currently experienceing problems with my daily driver laptop, perhaps with USB storage or memory)

[BarryK]

Sir

I am using your scarth easyos latest version. With Sudo prefix, I am able to install the QV on internal partition by providing password on pop up window. You may be aware that I have beening using Puppy Linux since inception. This is first time, I am using sudo on Puppy/EasyOs.

Please note that Limine and Youtube DL is not working. No ungoogled chromium ? This is my initial observation.

In that case, you would already be running as root user. You do NOT need to run su or sudo.

The script /usr/local/easy_version/qv-installer does this test:

Code: Select all

BAD=0
if [ "$(whoami)" != "root" ];then
 echo "$(gettext 'ERROR you must run this script as the root user.')"
 BAD=1
fi

In a terminal, I am running Easy 6.3.1, I type this:

Code: Select all

# whoami
root
# 

...which is correct.

[don570]

webp examples to test mtpaint and gimp

Right click and save link
https://developers.google.com/speed/web ... webp_links
_______________________________________

[nnriyer]

Now whoami shows root. However, earlier instance while trying to install in SSD, I am forced to provide password. No idea. First time I have used sudo command !!. Anyway installed QV in SSD. (vmlinux and initrd in ext4 and working partition in btrfs).Shall I required to move to grub2 for full benefits from QV ?.If so, Sir please provide Grub2 installation details. Now lamine is installed on USB (only bootloader) otherwise, I have to make use of F10 eveytime while required to boot from internal hdd. HP laptop is hardcoded so diverting the boot loader is not possible forme

[williwaw]

Blog announcement:

https://bkhome.org/news/202410/qv-versi ... eased.html

a common disk arrangement for many users is to have on a partition, a top level folder for data and portables etc. that can be utilized by multiple frugal installs.
If one wishs to create this as a btrfs volume so that it can be sbapshotted by various qv frugals, do you have suggestions, precautions or advice?

also.
what might be the pros and cons of making /files a (snapshottable) subvolume

thanks

[BarryK]

Blog announcement:

https://bkhome.org/news/202410/qv-versi ... eased.html

a common disk arrangement for many users is to have on a partition, a top level folder for data and portables etc. that can be utilized by multiple frugal installs.
If one wishs to create this as a btrfs volume so that it can be sbapshotted by various qv frugals, do you have suggestions, precautions or advice?

also.
what might be the pros and cons of making /files a (snapshottable) subvolume

thanks

Just thinking off the top of my head, I don't think either of those should be snapshottable.

/files would be collections of stuff, like your photos, and perhaps you would want that to just accumulate, not have snapshots.
Perhaps same for any kind of global folder.

My thinking has been that you would only have snapshots of different app installations, for example a snapshot for android programming, another setup for video editing.
They could save their work in /files or even a more global folder.

Though, it might not be as clear-cut as that.

[williwaw]

Thanks for that Barry. I should find an rsync utility for backups of /files or my similar top level folder in that partition.
Looking at Pmirror it seems to be a front end for mirdir. Are there advantages of mirdir over rsync?
Have you considered grysnc http://www.opbyte.it/grsync/

the password encryption function seems to work, except the intrid menu choices are gone. when the password is entered, the boot goes directly to desktop. I say "seems to work" because when I put files in /files/personal they are not visible when I look in that directory when booted into a different instance. (I expected to see files with cryptic names)

evınce seems to be a scrıpt ın /usr/bin that calls epfview? it seems to be executable but not seen?

Code: Select all

# whereıs evınce
bash: whereıs: command not found
# type evınce
bash: type: evınce: not found
# type eventmanager
eventmanager is /usr/bin/eventmanager
# type epdfview
bash: type: epdfview: not found

neither viewers launch but epdfview can be installed from the repo and works nice. evince is in the repo also.

[BarryK]

the password encryption function seems to work, except the intrid menu choices are gone. when the password is entered, the boot goes directly to desktop. I say "seems to work" because when I put files in /files/personal they are not visible when I look in that directory when booted into a different instance. (I expected to see files with cryptic names)

The initrd menu choices are still there.
Instead of entering the password, just press ENTER

Yes, the weird effect of putting /files inside a ext4 sparse file is that there doesn't seem to be anything there. You would expect to see them in /mnt/wkg/.sparse-mnt, but because the mounting was done in the initrd then moved with the switch_root, get this weird effect. Which is good, seems like nothing there.

But if you mount .sparse-ext4 separately, you will see the encrypted names.

Code: Select all

# mkdir mntpt
# busybox mount -t ext4 -o loop .sparse-ext4 mntpt

In theory it would be possible to provide the fscrypt code to decrypt those folders.

[williwaw]

testing some with the different initrd menu items and alls working better than earlier version which I admit I may have corrupted by creating volumes manually.

menu item 6 returns "cant unmount partition" could the file check be a work in progress?

another observation is some reboots bring up the keyboard selection and password setting function. I was doing menu>shutdown>reboot computer and have since switched to doing menu>shutdown>poweroff.
will report further if problem persists.

because the mounting was done in the initrd then moved with the switch_root, get this weird effect. Which is good, seems like nothing there.

But if you mount .sparse-ext4 separately, you will see the encrypted names.

yes that works, kinda nice being hidden.
dont just click on the icon in rox tho, geany sees it as a file it can open but it cant and runs away in the background

[james2]

I have QV on a .3 usb. Install and startup smooth . But I have no Internet. Says Network manager is off. I can't start it. Any suggestions appreciated.

[williwaw]

I have QV on a .3 usb. Install and startup smooth . But I have no Internet. Says . I can't start it. Any suggestions appreciated.

what says "Network manager is off" how have you tried to start it?

what happens if you right click on the icon in the tray.?

what happens if you type NetworkManager in the terminal?

what happens if you run nmtui in the terminal?

sorry to ask so many questions but a little more detail would help diagnose. ;)