Proposal for a Further Updated and New F96-CE_5

[rockedge]

Considering the efforts and usefulness of putting together a new F96-CE_5 with a few modifications and a 6.8.4 @ozsouth kernel. Would think of enlisting @radky to throw in some suggestions if at all possible during the assembly phase. F96-CE_4 was released on April 2, 2023 and now has one year of experiences

Focal Fossa is aging, but having a solid performing distro that still is non-usermerge and can run well on machines from the late 2000's to current hardware is important in keeping a broad range of used (inexpensive, thrown away as in free) computers fully functional and totally useful.

We can start listing the improvements to F96-CE_4 that are reasonable, here in this topic. Or discuss if it's even worth it.

[mow9902]

As a bog standard user I would say Absolutely worth another upgrade! I know, easy for me to say, since I don't have to do the work - but frankly, F96-CE4 is far and away the best version ever on my ancient DELL laptop.

[ozsouth]

@rockedge - I used gcc 11.2 & glibc 2.33 for 6.8.4 aoi. Ususally I'd use 10.2.0 & 2.30, closer to F96-CE_4's 9 & 2.31. Folk with older pups definitely have had compatibility issues with newer versions.
Have recompiled & reposted with a slightly different name (aoe - used 10.2.0 & 2.30, also includes drm_xe as a module).

[mikeslr]

@rockedge

The following

https://mega.nz/file/hvpi0AYL#NKp2BaFXK ... OpcMOlZd-o

has pets I downloaded after the initial publication of F-96 which might be useful. Most were compiled for Fossapup64 [mostly by Jasper some by sonny*] but should function under F-96. Download the tar.gz and extract it. As this screenshot shows it's somewhat organized.

Contents.png (54.28 KiB) Viewed 2927 times

I've included my notes relating to some specific packages. Don't hesitate to ask for further info. [But my flaky memory may not provide it. ]

You'll know better than I if any are of use.

Jasper's latest DevX.sfs for Fossapup64,
https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 64#p115964, is NOT included.

It's probably still worth your while to work backwards thru the Fossapup User Contributed Packages Section from here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... &start=600. You'll have a better idea than I as to some utilities or libs found there. Uncertain
of how they actually impact on a system I did not download them.

I do have many other packages that were built for Fossapup64 that I have not included. Those were of specific applications which not everyone might want, such as encryptpad, artha and smtube. Don't hesitate to ask.

Note: If I remember to I may delete this file after it's been up for a month or so.
-=-=-=-=--
* Those by ozsouth compiled for his remasters of Fossapup64 are (I think) only in the specified folder.

[Jasper]

@rockedge

I do not use FP95-CE4, but I would recommend an update to OpenSSL as a priority.

Are you using the 1.1.1 branch (EOL) or the newer 3.0.0 build ?

My applications use the old 1.1.1 build.

The ALSA updates would not be required as you use PulseAudio for sound.

@mikeslr

Thank you for keeping an archive of these applications

[rockedge]

@mikeslr I have downloaded the archive you've provided and assembled a collection now. There will be quite a few of the options tested out and hopefully I can get most if not all of them to work together. It's a solid starting point for sure.

I have been using the new Devx SFS in F96-CE_4 and just installed Zoneminder via script which depends on the Devx SFS to be loaded. Compiled several packages successfully using it, like the xbps package manager that can be used to build Void Linux/KLV packages while never leaving F96-CE_4. I renamed devx_fossapup64_9.5.sfs to devx_F96-CE.sfs for using it with F96-CE_4

[Clarity]

Fossa has been around for awhile. @666philb did a GREAT job in providing that during a time when the community was seeking a distro reflecting a PUP (WoofCE earlier days).

F96 moved the needle forward with a modern packaging of that with updated tools for LAN (aka @rerwin ), bluetooth, and etc.

Today, even more modern things are helpful.

I think the following may be helpful-useful inclusions in a new version of F96CE (fassa modernizations)

• Community contributions have come from several noted members...aka @ETP and @Jasper.

• some at-a-glance utilities such as TLDR, BTOP, and continuing Conky is a useful mix in identifying system behavior

• @ETP's mixed of utilities that add voice notifications to the desktop is very useful and bring additional accessibility that is not included in most distros, yet adds a touch of advancement unique in this distro community.

• audio improvements that are not just for present use, but helpful in our future means Pipewire-Wireplumber is a consistent vehicle we should ride in with F96 going forward.

And most important to the forum future is to focus attention on distros we feel the community (new users and experienced users) will come here and adopt. Everyone wants modern stable OSes.

Hope this is helpful

[rockedge]

One of the advantages I am using is @wiak's wd_multi script to set up many frugal installs of F96-CE_4 that are each around 2000 bytes in size before a save folder is created. Since instance1 through to instance9 are symlinks to instance0 which is the actual frugal install directory for a F96-CE_4.

Now quick swap of the kernel in instance0 and instance1 through instance9 will all instantly also have that swapped in kernel. Meaning that any changes to the "real" frugal directory will be the same automatically in all of the instances linked to it.

To get started on some ideas for the F96-CE upgrade I have downloaded the collection (local repo) of recently compiled version of packages by members of the community. So having many fresh frugal installations that are very easy to replace, I started to install the PET's from the local repo one after another. Checking the versions as I went.

So far all those I have installed seem to be functioning together well in F96-CE_4

This is interesting enough I went ahead and loaded the new Devx for fossapup64, and ran the install Zoneminder scripts to do two big tests at the same time.

I found that so far the PERL package in the devx is functioning as expected but the PET version I installed broke PERL in this system.

[Jasper]

@rockedge

Does the updated Perl package need to be incorporated into the DevX instead of being installed as a Pet?

My thinking is that due to the layering of files, this may cause a problem?

[rockedge]

Does the updated Perl package need to be incorporated into the DevX instead of being installed as a Pet?

I think it does need to go into the DevX. Question now is how much of the PERL package is in the DevX?

To stay in between the lines we should consider placing the PERL in the same fashion as F96-CE_4 has now which seems now to be in the DevX

[Jasper]

I guess the incorporated applications into the DevX would benefit from being 'stripped' down and documentation compressed to reduce its size.

I think @user1234 said she compressed these.

[Clarity]

Questions:
Fossa is v 20.0x with 'supported' subsystems based on that. It has been stabilized for few years. Pipeware and its tools were not a part of that Fossa stabilization release in FossaPUP64; as such my request seemingly will introduce the possibility of incompatibility affecting stability. This along with newer packages and kernels drag along similar possibility.

Is it wise to continue upgrading this stable distro as no performance will be derived? Or, is there a large amount of fixes that have occurred since F96CE-4 where version '5' yields a greater stability in operations?

Is there a benefit or should efforts be on later-latest distros?

[Clarity]

I retract the above post I made. I think @Jasper's forum message here 'actually' answers why this product "should" be upgraded.

[bigpup]

If you want to go a little retro.

Have Seamonkey as the browser along with all the other programs that it provides,
(Containing an Internet browser, email & newsgroup client with an included web feed reader, HTML editor, IRC chat and web development tools).

It is 158MB size installed. (smaller than the Firefox ESR that is in F96-CE)
But look at all the other programs it could replace and not have those other programs in F96-CE_5.

I have been using the latest version (2.53.18.2)

Everything I have tried to do, using it, seems to be working.

Reading the info provide here:
https://www.seamonkey-project.org/
It seems to be actively getting updated and improved.
Using the same Mozilla Firefox source code that Firefox browser uses.

It seems to be a much better browser than it was, when Puppy versions needed to find a better browser to use.
This latest version seems to have gotten the needed updates and improvements to make it a modern day browser.

[Jasper]

It would be good if you could create menu entries for the additional applications contained within Seamonkey instead of opening Windows within the application.

[fredx181]

I have been using the latest version (2.53.18.2)

Everything I have tried to do, using it, seems to be working.

Reading the info provide here:
https://www.seamonkey-project.org/
It seems to be actively getting updated and improved.
Using the same Mozilla Firefox source code that Firefox browser uses.

Well, I use mostly firefox, basically I always liked the Seamonkey project, now, being curious, with Seamonkey it failed for me running a website working with DRM protection/encryption , I don't think it can work with SM, can it work for you perhaps ?

Seamonkey is Ok anyway when you don't have interest in that stuff.

[bigpup]

Sorry to say, no DRM in Seamonkey is going to kill that idea of using Seamonkey.

Been looking, but can not find a way to add DRM support to it.

Hopping to maybe find an add-on that would provide DRM support.

I guess it is going to have to stick with Firefox browser.

[geo_c]

Sorry to say, no DRM in Seamonkey is going to kill that idea of using Seamonkey.

Been looking, but can not find a way to add DRM support to it.

Hopping to maybe find an add-on that would provide DRM support.

I guess it is going to have to stick with Firefox browser.

I always run LibreWolf with DRM content disabled and never seem to have trouble, but of course I'm not using spotify or any of that stuff. I'd personally like to be able to use Seamonkey, as I used the portable version awhile back and like a lot of things about it. I might play around with it again and see how I like it for email. It certainly has a lot going for it.

[bigpup]

How to get and install the latest version of Seamonkey:
viewtopic.php?t=11250

[rockedge]

Tried an experiment with installing the usrmerge package with Synaptic and then installing some packages for example Thunar.

Resulting in the packages being installed but error thrown when the usrmerge script began to do the conversion, No problem to uninstall (remove) the usrmerge package and to test again so installed Midnight Commander with Synaptic, which showed up in the menu automatically and starts!

Screenshot(1).jpg (74.97 KiB) Viewed 2246 times

Installing packages is working well and even though the first attempts with Ubuntu's usrmerge convertor did not quite do it's job and I removed it, it's certainly going to need further experimentation.

meanwhile fun to drive this F96-CE_5-alpha3 and possible with some tweaks I can package an ISO for others to try out.

[geo_c]

How to get and install the latest version of Seamonkey:
viewtopic.php?t=11250

I'm currently posting from @mikewalsh's portable Seamonkey which was updated to the latest version from within Seamonkey. It's running well on KLV-airedale-sr8.

As of the last few years I have NOT found it necessary to actually install a browser into a puppy or KL distro with all these completely functioning portables available. That definitely applies to F96_CE4.

So as to what browsers should be built in to a new F96, it's hard for me to justify building in very much. I think something like Seamonkey would allow for downloading anything a person needs.

I've suggested in the past using the portable concept in a distro release, but haven't quite figured out the details. My thinking is a portable could be included in an iso located in the install directory and a desktop file included in the menu to launch it. I think all that is needed to do that is a "/mnt/home" location, which all pups seem to have built in, yet that seems inadequate based on the fact that people give their install directories unique names, perhap a script prompting for the location of the portable would be necessary.

[wizard]

@geo_c

it's hard for me to justify building in very much

OK for experienced users, but I believe the thinking is, that new and/or inexperienced users will expect and need a mainstream browser pre-installed.

I've suggested in the past using the portable concept in a distro release, but haven't quite figured out the details

I've tried this in the past and it was always awkward and had pitfalls. Also inflated the size of the ISO. Perhaps someone with better skills can figure it out.

Thanks
wizard

[bigpup]

I think all that is needed to do that is a "/mnt/home" location, which all pups seem to have built in

/mnt/home is not in the operating file system, until a save is made and booted using the save.
/mnt/home is always the partition the save is located on.

If the save is not on the same partition the Puppy is installed on and running from.

/mnt/home will be the specific partition the save is on.

[rockedge]

OK for experienced users, but I believe the thinking is, that new and/or inexperienced users will expect and need a mainstream browser pre-installed.

I've made many variations of distro types, configurations and experience shows that a preinstalled browser is practically expected.

Mostly experienced users are likely to choose and use a KLV-Airedale or KLV-Spectr so probably we could get away with not having a pre-installed browser. Also the ISO size is not as critical and could possibly accommodate having a portable browser included. But on a F96-CE it is better to include one because there is an excellent chance a new user or beginner just starting out on Linux will be getting F96-CE and would appreciate having a capable browser in the main menu at first system start.

The portables are excellent but not for the initial F96-CE ISO package.

This first phase F96-CE_5 has an adrv with palemoon and other packages together just as the woof-CE Fossapup64 recipe builds the distro.
In F96-CE_4 the adrv had the browser removed and the rest of the programs and utility scripts were reassigned to a ydrv. So F96-CE_4 has no adrv in the production ISO. This leaves room for a browser alone in an adrv which could be renamed or removed if not needed.

This approach was previously discussed in the first rounds of developing F96-CE. It was decided to go with FIrefox-esr-portable in the /opt directory in the rootfs.

This woof-CE generated Fossapup64 comes with an adrv, bdrv, fdrv,zdrv along with the rootfs SFS.

[bigpup]

There was one version of Puppy released with no browser in it.

It had several browsers as pet packages, you could download and install from a repository.
Used a menu entry to click on, that provided a list you could select from.
What you selected would be downloaded and installed.

About 98% of people hated this!

Everyone wanted a good working browser, already there to use.

[rockedge]

About 98% of people hated this!

Everyone wanted a good working browser, already there to use.

Exactly. Heard the calls while making both KLV's and F96-CE. I prefer it.

I feel like we'll go with the same set up and have the Firefox-esr-portable in /opt

[Clarity]

... I've made many variations of distro types, configurations and experience shows that a preinstalled browser is practically expected. ...

+1

I also "think" @ETP's Chrome Installer is a plus to any forum distro: It is home-grown, home supported, takes accessibility into account, and carry ZERO weight as it does NOT place the browser into the system until/unless a user clicks it from the distro's Start Menu>Internet>"Get Latest Chrome Browser'. No impact, no user complaints ... merely an available options ONLY.

This has been available in the FossaPUP community packages for years. And, as I have tested, it "works" in all forum distros without the user doing nothing more than a mere click if they desire. No concern of space or locations or ???. Simply a click IFF wanted.

Thus its inclusion is NOT an endorsement or a mandate to use it. It would merely exist, as so many other packages in a distro do, for user selection.

[mikewalsh]

There was one version of Puppy released with no browser in it.

It had several browsers as pet packages, you could download and install from a repository.
Used a menu entry to click on, that provided a list you could select from.
What you selected would be downloaded and installed.

About 98% of people hated this!

Everyone wanted a good working browser, already there to use.

Ayup. That was jrb's 'light' spin on Precise Puppy.

Whilst I agree with @geo_c 's idea, I too feel it would be awkward to implement.....and I have to concur with @rockedge here; for noobs, a built-in browser is 100% expected. No sense in alienating new users right at the very beginning of their Puppy journey...

I would also recommend a current build of Firefox-ESR. Its long-term stability is excellent, and it can connect to / interact with most any website out there. Since many folks make regular use of on-line sites encoded with DRM, FF works for this. SeaMonkey never will. Whilst it's a very good, all-in-one internet suite - the built-in email and HTML editor are an ace idea - still it's NOT fully compatible on the modern web.

It was a very good choice for early Pups, before NetFlix, Spotify and DRM encoding became a thing. But the web is constantly evolving, and browsers have to evolve WITH it in order to remain relevant.

I searched high and low for a way to add DRM functionality to SeaMonkey. There is none.....because it was never a part of the original "mission parameters", and the dev team hasn't changed their thinking on this one. And it's exactly the same with Pale Moon; Moonchild has clearly stated, on multiple occasions, that Pale Moon will never, EVER contain DRM decoding. Why? Because he doesn't want to. It's that simple; the lead - and in this case, only - dev's personal choice.

Mike.

[rockedge]

Now have a slightly further polished alpha3 version using @ozsouth's 6.6.28 low latency kernel. If some tests go okay I will make an ISO of it for experimenting available.

[vtpup]

I'm using F96-CE v4 as a daily driver after having tried a lot of other pup/dog distros for this new laptop. It did need a later bigger kernel, and additional firmware. But it does pretty much everything I normally need now. I look forward to v.5 in hopes of solving some small problems I still have.

Browsers: For a browser, I agree that a new user expects a working browser when trying out a distro -- most people are web oriented, and the first thing they will try is seeing how their connections work. If they have to install a browser you'll lose a lot of them right off the bat.

I personally use Seamonkey 90% of the time, but for DRM I use Firefox. It's no biggie to me which is included with a Puppy distro, as I typically install latest Seamonkey as a plain download anyway. It is in fact a portable application from the get-go, right from the Mozilla site, except for the placement of .mozilla in root (which I move to /mnt/home).

After downloading the latest, I usually decompress Seamonkey in /opt, then type opt/seamonkey/seamonkey in Default Applications Chooser's browser entry. Takes me only a couple of minutes to download and set up the current version of Seamonkey in any Puppy.

Though I greatly prefer Seamonkey for my own use, I would suggest including Firefox instead in a distribution because many will expect DRM capability. And they may assume it is a limitation of Puppy, rather than of the specific browser.

I dislike Firefox otherwise because of its poor settings and preferences style which obfuscates user monitoring and Google linked preferences and limits user control. Seamonkey has a very clear and easily navigated set of granular user preferences and privacy and security controls, which make it easy and logical to set up.

The NoScript add-on is, to me essential for both, though less useful and more of a pain in the neck in Firefox. I also think Firefox should be shipped with Startpage as the default search engine, or at least DuckDuckGo, with Startpage available as an alternate search engine. Seamonkey ships this way.

Viewers:

Video: I always use VLC, don't like mpv for the lack of features (including volume control, if I remember correctly. I always have to install VLC when moving to a new distro. No substitutes work as well or usefully for me.

Photo: Viewnior was always the most convenient for me on most prior Puppies, mainly because you could hit File>Open With>Default Image Editor, which is a critically important capability for a viewer.

My most frequent use for a photo viewer is to pick out photos to be used in something, and generally that something (publication, email, or forum) requires cropping and/or changing the resolution of the photo. MTPaint does this fastest and easiest for me. So that is my default photo editor. And I want that immediately available from the image viewer. Viewnior does allow this. Gpicview doesn't. Also I find the tiny icons at the bottom of the pic screen difficult to use compared to the more standard top of window bigger icons and text dropdown choices.

The latest F96-CE v4 has Gpicview as the photo default viewer, but because it doesn't let you switch the current viewed photo to an editor, it's largely useless for me.

I have in the past seen version of Viewnior on some puppy, or from a .pet that had been set up to use Gimp as the photo editor. Hated that, way too much program - and too slow opening and saving to do a simple crop or resolution change. Gimp is fine for sophisticated manipulations, but clumsy compared to MTPaint for simple operations.

If the person who set that up had not specified Gimp, but instead had spec'd Default Image Editor, things would have been a hundred times better, in my opinion. Then you could choose.

Okay, well, enough for now, probably too much, actually...