Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Hello Puppy Forums,

Just installed Bookworm Pup64 frugal install to a USB flash drive.

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

apt update && apt upgrade 

I ran the commands and there didn't seem to be any updates.

Here's the output.

# apt update && apt upgrade
Hit:1 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm InRelease
Hit:2 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm-updates InRelease
Hit:3 http://deb.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security InRelease
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
4 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them.
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages have been kept back:
  gir1.2-rsvg-2.0 librsvg2-2 librsvg2-bin librsvg2-common
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.
# 

Thanks.

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

No.
Puppy is different you update it by downloading the newest iso
mount the iso by clicking on it and copy the files to another folder
Then boot into another puppy or linux and copy the files over your current Bookworm install
You need theses files
Anything with ending with a .sfs, initrd.gz , isolinux.bin, ucode.cpio , and vmlinz
Reboot Bookworm and your done.

The location of your current files are /mnt/home (There should be a drive icon on your desktop)

tammi806 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:22 pm

Just installed Bookworm Pup64 frugal install to a USB flash drive.

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

Code: Select all

apt update && apt upgrade 

I ran the commands and there didn't seem to be any updates.

@tammi806

Concerning apt update and apt upgrade as implemented in BW64, please see the following Help resource:

Puppy Menu - > Help -> HOWTO use the APT Package Manager

Also, as previously explained by @dimkr:

The apt upgrade option will only update user-installed packages. Updates for preinstalled packages are (intentionally) disabled using apt-mark hold to avoid updates that may pollute your save file/folder and/or slow down the system, and to prevent updates that may overwrite Woof-CE build-time customizations of Debian packages.

You can use apt-mark unhold to allow updates to a package, but this is risky. Updating your entire Puppy to a new Woof-CE build is a much safer way to update all core system packages.

d-pupp is right; but you rarely have to 'up-grade' your system as a whole. You can wait until radky publishes a new version. I up-graded exactly as d-pupp suggested when radky published the latest version. But with this 'wrinkle'. A Puppy --even bookworm-- only needs it own folder. So created a folder on the same partition as the earlier version, just giving that folder a different name, e.g. 'book1' rather than just 'book'. Then did what d-pupp suggested --placing the contents of the new version in 'book1'. Then edited my grub2's grub.cfg to add a new stanza. That's easy because it is identical with the existing 'book' stanza; just with a different title and identifying the system files as being in book1 rather than book.
The entire process above can be done running the earlier Bookworm. Other than download time, it takes less than 5 minutes. Once I boot into 'book1', I can use it to copy the SaveFolder from 'book'. But before doing that I read radky's 'Change log' to see if there's any reason NOT to use the 'old Save' such as (a) a significant change which may conflict with the contents of the 'old Save' or (b) radky has now builtin an application (perhaps even newer or a better alternative) than I had installed in 'book'. If 'b', I'll know to 'uninstall' the now unnecessary application from the Save.
The advantages of 'Puppy's Way' over other Linuxes is that you always have a functioning operating system; and if for any reason the 'new' isn't as good as the 'old' you still have the 'old', can communicate the issue and wait for improvements. Once satisfied, removing the old is as simple as deleting its folder and editing grub.cfg.

None of the above prevents you from updating apt and synaptic to take advantage of whatever updates may now be available to debian-Bookworm. Radky has placed locks* on some components apt/synaptic would otherwise install that would interfere with how your Puppy functions.

And none of the above prevents you from changing kernels; a procedure which under other Linuxes requires an entire rebuild: time consuming and occasionally destructive. Puppys are modular. Once there is a newer kernel appropriate for Bookworm --check here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=65, noting that Bookworm follows the 'user-merge' Rule, swapping kernels just involves replacing these components: vmlinux, zdrv_dpup_10.0.?.sfs and perhaps adding a fdrv_dpup_10.0.?.sfs. Again, a 5 minute procedure excluding download time. [But it's safest to be able to boot into a different Puppy just in case the new Kernel lacks necessary drivers/firmware].

* I think that was reflected by your terminal's read-out:
"The following packages have been kept back:
gir1.2-rsvg-2.0 librsvg2-2 librsvg2-bin librsvg2-common"

But as is often the case regarding 'technicalities' I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

Wow this is way over my head and will look this over tomorrow when I'm not tired.

Thanks for the help and how to information.

This is turning out to be more than I figured it would be so a new learning curve.

When I first started using Puppy Linux Tahrpup updated using Quickpet and PPM and that was it.

It is late and I tired so I'm going to bed.

Thanks again everyone I'll have a better look tomorrow after I get some sleep.

radky wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:44 pm

Updates for preinstalled packages are (intentionally) disabled using apt-mark hold to avoid updates that may pollute your save file/folder and/or slow down the system, and to prevent updates that may overwrite Woof-CE build-time customizations of Debian packages.

This is correct.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:11 pm

* I think that was reflected by your terminal's read-out:
"The following packages have been kept back:
gir1.2-rsvg-2.0 librsvg2-2 librsvg2-bin librsvg2-common"

That's what apt says when a package can be updated but updates for it are disabled using apt-mark hold. You can use apt-mark unhold librsvg2-2, etc' to force updates of preinstalled packages, but you're taking a risk because some packages are customized by woof-CE during the Puppy build process (most notably: core packages like glibc), and losing that customization by applying the latest Debian package as-is can break your system, increase RAM consumption or slow down everything, while also wasting save file space.

However, using apt upgrade to upgrade the packages that are not "held" (= user-installed packages) is fine and should be safe.

d-pupp wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

No.
Puppy is different you update it by downloading the newest iso
mount the iso by clicking on it and copy the files to another folder
Then boot into another puppy or linux and copy the files over your current Bookworm install
You need theses files
Anything with ending with a .sfs, initrd.gz , isolinux.bin, ucode.cpio , and vmlinz
Reboot Bookworm and your done.

The location of your current files are /mnt/home (There should be a drive icon on your desktop)

I'm going to give this a good look at and do my best to learn to do this.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 7:24 am

radky wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:44 pm

Updates for preinstalled packages are (intentionally) disabled using apt-mark hold to avoid updates that may pollute your save file/folder and/or slow down the system, and to prevent updates that may overwrite Woof-CE build-time customizations of Debian packages.

This is correct.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:11 pm

* I think that was reflected by your terminal's read-out:
"The following packages have been kept back:
gir1.2-rsvg-2.0 librsvg2-2 librsvg2-bin librsvg2-common"

That's what apt says when a package can be updated but updates for it are disabled using apt-mark hold. You can use apt-mark unhold librsvg2-2, etc' to force updates of preinstalled packages, but you're taking a risk because some packages are customized by woof-CE during the Puppy build process (most notably: core packages like glibc), and losing that customization by applying the latest Debian package as-is can break your system, increase RAM consumption or slow down everything, while also wasting save file space.

However, using apt upgrade to upgrade the packages that are not "held" (= user-installed packages) is fine and should be safe.

Seems I remember a Debian Dog Puppy Linux where I could use

sudo apt 

in the terminal but that was some years back so not sure which one it was and it seems I could only run it as a live cd but did have a save file can't be sure anymore though.

I've always read that you should not force any updates as they can break a Linux distro and the updates will come when they are ready to be installed.

I'm good at breaking my Linux distros trying to do stuff to them no matter how well I follow the how to instructions.

I'm not meaning to sound negative that's just the way these kind of things seem to go when I do these kind of things.

I keep trying but just can't seem to get it right and make things work at times and it's damn irritating and frustrating.

I keep trying though.

Thanks for the help and patience.

tammi806 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 6:19 am

Wow this is way over my head and will look this over tomorrow when I'm not tired.

Thanks for the help and how to information.

This is turning out to be more than I figured it would be so a new learning curve.

When I first started using Puppy Linux Tahrpup updated using Quickpet and PPM and that was it.

It is late and I tired so I'm going to bed.

Thanks again everyone I'll have a better look tomorrow after I get some sleep.

Yes, It's surprising how much a good night's sleep (and a couple cups of coffee ) help to clarify things.
Actually, though, thanks to radky and dimkr updating Bookworm is almost identical to the way I updated safely Fossapup but with advantages. Fossapup's quickpet was nice but limited to bug-fixes and the few applications 666philb made available thru quickpet's repository. Eventually, its core systems and even the versions of the applications quickpet provided became out-dated: an update required an entire replacement --F96. And Fossapup64 lacked apt and synaptic which --with the few exceptions that apt-mark hold creates-- expands the choices a User has in adding applications and keeping them current to debian's entire, extensive repository.
I know I've occasionally been at odds with dimkr. We place different emphasis on some things. But there's no question that primarily through his efforts to bring Puppy more in line with debian, Bookworm is a very versatile operating system which --from a User's viewpoint-- works pretty much as older Puppy do, but whose applications can be kept up-to-date thru 10 June 2028. https://endoflife.date/debian

p.s. In reply to your last post. Advice and instructions help. But trying is actually how we all progress even if it means we sometimes fall. So keep trying. A couple of tips from someone who falls often.
(1) If not already present, add a stanza to your menu.lst/grub.cfg enabling you to boot 'pfix=ram'. That enables you to recover if you really screw up.
(2) When you create* a SaveFile/Folder you can add a descriptive name to it, e.g. dpupsave-winetest, or dpupsave-Sep01. Booting pfix=ram enables you to safely duplicate an existing SaveFile/Folder and give it another name: Right-Click dpupsave-Sep01, Select Duplicate from the pop-up menu, name the duplicate dpupsave-Sep02. You can also now copy the 'good' SaveFile/Folder to somewhere safe, where booting up Puppy won't see 2 Saves and halt while you decide which. Again booting pfix=ram enables you to delete a Save and replace it with one you've 'backed-up' before things got weird.
Having a safety net removes a lot of the fear of failing.

* If your SaveFile/Folder doesn't already have a descriptive name, you can boot pfix=ram and edit to add one.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 2:33 pm

Yes, It's surprising how much a good night's sleep (and a couple cups of coffee ) help to clarify things.

Good Morning,

Yes a good nights sleep and a pot of coffee does help to clarify things.

I'm having coffee now.

My apologies for sounding grumpy yesterday evening I get that way at times.

Thanks

d-pupp wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

No.
Puppy is different you update it by downloading the newest iso

Okay so where do I find the newest iso or is Bookworm Pup64 10.0.1 the latest iso at this time.

viewtopic.php?t=8690

Thanks.

Okay so where do I find the newest iso or is Bookworm Pup64 10.0.1 the latest iso at this time.

Yes
Your link is the correct one (Main forum page > Mainline Puppy linux Distros > Bookworm Pup64 > Bookworm Pup64 10.0.1) Top of the page
Looks to me like 10.0.1 is the latest
Click on the link and it will start downloading

You can check your current version by running this command from the terminal

cat /etc/os-release |awk '/PRETTY_NAME/'

or by looking in the drive icon on your desktop (/mnt/home/bw64/) They will have names like xxxx_10.0.1.sfs. The 10.0.1 part is the current version

Note; When upgrading all of your changes to Bookworm are in 1 save file or folder depending on the option you picked when you first installed. Make sure you keep that save file or folder or all your changes will be lost!!
I think in Bookworm it is called dpupsave-xx (The xx is whatever you typed when did the first install)

The good thing about this setup is you can backup that save file or folder and restore your system to the way it was if you mess something up
Menu > Utility > Pupsave Backup

Do you know what type of file system you are using? ie fat ext3 or 4

Okay great I see where a new release of Bookworm Pup64.

https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=8690

I'll install it and I should be good for awhile I hope.

In the meantime I'll be giving the method below a try and see what happens.

d-pupp wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

No.
Puppy is different you update it by downloading the newest iso
mount the iso by clicking on it and copy the files to another folder
Then boot into another puppy or linux and copy the files over your current Bookworm install
You need theses files
Anything with ending with a .sfs, initrd.gz , isolinux.bin, ucode.cpio , and vmlinz
Reboot Bookworm and your done.

The location of your current files are /mnt/home (There should be a drive icon on your desktop)

Thanks everyone.

@tammi806

Concerning Bookworm Pup64 updates:

Typically, Debian will provide upstream point releases at 2 to 4 month intervals (sometimes more often), and each point release contains the full aggregate of packages updated since the prior point release.

Currently, dimkr provides automated Woof-CE builds of Vanilla Dpup at 1-week intervals. However, BW64 builds are not automated and (for me) manual builds require much testing prior to release. Perhaps a realistic release schedule for future BW64 updates would coincide (if necessary) with upstream Debian Bookworm point releases.

radky wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:44 pm

tammi806 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 5:22 pm

Just installed Bookworm Pup64 frugal install to a USB flash drive.

Do I need to update my new install using these commands in the terminal.

Code: Select all

apt update && apt upgrade 

I ran the commands and there didn't seem to be any updates.

@tammi806

Concerning apt update and apt upgrade as implemented in BW64, please see the following Help resource:

Puppy Menu - > Help -> HOWTO use the APT Package Manager

Also, as previously explained by @dimkr:

The apt upgrade option will only update user-installed packages. Updates for preinstalled packages are (intentionally) disabled using apt-mark hold to avoid updates that may pollute your save file/folder and/or slow down the system, and to prevent updates that may overwrite Woof-CE build-time customizations of Debian packages.

You can use apt-mark unhold to allow updates to a package, but this is risky. Updating your entire Puppy to a new Woof-CE build is a much safer way to update all core system packages.

And ability to upgrade is the major weakness of most frugal installed systems, which is why I often use full installs, which tend to be, let's face it, reliable and rock solid on such matters.

In practice, it is often the case that a new package needs underlying system files upgraded to newer version because these new versions are dependencies.
A case in point was the discussion in what chess app to use on BookwormPup64, and someone suggested PyChess for desktop, but apt failed to install it, because, as I discovered (albeit whilst using Firstribit FR_Bookwormpup64), it needed major upgrades of underlying libs and so on. I didn't myself know BookwormPup64 had resorted to marking so many packages for holding back, which effectively neutered its apt implementation (do the DebianDogs have this problem? - presumably they only hold back key components like maybe glibc - I guess @fredx181 can tell us - or maybe DD has same somewhat major problem - I used DD for years and don't remember such issues?).

In my chess app related post I showed how to install PyChess by removing all the holds in one go, but gave caveat on "at user risk": viewtopic.php?p=125862#p125862

A lot of things in Puppy are at user risk, but most always traditional Puppy has worked pretty well despite PPM limitations. Having apt availability in latest Debian-based Pups is huge advantage, but that advantage is wasted pretty big time if you can't rely on it to install available packages without having to rebuild and re-install the whole system.

I noted that apt has a "showhold" option: "apt-mark showhold" provides list of marked packages and I thus used that information to remove all such holds, prior to apt update, via the code line:

apt-mark unhold $(apt-mark showhold | xargs)

after which, I was then able to successfully use:

apt upgreade && apt install pychess

Most users, would probably have given up, and if they really wanted to use pychess would have moved on to using a different distribution that Puppy and that would be the end of that.
I doubt, by the way, that savefolders remain very compatible at all with new builds for the very reason the dpkg database in the savefolder you want to use is going to be 'wrong'.

Personally I feel better mechanisms should be devised such that apt actually works for most package installs most of the time, when needed. Having to rebuild whole distro all the time is hardly a good advert (and of course rarely, if ever, mentioned when touting Puppy Linux frugal install 'advantages' on the likes of Distrowatch).

wiak wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 4:11 am

I doubt, by the way, that savefolders remain very compatible at all with new builds for the very reason the dpkg database in the savefolder you want to use is going to be 'wrong'.

Puppy has a mechanism that takes care of this. On update, it takes the newer package version from the Puppy you're updating to and apt has a correct dependency tree with the actual versions.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:05 am

wiak wrote: ↑Sun Jul 14, 2024 4:11 am

I doubt, by the way, that savefolders remain very compatible at all with new builds for the very reason the dpkg database in the savefolder you want to use is going to be 'wrong'.

Puppy has a mechanism that takes care of this. On update, it takes the newer package version from the Puppy you're updating to and apt has a correct dependency tree with the actual versions.

good to hear

I took a save from BookwormPup64 10.0.6 and used it with BookwormPup64 10.0.7

Using it now and it seems to be all good.

I did get some messages about it updating, during the boot process.
Usually this is about changing anything that may have a specific version identifier and making it identify with the newer version.

The old save had an older version of the Nvidia driver, than is now available for 10.0.7.
It was compiled for the kernel version in 10.0.6, that is not the same kernel in 10.0.7.
I think the updating had something to do with this driver.
That older driver is being used now in 10.0.7.
Maybe something to do with dkms stuff.