Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

I am adding a new edit to this posting.
I was informed that having more than one subject per thread would be confusing. It's getting that way.
I'm taking the subject of partitions to its own thread.
It's called "Partition information for Puppy" by Black Knight
viewtopic.php?t=8856

I have been doing some exploring on the structure of the linux kernel and how it communicates with other functions. I want to understand the very basics of this so I can make wiser decisions on what to do next.

I'm at the point where I need to learn simple things like how to choose the correct stable release for my hardware and user needs.

I'm also at the point where I may need to learn partition size and choice. I do know how to make partitions and size them and have a working Puppy OS system running now. All I might need is ways to make my setup better.

I did learn recently that the swap partition should not be on the SSD as it does a lot of re-writes and could cause damage to the sector that the swap file is on. Is this true? These are the kinds of things I need to learn.

Then I'll need to learn how to choose apps and install and test them and un-install to try different apps until I find ones that work best for my needs.

Now I'm done rambling. I hope my beginner terminology makes sense.

I am now adding more detail about our system.
Thanks for letting me know it is needed.

I have a IBM ThinkPad, lenovo R60
2x Intel, 2 cpu t5500@1.66GHz
memory 2G
Kernel 4.9.58 (x86_64)
C library GNU 2.23(stable)
cached swap 0

I will be using a USB SSD as my main hard drive and a thumb drive for Puppy.
Currently using XenialPup 7.5, it's working quite well now.

I have read that some people are using more than one Puppy and have one structured for banking, desktop, dirty Internet surfing, and perhaps with different Internet browsers, etc. Is this a good idea or not necessary?

As Mike W. requested, I will not put too many more questions to confuse the issue.

So basically, I'm trying to get a reasonable foundation knowledge to start from before I get into other questions that might confuse the thread or me.

I have had some issues selecting the correct apps to add to our Puppy and might have actually installed them incorrectly and caused conflicts at times. I'm sure I can be taught how to get this problem solved!

i.e., choose the right app and learn how to install it correctly. If it doesn't work, how to un-install it and try another until I find one that works.

If you think I should break this into 3 threads for each individual subject I will be glad to do so.

Please be direct and don't worry about my feelings. I just want to learn it.

Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

BK

Found this very basic flowchart. Is it a basic yet accurate concept?

Hi, I know this answer could be not what you want, but it could be a good starting point:
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic ... 307#p14307

I suppose your Lenovo Thinkpad R60 characteristics are the basic features for this computer; a 2 GHz Intel Core Duo processor, a 15-inch TFT screen and a hard drive of up to 100 GB (you are using a SSD, but it is not as important as you 1Gb RAM). The memory included in the basic configuration is 1 GB and the graphics card is an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400.

Basically.-

Install.- .- MENU- Puppy SetUp - PPM (Puppy Package Manager) download and install... test, try and decide, jajaj

Unninstall.- MENU - Puppy SetUp- PPM (Puppy Package Manager). UNNINSTALL.-

There are thousands of things to talk about, but with this you can start installing and testing things.

AHHH... AND WELCOME TO PUPPY WORLD.- CHEERS

HERE YOU CAN FIND USEFUL PETS, PROGRAMS, DISTROS .... I think it could be useful for you.-

https://www.protopage.com/pp4mnkt3am#Pu ... uPPy_Linux

ABOUT SWAP:

This is my personal oppinion.- I never used swap, I have enough RAM so I don't need it at all.
It's possible you need it with 1 Gb and the use you will do to your system, but I recomend you to read what is the oppinion of other users with the same RAM as you.

https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=115713

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]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

N.B.- For Xenial 7,5 I was using during a lot of time this two webs (included at previous mentioned page):

https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/p ... es-xenial/

and

https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_Xenialpup64

With these pages you can find docens of funny hours.- CHECK THEM.-

Lets start with your hardware.

1. What is the CPU?
2. How much ram does it have?

wizard

Black Knight wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:59 pm

...If you think I should break this into 3 threads for each individual subject I will be glad to do so...

One question per thread makes it easier on everyone. As this thread gets longer, pay attention to how hard it is to keep track of everything everyone is saying about each question. Then imagine someone who is trying to help with one of your questions. They have to wade through new posts about all your other questions to see if anything new has been said about the one they're trying to help with. Or imagine that you're someone who's reading through this thread looking for an answer to a particular problem they're having.
You did a pretty good job with the subject line but it doesn't have to be so terse.

Hi again:

About @Flash answer about writing one or three threads......

I agree with him it is better writing three, you made answers easier, but.... I suggest you to write in each one of them an introduction about your system, necessities, uses.... etc to put the message into context.

(A simply copy/paste could be enough, I think, because it is possible google consider it the incorrect way.. who knows, )

Welcome again,- you gonna find a good community, probably the best thing of puppy,

To understand Puppy Linux and how it is different.
You need to read over the topics in this section of the forum.
viewforum.php?f=184

Puppy is Linux, but it uses Linux in the Puppy way of operating.

Every one of you has earned a thanks.

You gave me more than enough to keep me learning and finding better questions as I learn.

I would like to respond to each of you but me thinks it would complicate this thread.

I look forward to reading all the links and finding out what I need to learn.

I am a fond believer that the first thing to learn is (there is more to learn than what I know now).
Then the second is finding a good question.
Then you learn more and your questions hopefully get better.

Now you gave me something to work with.

Thanks

I agree......

Puppy Linux group is helpful and friendly.

If I find that too many subjects on this thread start to get confusing I will gladly split it up for clarification.

Thanks again

BK

@Black Knight
Some notes in reply to your ""Q about partition size (etc).

Partition size & choice:
I will add "partition type" to your list.
You wrote: you are at the point where you need to learn partition size & choice.
I think, by "choice" you mean format. You can use various formats; your purpose will determine the type you use.
If you wish to transfer files eg a text file between Puppy Linux and Windows you must use a Windows compatible format - eg FAT32 or NTFS.
For files within the Puppy OS only (or Linux more generally) many people use extension 3 or 4 - in gPartEd ext3 or ext4.

Partition size:
First - I generally use older PCs without UEFI - so the legacy BIOS. I'm not writing about UEFI.
Perhaps my choices will help you make a decision between partition formats and size.
I assume you use gPartEd (menu -> system -> G Parted partition manager.

To make a bootable device:
I divide a "storage device" (HDD, thumb drive, SSD) into 3 partitions - P1, P2, P3.
P1 is always small - it needs to hold only a few files that run in conjunction with the boot-loader.
So - P1 is formatted as FAT32, perhaps 48 to 80MiB. Remember, (after formatting) set the boot-flag.

P3. I always put the operating system files on partition #3. If storage device space is small you can make P3 as small as 2GiB. I generally choose 4 to 12GiB, taking the size of the device into account.
I prefer ext3. Other prefer ext4. Each has an advantage and a penalty.

Partition #2: Whatever is available after you allocate space to P1 and P3. Again, I format to ext3.

I think MikeSLR described how to use Grub4DOS, but if you need to know something, post a "Q", ok?

(end of my comment about partition type and size).

Other useful comment:
On the Puppy forum, here
-> https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... X&start=10
you will find an excellent method to reliable install puppy onto a HDD or thumb drive.
Go to the posting at the end of the thread. MikeSLR's method is a 'breeze'. Also, not the link to part #2 of his method.

Alternately, use the search engine key: Manual Frugal Install with some Rox Tips (by MikeSLR).

cobaka

@Black Knight

Getting Application Software.
I read in the thread (below) about the Puppy Packet Manager. Menu -> Setup -> Puppy Packet Manager.
This is a very good tool to locate and install applications. I imagine you will need FireFox and LibreOffice.
They are the main applications I use (that aren't already included in the Puppy Package).

Alternately, you can bash your head against a brick wall and ask Dr. Google to find a squashed file system for Firefox (and so on).
I've done that too. Found/downloaded Libre-Office as a squashed file system, copied it into (or onto) partition #3 (where the Puppy OS files 'live' and click on it. Bingo! The "app" will load/install and be ready to use.
I hope this helps a little.

cobaka.

One other thing: I always create a directory (or folder) called "Archive". I make sub-directories thus:
mnt/sda2/archive/PupOS/kennel/
or mnt/sda2/arcive/Pup_applications
and so on.
This is where I keep my 'master'/original files.
Then I put the device in a safe place - well away from my working PC.

@Black Knight :-

I will say this much. You're already discovering that Puppy, like any other Linux distro, generates its own specific issues in addition to the general run of things that every relatively inexperienced user is presented with when learning Linux.

You've doubtless also figured out by now that for every question you ask, there will be a ton of differing answers, as community members offer their own thoughts and ideas on how things should be done, and the 'best' approach to take. Don't let this overwhelm you. I think every Linux user goes through a spell of this in the early days, and almost invariably, the same questions get asked, over & over again.

Ten years ago, it was just the same for me. I'd already given Windows the "bum's rush" some months previous, and had been using Ubuntu for a while. Upon coming to Puppy, I asked exactly the same slew of questions as anyone else, mostly related to how things were done in Puppy - ROX-filer in particular; it was SO different to any file manager I'd used before, though now I won't even look at anything else! - and, bit by bit, I sieved through the morass of conflicting opinions, and eventually began to understand just what was what.....and how it all functioned together.

-------------------------------------

You've joined a good community here. The early stages of learning the Puppy "way" of doing things DOES usually involve a fair bit of reading, the contents of which you need to digest at your own pace. It's not a contest to see who can comprehend stuff the quickest; we all learn in different ways.....the important thing is that you take in what you need to know, in a way that you yourself can understand it, and, more importantly, that you're able to retain that knowledge so it will be of use to you in the future.

Don't ever be afraid of asking what may seem to you to be "stupid" questions. There IS no such thing as a "stupid" question; the only "stupid" question is the one that you don't ask when you need to know..! As a community, we try to make sure that every member gets the most out of their Puppies/Dogs/whatever.....and each & every member is as deserving of help as every other. Sometimes you may not get answers as quickly as you'd like, but as with all fora across t'internet, the time-zone thing plays a big part. When I'm turning in for the night, somebody else is just logging-in.....

The only other thing I will add is this. Try to make the title of your thread something that is not only descriptive, but also interesting. Most forum members tend to "skim" initially, reading over the front page to see what threads are current.....and from there, will look at anything that grabs their interest.

It's a 'skill' that needs to be learnt, just like anything else..! And as time passes, you'll probably find you want to start answering other people, and in your turn passing-on what you've found works for YOU. Shared knowledge benefits everybody; even I find I'm still learning things after all this time!

----------------------------------------------------

With regard to SSDs and 'swap'; you've got the right general idea, just not quite the right specifics. With SSDs, you have to stop thinking in terms of sectors, cylinders & heads.....this is HDD terminology, and SSDs work quite differently.

With SSDs, it's all about maximizing the "life" of every individual flash "cell". To this end, SSD controllers don't write stuff into contiguous blocks; they tend to write stuff all over the drive, ALL OF THE TIME. This is because of the algorithms they employ, which try to ensure that all "cells" are being written-to at an even rate.

So, yes; the idea that 'swap' shouldn't be used on SSDs is perfectly correct. It's just the reasons that are slightly different, that's all.

Hope that helps to clear a wee bit of the fog!

Mike.

Not to 'rain on your parade' but scanning this thread indicates that you seem to have decided to use the fat32 format. It is not the best format for running Puppy. There are a couple of things to consider.

OOTB Puppys place READ-ONLY file-system on your storage media which, on boot-up, are copied into RAM. In order to preserve settings, customizations, and additional applications you install you can either create a SaveFile, SaveFolder or create other read-only file-systems using the Save2SFS module of the nicOS-Utilitie's Suite, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=1694. But see also, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=8564. Creating READ-ONLY file-system is great, has some distinct advantages BUT are harder to change. I recommend them once you know your way around and know exactly what your want your Puppy to do.
A SaveFile can be located on any storage media. But it has a fixed size. It actually creates a Linux formatted block of space on that media. There's an application to increase (none to decrease) that size. It requires a reboot. If you try to put more files/data into a SaveFile than it can hold, the SaveFile can be corrupted and unusable. There's a warning, but you might get it after half an application has been written to the SaveFile: undoing is a problem.
So for newbies, the best technique for preserving settings, customizations and adding applications is a SaveFolder. It's just a folder which will automatically (contract) and expand as needed, even to the full extent of the partition on which it's located. But that partition must be formatted as Linux. Linux Ext3 or Linux Ext4 are recommended.

If you intend to locate a boot-loader on a drive (hard or USB) almost all boot-loaders and in particular those employing the UEFI boot mechanism require a Fat32 or (maybe) ntfs partition. That partition can be small, less than 200 Mbs. However, OOTB Windows can NOT READ Linux Formatted partitions. [There's a program you can install. But I don't want my Windows willy-nilly reading the content of Linux formatted partitions. Linux in general and Puppy Linux in particular operate without any anti-malware. Windows has 80+ % of the personal computing market so is the 'rich target' for miscreants. There are thousand of versions of Linux, all somewhat different: a miscreant's night-mare].
So if you want a Windows operating system to be able to access the external drive, it will have to have a partition formatted as Fat32. And it will have to be the first partition: Windows won't read beyond that. In short, you'll want at least 2 partitions: an initial Fat32-bit followed by a Linux Ext3 or Ext4.

Puppys run 'as Administrator/Root': They can access any Fat, ntfs or Linux Ext partitions and write, move or copy files between them.

mikeslr wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:56 pm

So if you want a Windows operating system to be able to access the external drive, it will have to have a partition formatted as Fat32. And it will have to be the first partition: Windows won't read beyond that. In short, you'll want at least 2 partitions: an initial Fat32-bit followed by a Linux Ext3 or Ext4.

Yes that's what I do most often if I want a bootable usb stick; whether I use a tiny FAT32 first partition or a big one depends if I'm actually intending using it for storage purposes too or simply for the boot files.

More usually however, I set up grub2 on my main system hard drive (be that SSD or whatever) and then I just format whole usb sticks with Linux-type format such as ext4 (I usually turn off ext4 journaling in that case to save writes to the usb stick). In this case the usb stick itself does not contain any bootloader (just the frugal installed Linux), but the grub2 on the main system hard drive can boot from that usb stick once given appropriate grub configuration menu stanza to access it (via say the usb stick partition UUID where the frugal install is or via usb stick partition LABEL if one was assigned).

Trying to keep it simple while explaining to a 'Puppy newby' I didn't mention using Linux Ext4 and turning off journaling. "A journaling file system is a file system that keeps track of changes not yet committed to the file system's main part by recording the goal of such changes in a data structure known as a "journal", which is usually a circular log. In the event of a system crash or power failure, such file systems can be brought back online more quickly with a lower likelihood of becoming corrupted." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journaling_file_system. That's why Linux Ext2 is NOT recommended. It doesn't employ journaling.

This post explains the similarity and differences between Linux Ext3 and Ext4. https://opensource.com/article/18/4/ext4-filesystem. Writing in 2006, Ext4's creator characterized it as a stopgap technology which significantly extends ext3 but is still reliant on old technology. He expects it to be supplanted eventually by a true next-generation filesystem. 17 years later it hasn't been. My reading that post suggests two advantages to Ext4: (1) ext3 uses 16-bit internal addressing. This means that with a blocksize of 4K, the largest filesize it can handle is 2 TiB in a maximum filesystem size of 16 TiB. Important if you are hosting a Web-server. Of no moment if you have a 4 Tib drive and could get by with 1 Tib if you had to. The 16 Tib cap is NOT cumulative. Using Ext3 you could have several 16 Tib drives.
Reason number (2) is that almost all LInux Operating systems OTHER THAN PUPPY constantly Read-from and Write-to the Storage Medium. For example, type the letter 'i' to a document on Storage and that 'i' is written to 'Storage'. I operate Puppys under PupMode13, the default for USB-Keys, and available with two small, easy changes to use with hard-drives. Under PupMode13 changes are stored in RAM and only written to Storage when a Save is executed.

Ext4 adds and writes a second instance of comparing what's being written to storage. So writing takes longer (measured in micro-seconds to seconds depending on the size being written) and occupies slightly more space on Storage (not really significant even with USB-Keys). But that it does more writing is why Ext4 is not recommended for USB-Keys: it may shorten their life.

Since I want some checking, Ext3 is my preferred choice even for hard-drives.

Perhaps the most important thing to know about Ext4 is that it is the default used by most Linux distros and that their partitioning applications creates a 64-bit file-system partitions. Although Puppys can be located on such, some of puppys boot-managers can't write to it. Puppys' own gparted is a special build: The Linux Ext4 file-system it creates is only 32-bit. [When I install a 'Major Linux Distro' I choose 'customize' so that it will create Ext3 partitions on which I can also locate Puppys if I choose. But more importantly, I can use Puppy's grub2config to create a boot-manager that will offer to boot Windows, almost all Major distros, and every Puppy.].

mikeslr wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:14 am

almost all LInux Operating systems OTHER THAN PUPPY constantly Read-from and Write-to the Storage Medium.

I presume you mean "other than distros whose main discussion threads are on this forum" - not just Puppy. None of the KL-distros I work with normally constantly Read/Write to storage medium - rather I use all of them in save on demand mode only where session changes are only stored in temp RAM unless the user wants to save the work to persistence. Not good, I certainly feel since misleading in reality, to suggest the likes of KL and DebianDog don't provide equal facility in terms of RAM modes as Puppy Linux; they do. Different matter with many mainstream distros of course, though there are plenty of other small distros out there such as Slax and AntiX that also don't constantly Read/Write to storage medium and haven't done so for a decade or more.

Puppy Linux is different from many others in being a single (root) user only distro (aside from pseudo normal user spot) and having its own package manager PPM (though that is changing since now Debian apt and Void xbps is available in some Pups) and is one of several distros that does not use systemd (didn't used to use pulseaudio but has given up on being alsa-only to a large extent now) but instead uses its own Puppy scripts in its sysVinit implementation. Puppy releases are similar in size to DebianDogs and most KL variants, but still tries to keep things lean - the upstream repos and size of major components most everyone wants nowadays in practice (webbrower and the likes of LibreOffice, Gimp, Inkscape, Blender and so it goes on) makes that difficult nowadays though - in practice, as you know, we simply install big stuff after initial download and, when using multiple Pups, may use sfs portable-type apps or indeed AppImages like other distros do too - but not so much snap (EasyOS on the other hand happy to provide flatpak despite their huge size, which is simply a result of storage size no longer being much of a modern system concern and advantage of the apps actually working without dependency hell). Pretty much all the distro-types (Puppy and non-Puppy) who inhabit this forum (in discussion threads) are able to use sfs addon portables via their differently implemented OS layer systems with many similar features and some additional or different ones. It's not Puppy that provides sfs-load-on-the-fly-without-rebooting capability, that is aufs - any distro using aufs for its layering technology can do that (via the related initrd/init script support). Aufs could be said to be falling out of favour since overlayfs methodology is official supported by Linux kernel team - however alternative sfs-load mechanisms have been provided on most distros here even though they have adopted overlayfs layering and dropped aufs support.

pp4mnklinux wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:34 pm

Hi, I know this answer could be not what you want, but it could be a good starting point:
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic ... 307#p14307

I suppose your Lenovo Thinkpad R60 characteristics are the basic features for this computer; a 2 GHz Intel Core Duo processor, a 15-inch TFT screen and a hard drive of up to 100 GB (you are using a SSD, but it is not as important as you 1Gb RAM). The memory included in the basic configuration is 1 GB and the graphics card is an ATI Mobility Radeon X1400.

Basically.-

Install.- .- MENU- Puppy SetUp - PPM (Puppy Package Manager) download and install... test, try and decide, jajaj

Unninstall.- MENU - Puppy SetUp- PPM (Puppy Package Manager). UNNINSTALL.-

There are thousands of things to talk about, but with this you can start installing and testing things.

AHHH... AND WELCOME TO PUPPY WORLD.- CHEERS

HERE YOU CAN FIND USEFUL PETS, PROGRAMS, DISTROS .... I think it could be useful for you.-

https://www.protopage.com/pp4mnkt3am#Pu ... uPPy_Linux

ABOUT SWAP:

This is my personal oppinion.- I never used swap, I have enough RAM so I don't need it at all.
It's possible you need it with 1 Gb and the use you will do to your system, but I recomend you to read what is the oppinion of other users with the same RAM as you.

https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=115713

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]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

N.B.- For Xenial 7,5 I was using during a lot of time this two webs (included at previous mentioned page):

https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/p ... es-xenial/

and

https://archive.org/download/Puppy_Linux_Xenialpup64

With these pages you can find docens of funny hours.- CHECK THEM.-

Nice posting and helpful.

Your description of our system is correct. Just looked on puppy system info.
Now I know where to look for system info.
Thanks

I will be looking at your links and learning more.

I have done some of this before but your instructions will help me do it right.

Thanks

BK

wizard wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:55 pm

Lets start with your hardware.

1. What is the CPU?
2. How much ram does it have?

wizard

Thanks.

I will post the system info in my first posting to fix this issue.

I get it, you need this info

BK

Flash wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 3:12 am

Black Knight wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:59 pm

...If you think I should break this into 3 threads for each individual subject I will be glad to do so...

One question per thread makes it easier on everyone.
You did a pretty good job with the subject line but it doesn't have to be so terse.

Terse
Brief and to the point; effectively concise.

Forgive my humor but I am not sure if you a correcting me or if it is a compliment.

A slight nudge.
Terse is OK as long as it doesn't leave most people wondering what you meant.

Where to download DebianDog?

username2023 wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:42 pm

Where to download DebianDog?

From the Dog House, of course. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=22