Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Likely this is a hardware issue but would like some suggestions. Two days ago, got this 7 years old PC, very fast. Wiped out Win 8 and installed 3 different pups, frugal install to internal SSD. Now I am noticing poweroff (wmpoweroff), even Ctrl-Alt-Backspace followed by poweroff, result in rebooting in all pups. Reverting to default bios setting, replacing CMOS battery, removing and inserting 1/2 RAM sticks all result in same rebooting behavior when I shutdown. Only way to shutoff is by >3sec power button press. Anyone know a fix?

If I boot into a usb with Ventoy, I am able to shutdown normally as long as I don't install to internal HD!. When I installed ubuntu into internal SSD and boot from it, same cycling boot behavior returns. I am beginning to think maybe it is the motherboard?

@gychang

Woof! Reading your posting raises a good number of questions in my mind.

installed 3 different pups, frugal install to internal SSD.

At first I thought you installated 3 Puppy systems "in parallel" with an advanced menu including an option to select one from three different 'Puppies' on the SSD. Thinking more carefully I believe you installed these serially, one Puppy after the other, wiping the drive (and boot-loader) each time. Please help me understand what you did.

Thus: installed independently, one at a time - when you tried to shut-down any Puppy OS - it re-booted only that Puppy.
That seems the most reasonable interpretation of your description.
Question: Before you shutdown Windows (and deleted it) did you shut Windows down completely?

If I boot into a usb with Ventoy ...

then you have the complete boot/run/shutdown cycle - as expected. My comment: Suggests the PSU is not 'lucking out'.
For about $20 you can buy a PSU monitor, but the PSU is a 'low-level' suspect in my mind.

If the OS in the thumb-drive runs for a longer time (say a day or two) w/out crashing - that suggests memory/CPU system is sound.
(Many years ago I had a system where one memory cell 'floated' from "1" to indeterminate to "0". I wrote a program that monitored that cell.)
(You can get 'test' programs for RAM that boots from a 'device' - eg CD or USB thumb-drive. Would be a useful test.)
Would be most interesting to remove/switch the HDD. Even if you just used a conventional SATA HDD for a few days.

To answer your "Q". On the info available I would not assign the fault to hardware or software ... yet.

cobaka.

cobaka wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:15 am

@gychang

Woof! Reading your posting raises a good number of questions in my mind.

installed 3 different pups, frugal install to internal SSD.

At first I thought you installated 3 Puppy systems "in parallel" with an advanced menu including an option to select one from three different 'Puppies' on the SSD. Thinking more carefully I believe you installed these serially, one Puppy after the other, wiping the drive (and boot-loader) each time. Please help me understand what you did.

Thus: installed independently, one at a time - when you tried to shut-down any Puppy OS - it re-booted only that Puppy.
That seems the most reasonable interpretation of your description.
Question: Before you shutdown Windows (and deleted it) did you shut Windows down completely?

If I boot into a usb with Ventoy ...

then you have the complete boot/run/shutdown cycle - as expected. My comment: Suggests the PSU is not 'lucking out'.
For about $20 you can buy a PSU monitor, but the PSU is a 'low-level' suspect in my mind.

If the OS in the thumb-drive runs for a longer time (say a day or two) w/out crashing - that suggests memory/CPU system is sound.
(Many years ago I had a system where one memory cell 'floated' from "1" to indeterminate to "0". I wrote a program that monitored that cell.)
(You can get 'test' programs for RAM that boots from a 'device' - eg CD or USB thumb-drive. Would be a useful test.)
Would be most interesting to remove/switch the HDD. Even if you just used a conventional SATA HDD for a few days.

To answer your "Q". On the info available I would not assign the fault to hardware or software ... yet.

cobaka.

Should have been more concise with my questions... I deleted installed windows 8 soon after checking if the bios was up to date and it was. Unfortunately I don't recall whether win 8 shutdown normally. Next I booted into ventoy USB with fossapup64. I was able to wipe out the internal SSD using gparted gtp file system. Created Fat32 for EFI, 20G partition for pups (F96-CE-3, upup-22.04-jrb-C2, vanilladpup-9.3.14), 50G for save folder partition, rest for data partition, installed 3 pups using frugalpup installer. Installation was "parallel". Checked bios, changed CMOS battery, checked RAM stickes but problem persisted so I switched the SSD with a smaller SSD (256G), using ventoy usb linux-mint shutdown normally when not installed on the new SSD, but after installation to SSD it kept booting, the same problem... Now I am back to my 3 pup setup with the original 500G Corsair SSD, working well but I can only shutdown with power button...

@gychang
BigPup wrote about the need to shut-down Windows completely here:
-> https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... own#p84915

In another place (- https://www.howtogeek.com/56958/HTG-EXP ... -THE-BIOS/ -) you can read:

UEFI is packed with other features. It supports Secure Boot, which means the operating system can be checked for validity to ensure no malware has tampered with the boot process. It can support networking features right in the UEFI firmware itself, which can aid in remote troubleshooting and configuration. With a traditional BIOS, you have to be sitting in front of a physical computer to configure it.

It [UEFI] is not just a BIOS replacement, either. UEFI is essentially a tiny operating system that runs on top of the PC’s firmware, and it can do a lot more than a BIOS. It may be stored in flash memory on the motherboard, or it may be loaded from a hard drive or network share at boot.

Putting these two items together I figure your tower boots from UEFI and part of the boot/shutdown is "stored in flash memory on the motherboard". I must read more detail about UEFI. Returning to your original posting - where the question is: hardware or software? I'm putting my money on software and specifically UEFI. You may substitute the phrase "I guess" for "I figure". Basically it means: "Is possible, but how would I know?"

I imagine you read this (below)? Did you perform any of these procedures? Some? All?
-> https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp ... leshooting

If we can chase this bunny down the rabbit-burrow and discover why your PC does not shut down as expected what we learn may help Puppians.
Hope this helps. I wait your next posting.

cobaka

cobaka wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:10 am

@gychang
BigPup wrote about the need to shut-down Windows completely here:
-> https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... own#p84915

In another place (- https://www.howtogeek.com/56958/HTG-EXP ... -THE-BIOS/ -) you can read:

UEFI is packed with other features. It supports Secure Boot, which means the operating system can be checked for validity to ensure no malware has tampered with the boot process. It can support networking features right in the UEFI firmware itself, which can aid in remote troubleshooting and configuration. With a traditional BIOS, you have to be sitting in front of a physical computer to configure it.

It [UEFI] is not just a BIOS replacement, either. UEFI is essentially a tiny operating system that runs on top of the PC’s firmware, and it can do a lot more than a BIOS. It may be stored in flash memory on the motherboard, or it may be loaded from a hard drive or network share at boot.

Putting these two items together I figure your tower boots from UEFI and part of the boot/shutdown is "stored in flash memory on the motherboard". I must read more detail about UEFI. Returning to your original posting - where the question is: hardware or software? I'm putting my money on software and specifically UEFI. You may substitute the phrase "I guess" for "I figure". Basically it means: "Is possible, but how would I know?"

I imagine you read this (below)? Did you perform any of these procedures? Some? All?
-> https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp ... leshooting

If we can chase this bunny down the rabbit-burrow and discover why your PC does not shut down as expected what we learn may help Puppians.
Hope this helps. I wait your next posting.

cobaka

@cobaka I replied to your PM. thanks. To summarize the original HD with windows on it, I wiped it off and partitioned using gparted and removed it. I replaced it with an SSD then installed the pups as I outlined it (using frugalpup installer). I had to disable secure boot initially so it will boot using the SSD and then I notied it refused to cleanly shutdown. Tried replacing the SSD with a newer SSD with the same booting issue... Ventoy USB using linux-mint without SSD install shuts down fine but after install into the SSD again it does not shutdown.

Have you tried this in terminal?

shutdown -h now

Trapster wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:08 pm

Have you tried this in terminal?

Code: Select all

shutdown -h now

I get an error

root@main ~
--> shutdown -h now
bash: shutdown: command not found

equivalent command in pups wmpoweroff keeps rebooting.

Hey fellas:
Generally I stay on topic to keep forum threads uncluttered, but I can't resist this.

The topic was 'shutdown' and 'wmpoweroff'.
Me: Which shutdown
CLI: no reply
Me: which wmpoweroff
CLI: sbin/poweroff
Me: poweroff --help

Puppy linux screen goes black ... everything shuts down.
Well ... I won't do that again. I'm still laughing!

cobaka

cobaka wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:44 pm

Me: poweroff --help

Puppy linux screen goes black
cobaka

mine reboots...

@gychang
Yes - mine too. Screen went black, CPU shut down. But - of course - after that I pressed "go". Puppy re-booted. (Joy!)
Just didn't expect my Puppy to shut down when I passed --help as the parameter.

But - back on topic - I re-read each step you gave and made an ordered list.
I will: (1) read my list and (2) think. (1) is easy. (1) is done.
On (2) Blaise Pascal said, "All humanity's problems stem from a failure to sit quietly and think."

cobaka

@gychang
I made a list of each stage in the process of installation/debugging. Here is my list:

HP Envy - installation history.

[gychang ]Confirmed 'bios' was current.
Deleted the installed Windows

We do not know if Win shutdown was 'full' (or 'suspend') before Win deleted. (I suspect: suspend.)

Using gParted wiped the internal (500GiB) SSD.
Config detail: Greg created FAT32 for EFI, then 20G partition for 3 pups. (a) F96-CE-3, (b) uPup-22.04-jrb-C2, (c) Vanilladpup-9.3.14. 50GiB partition (save folder), rest for data. Then: Installed x3 pups, using Frugal-Installer.
{Next: Implied, not directly stated: Ran each Pup installed on HDD. On shutdown, each rebooted, rather than shutting the Linux-box. Implied, not directly stated: "Thinks": Bugger! didn't expect this.}

[[My observation: Thousands of people have used x3 Puppies, and all shut down in an orderly fashion.
Here - all 3 reliable Puppies do not shut-down, but re-boot when the command is given. Suggests: problem lies outside the OS. Here - x3 Puppies boot & run. Suggests PSU is OK ]]

Greg checked BIOS. Changed CMOS battery, checked RAM sticks.
Problem [re-boot] persisted.

Exchanged SSD -> 256GiB (now smaller) using Ventoy USB-Linux/mint. (Re-reading: I think this step may be out-of-order.)
Shutdown now nomal when OS not installed on 'new' SSD.
[[Observation: As I read this, the OS is booting from a thumb-drive and independently from the SSD. Clearly: normal shut-down is available under some circumstances. There is some diff. bet. OS on thumb-drive and OS on SSD. ]]

After installation to SSD: "Shutdown" possible only using pwr switch.
[[Observation: Here Puppy runs, but 'something' in shutdown sequence is diff't from when Puppy is installed on USB 'thumb-drive'. Problem observed using x2 SSDs. It is possible a 'glitch' exists in the installation software - that possibility is still open, but my money's not on that horse. Switching drives -> problem persists. -> Suggests drive is OK.]]

Current thinking: gychang's Q was: hardware or software? ]]

The common element in 'constant re-boot' is UEFI + (both) SSDs.
Suggests -> UEFI + SSD interaction -> reboot, not shutdown.
It is possible that there is a 'glitch' in the UEFI code (or just faulty EEPROM) but an interaction is more probable.
I suspect UEFI runs from EEPROM (on mother board) and code subroutine only runs when accessing SSD (or maybe SATA).
Would be informative to replace SSD with 'rotating' SATA device.
Conclusion thus far: Seek info about UEFI in this HP envy PC.

cobaka.

cobaka wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:38 am

@gychang
I made a list of each stage in the process of installation/debugging. Here is my list:

The common element in 'constant re-boot' is UEFI + (both) SSDs.
Suggests -> UEFI + SSD interaction -> reboot, not shutdown.
It is possible that there is a 'glitch' in the UEFI code (or just faulty EEPROM) but an interaction is more probable.
I suspect UEFI runs from EEPROM (on mother board) and code subroutine only runs when accessing SSD (or maybe SATA).
Would be informative to replace SSD with 'rotating' SATA device.
Conclusion thus far: Seek info about UEFI in this HP envy PC.

cobaka.

@cobaka Your summary is excellent, I will replace SSD with regular HD soon and see what happens.

@gychang
We must understand the boot-loader, and how the it was installed.

cobaka

@cobaka Grub boot loader was installed using frugalpup from FP64 (ventoy usb stick). Today I will try to switch to a spinning HD and will try linux-mint and FP64 install to see if the shutdown problem persist.

Hello @gychang!

You wrote about installing Pup-OS on a rotating HDD. If that solves the problem - good. We're done.

If 'no' can I suggest a rather quick alternative?
@mikeslr suggested a manual approach to installing Puppy Linux. The installation is done with file-manager ROX.
Since you can boot/run Puppy from a thumb-drive, this method should work for you.

You can find the ROX+'copy' method quickly using the advanced search box (here, on the forum).
I looked for posts only by Mike and with the keywords: manual install +ROX
The title: Manual Frugal Install with some Rox Tips
The link: https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... +ROX#p1788

Mike's description is detailed. I used (I like) his method. Here is my summary:

(1) Download the ISO of interest and check-sum.

(2) Partition & format the 'installation' drive. (The following method 'wipes' the entire device - don't do this if the 'installation drive' contains 'good stuff'!!)
Make a new partition table. MSDOS format, of course. Then partition.
P1 -> FAT32 (say 500Mib). I don't want to tell granny how to suck eggs, but don't forget to set the boot flag for P1.
P2 -> Linux file system, say ext3 or ext4. (You can make other partitions and I (myself) make P2 as "work" and P3 as "OS" (ie where the Puppy Systems files live). This device/drive is the 'installation drive'

(3) On the 'installation-drive' create a directory for the Puppy System Files. You can choose any name, but the directory has to be only one level below 'top'. So .. /mnt/sdZn/PUP_OS Again, I'm confusing my method here because I began by saying put the Puppy OS files on P2 and actually (myself) putting them on partition #3. But I know you are "switched on" to Puppy things and can see past this little confusion.

(4) At this stage you have (a) a thumb-drive (or CD) with a puppy ISO file. (b) the 'installation-drive' with P1 as FAT32 and (c) the same drive with a Linux partition and an empty directory called PUP_OS (or SYSTEM or OS_FILES or ...).
You are now ready to install the operating system file. This is easy-peasy.

(5) With ROX file manager click on the ISO file. That action will 'open' the ISO and you'll see somewhere around one dozen files in a directory.

(6) Select all the files you see and drag and drop them into the PUP_OS folder. There will be 300 .. 500 MiB all-up so the operation will take a short time. After the files are 'copied across' you will see about a dozen files in PUP_OS on the system files partition. Incidently, I often make this partition only a few GiB. You should leave some extra space here - later Puppy will want to put the 'Pup-save' file here. If your 'Pup-save' is huge - you'll need to make the partition correspondingly large - but that's obvious. I try to keep my 'Pup-save' file small.

(7) The OS is now in place. Now configure the bootloader files. I use (shock!) Grub-4-DOS and a legacy boot-loader.
. . Menu -> setup -> Grub-4-DOS. Parameters: I search only within the drive/device mentioned above. I use the legacy boot. (Here - with the re-booting HP 'legacy' may be effective). Then click <go> or <do> or <install> - or whatever.

That's it. If my directions are correct, then you should have a bootable disk (or thumb-drive).
(Now I'll re-read what I wrote ...)
(Ten hours and 50 corrections later ...)

This method is simple and quick. You can install a Puppy OS in less time than it took to write the description above.
Mike's description is complete in every detail. If some-one is doing this for the first time - it's great. My summary is more an overview marking the main way-points in the process. I hope I have not omitted an essential step. (if 'yes' - please tell me.)
I wait for your next posting with great interest.
Will you HP envy shut down in an orderly manner. The while world wants an answer to that question! What will it be?

cobaka

@cobaka I switched to rotating HD and frugally installed FP64 to the HD and was able to boot into FP64 initial screen. Completed quicksetup and I was able to shutdown normally even after creating the initial save folder created!. At this point I thought the problem was solved. I removed the spinning HD and installed the Corsair SSD and again installed FP64 (using frugalpup installer from ventoy USB-FP64). I then booted from the SSD into FP64 and completed quick setup and shutdown normally after creating the first save folder. I was able to shutdown several times and complete my own configuration of FP64 without reboot looping - problem fixed so far. HOWEVER when I frugally installed Vanilladpup-9.3.15.iso along side of FP64 and booted into V...15 and created first save folder, the problem returned. Normal shutdown from V....15 started looping. This looping occurred even when I booted into FP64 and shutdown.

So far, if I use FP64 alone and not have any other puppy iso, shutdown behaves normally. I plan to wipe out the SSD and install CE-4 only and see how the PC behaves... Good thing I have time to kill after my retirement...

@gychang woof!

Yes! Like a true Puppian I howl at the moon on cooler nights - and as a result think about booting Puppy systems.

After reading your posting: Perhaps I should get my grubby hands on a PC and attempt to install/duplicate the problem you describe.
Looking at a local version of eBay (it's called 'gumtree') I see an i3 Levono, sans disk or working battery among the 'free' items. Perhaps I could get this (it's nearby) and see what happens. I'm reluctant to experiment with a working system.

I am unfamiliar with the method you used to install the three Puppies; this is an opportunity for me to learn.

I have a 128GiB SSD I imagine I could put in service. (I am rather unfamiliar with SSD for laptops - and so have no idea about size etc of component inside a laptop. My last real encounter with hardware was writing a driver for a 3.5 inch FDD. Remember them? Anyway, if the SSD I have will fit the Levono - that's an option.)

Or I could install to a small thumb-drive. Generally I avoid the larger capacity drives.
I figure twice the storage capacity roughly equals twice the device failure rate.
Additionally, I use little storage on my Linux box and I don't need GiB of storage.

Finally: If I install/run 3 Puppy kennels from one device with a successful boot/run/shutdown cycle - that will not answer your "Q" about hardware v software on your Linux box. The alternate view would be this: If the setup here duplicates the glitch at your place we can say something; the problem involves software not hardware; more than that the problem is not unique to your system.

The benefit (to me) of doing this will be to learn an alternate method to install/run the Puppy.

cobaka