fossa iso is picky

[tiam]

Just a report after finally installed fossa on a USB stick. It's tricky.

First, BalenaEtcher doesn't work. Grub says no kernel and it messed up partitions that Windows can't recognize nor format it. I even bought a new one still same. After many tries I gave up. By the way Windows diskpart, chkdsk, etc. don't work. A goo third party tool is mini tool partition wizard.

Second, UNetBootin doesn't work. It says succeeded but BIOS just skipped it.

Last, Rufus did it.

What about DD? Download link says offline.

The installation is a little hard but the puppy under the moon (or sun?) scene is very beautiful and calming though.

[bugnaw333]

I have no problem using EasyOS dd:

[bugnaw333]

[mikewalsh]

@tiam :- Hallo.....and to the "kennels"!

Let's address your points in order.

a) One thing that anybody coming from other Linux distros has to get their heads round is this; that "Puppy" is one of the very few Linux distros out there that WILL NOT work with Balena Etcher. Every tech blog on the web recommends Etcher, and for most traditionally-constructed distros that look to use a 'full' installation, it works well. With Puppy, it's a combination of the 'frugal' install type, with all the SFS files, and something else that we've never quite figured out.....we ARE aware of the issue. You CAN do a 'full' Puppy install, but it's not recommended; you get all of the disadvantages, and NONE of the benefits, because all Puppy material is constructed to function with the 'frugal' type of install.

b) Don't take this the wrong way, but why would you expect Windows utilities like 'chkdsk' to work under Linux.....hmm?

c) I'm very surprised to hear that UNetbootin wouldn't work for you. It does for us. Were you trying to use the 'online install' at the top of the GUI window, or were you attempting to install from a local file? The online install won't work, because it was never set up to install that way.

d) Good to hear that Rufus finally did what you needed.

e) 'DD' should work fine - it's a built-in part of every Linux distro, after all - but its one disadvantage is that it copies LITERALLY everything.....including the ISO9660 file-system used when creating the ISO file. Which means that you end up with a read-only stick that you then can't save anything to! There probably is a way round that - 'dd' has a lot of options - but it's not something I've ever really looked into.

Glad to have you with us. Now that you have at least one Puppy up-and-running, we can help you to create a frugal Puppy-on-a-stick (if you still want to, that is). It's really very easy once you've got the hang of things.

Mike.

[wizard]

@tiam

Hi tiam, you have neglected to tell us about your hardware. Here is good information about creating a bootable USB or CD. viewtopic.php?t=5192
Also, you will probably find this information useful: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=184

@mikewalsh Unfortunately, Unetbootin will not make a Fossapup64 9.5 UEFI bootable USB. This is also true for most modern PUPS including S15. The just released F96-CE_1 (based on Fossapup64 9.5) has corrected this.

wizard

[mikewalsh]

Cheers, @wizard . Thanks for the info.......I wasn't aware that WAS an issue. I have "messed-around" with UNetbootin on occasion before, but as I'm sure you're aware, most of us long-term users tend to just manually add-in new Pups and/or boot entries for same if we want to try summat new. I know I do, because it's honestly quicker once you know what you're doing....

Far be it from me to lead anyone astray!

Mike.

[bigpup]

BalenaEtcher doesn't work. Grub says no kernel and it messed up partitions that Windows can't recognize nor format it. I even bought a new one still same

You can probably get the USB sticks back to working condition to use.
It probably formatted them to iso9660 format.
So it needs to get back to normal format and partition setup.

Try this:
Do this from a running Puppy version using programs in it.

Use Gparted to get back to normal setup.
Select the USB stick as device to work on.

Make a new partition table
GParted > Device > Create Partition Table > MS-DOS

Make a partition and format it fat32.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If still no good, may have to first do this and then use Gparted.
In a terminal (console)
Be very careful to identify the USB stick in dev/sd part of command.
In this example it is sdb (on the desktop there are drive icons. Should be one for the USB giving it's label sdb, sdc, sdd, etc.......)

Code: Select all

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M count=1

This basically deletes everything on the drive and writes all zeros on it.

[wizard]

@mikewalsh

I've used Unetbootin a lot because it's cross platform, portable, and user friendly. You can fix the UEFI issue by adding a EFI folder to the root, but that's not a new user thing. Glad F96-CE_1 works with it OOTB.

Thanks
wizard

[mikeslr]

AFAIK, you can use Unetbootin from most (all?) Linux Distros to write a bootloader to a USB-Key even for Puppys other than F-96. However, Unetbootin thinks you're writing Puppy to a CD. So it's instructions on the USB-Key are wrong. After running Unetbootin, before you remove the Key, file-browse into it and edit the syslinux.cfg file.

Per bigpup @ http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 870#861870
"However you can manually tweak the syslinux.cfg file on the USB flash drive.

Change:
Code:
append initrd=initrd.gz pmedia=cd

To:
Code:
append initrd=initrd.gz pmedia=usbflash" Emphasis supplied.

Although you've succeeded using rufus to create a bootable Puppy on a USB-Key, you're going to run into problems saving changes unless you used rufus as explained here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 522#p40522

The price we pay for having a portable operating system which can do what most Linuxes require far more RAM and Storage space is that applications designed for those other Linuxes don't know how to create a fully usable Puppy installation.

[Geek3579]

I also recommend EasyDD. Always works for the installation of an ISO and .img / raw disk image on a USB. I have had issues with Unetbootin back in past years and gave it the flick. I tried to run EasyDD once in another OS (MX-Linux) but it didnt run. So you have to run it from a Puppy OS .

[bugnaw333]

On Windows 10, Balena Etcher did not encounter any problems on F-96 CE iso and it boots smoothly.
but have a problem on the new F-96 CE_1 iso.

[bugnaw333]

On EasyDD, F-96 CE_1 iso is successfully written in the USB stick but it won't boot.

Only Rufus for Windows can write and boot (encounter line problems and pause for 60 secs) successfully.

This is the reason why Windows users mostly like Rufus when trying puppy linux installation...

[tiam]

Thanks everyone, it's a lot information. I think this is a important issue that worth more words on the homepage than only mentioning DD (whose download link is offline).

I'm a little busy right now so I can't reply to each post, but I will read all the stuff here.

[rockedge]

@bugnaw333 We will need to examine the /boot folder and review the boot setup if something has changed.

I don't know how Etcher works so I'll need to review that compared to the Ventoy system and the other USB installers.

I will consult @radky to see what he encountered or if this method was tested. I know I have not tried to use Etcher.

[stevie pup]

Balena Etcher works in the same way as DD, so you end up with the whole USB stick as an ISO9660, which you can't save anything to. What I think this thread highlights (yet again). and what irritates me, is the lack of consistency. The fact that what works perfectly well for one person may not work at all for someone else, and often for no apparent reason.

I personally have had most success with Rufus, although that hasn't been 100%. I've tried an awful lot of USB makers, but I haven't yet found one that works with all Puppies.

[mikeslr]

Balena Etcher works in the same way as DD, so you end up with the whole USB stick as an ISO9660, which you can't save anything to. What I think this thread highlights (yet again). and what irritates me, is the lack of consistency. The fact that what works perfectly well for one person may not work at all for someone else, and often for no apparent reason.

I personally have had most success with Rufus, although that hasn't been 100%. I've tried an awful lot of USB makers, but I haven't yet found one that works with all Puppies.

I keep forgetting the term ISO9660. . Balena Etcher and other 'burning-to-USB-Keys' applications work properly for the Linuxes they expect to be used for: they create INSTALLATION MEDIA. The user 'burns' the ISO to a USB-Key, then boots up that Key and uses it to install the OS to a hard-drive. The User does not expect to run LinuxMint, Manjaro, OpenSuse or almost any other 'Major Distro' indefinitely from a USB-Key. Some 'Major Distros' now provide their own applications to create a portable (i.e., boot from USB-Key) version after you've installed it to a hard-drive. And rufus (except of a couple versions after 3.17) provide the user with the option to create a separate partition on the USB-Key for 'persistence' --i.e. saving applications etc. back to the Key-- which some distros can use. The link I provided was to a post which detailed how to use rufus in that manner so that Puppys would have a partition on the USB-Key on which to write SaveFile/Folders.

But Puppys are designed to be a portable whose operating system components are modular (not unitary). I don't know of any applications/programs which can properly handler that other than rufus and LICK under Windows, unetbootin (after manually editing syslinux.cfg), ISOBooter (if available from the other Linux) and maybe limine boot loader (I haven't explored).

The work-around is to use the installation Key to install Puppy to a 2nd Key. Puppys' Frugal-Installer, grub2config and (for Non-UEFI computers only) grub4dos and several other applications can be used to deploy Puppys to such 2nd Key. Those applications --if not builtin-- can be downloaded, installed and --after re-starting-X-- run.

[tiam]

@tiam :- Hallo.....and to the "kennels"!

Let's address your points in order.

a) One thing that anybody coming from other Linux distros has to get their heads round is this; that "Puppy" is one of the very few Linux distros out there that WILL NOT work with Balena Etcher. Every tech blog on the web recommends Etcher, and for most traditionally-constructed distros that look to use a 'full' installation, it works well. With Puppy, it's a combination of the 'frugal' install type, with all the SFS files, and something else that we've never quite figured out.....we ARE aware of the issue. You CAN do a 'full' Puppy install, but it's not recommended; you get all of the disadvantages, and NONE of the benefits, because all Puppy material is constructed to function with the 'frugal' type of install.

b) Don't take this the wrong way, but why would you expect Windows utilities like 'chkdsk' to work under Linux.....hmm?

c) I'm very surprised to hear that UNetbootin wouldn't work for you. It does for us. Were you trying to use the 'online install' at the top of the GUI window, or were you attempting to install from a local file? The online install won't work, because it was never set up to install that way.

d) Good to hear that Rufus finally did what you needed.

e) 'DD' should work fine - it's a built-in part of every Linux distro, after all - but its one disadvantage is that it copies LITERALLY everything.....including the ISO9660 file-system used when creating the ISO file. Which means that you end up with a read-only stick that you then can't save anything to! There probably is a way round that - 'dd' has a lot of options - but it's not something I've ever really looked into.

Glad to have you with us. Now that you have at least one Puppy up-and-running, we can help you to create a frugal Puppy-on-a-stick (if you still want to, that is). It's really very easy once you've got the hang of things.

Mike.

a)That's true, because I used it for Linux Mint and Lite (the latter failed to detect existing OS and wiped out the whole disk)

b) I was in Windows 10 and it was an old USB stick. I didn't realize it's a partition problem at first and was just trying everything I could find from the web. Then I thought Diskpart could at least recreate a partition, it did but couldn't format it.

c) I installed Bionic once using UNetbootIn if I remembered correctly. Strange.

e) The DD download link didn't show a link or start a download session the other day in Windows 10. But it did pop up a download dialogue when I tried again in Puppy.

Frugal is fine, but what's the difference between a frugal installation and the one I just made with Rufus? Is it that a Frugal can have customized partitions (and save SFSes)? Technically is the bootable stick also a Frugal?

[bigpup]

Inside a typical Puppy ISO is all the Puppy operating system files and needed boot loader files to boot it.

What USB installer programs do is open the Puppy ISO, take all the files in it, and place them on the USB stick.
They are placed on the USB sticks partition top layer.
This is a live install.
All the Puppy files and needed boot loader files are now on the USB stick.
Note:
The boot loader in the Puppy ISO is designed for booting only this type install.
This is a one Puppy version install and not setup for any other operating systems on the drive.

A frugal install is all the Puppy operating system files placed inside a folder(directory) on a partition of the drive.

To boot it a boot loader and it's files also need to be installed on the drive.
Usually installed on the first partition, if drive has more than one partition.
This boot loader is not the same boot loader as the one in the Puppy ISO.

With frugal installs, there could be many different Puppy versions, all in their own separate folders or even in different partitions, on the drive.
One single boot loader to boot them all.
Frugal installs can be placed any location, even inside another operating system install. It is just a bunch of files inside a folder.
A folder can go anyplace on a drive. Acts just like any other folder.

Basic operation.
The two types of installs operate the same when Puppy is running.
Puppy operating system files load into ram read only and any changes are stored in a read/write save file or folder.

If you really want to know the operating technical details:
How Puppy works:
http://bkhome.org/archive/puppylinux/de ... works.html

[bugnaw333]

Only Rufus for Windows can write and boot (encounter line problems and pause for 60 secs) successfully.

Rufus will add Syslinux during writing if the iso dont have a boot partition.

[tiam]

I have no problem using EasyOS dd:

ok, now I heard of EasyOS, looks interesting.

[tiam]

@bigpup, to summarize in my own words, Frugal is to install with more options (or multiple copies) to a hard drive, Boot Flash is a special type of frugal installation for flash drive, and the original live boot is a special Boot Flash. May not be 100% precise, it helps me to understand them. I've made a Boot Flash and found it similar to the one burned from ISO file. I'll try other things later.

[stevie pup]

When I referred to a lack of consistency what I was getting at was this. Let's say I create 5 USB sticks with Balena Etcher, each with a different Puppy, or alternatively put 5 puppies on a Ventoy USB. Then I find that 4 of them boot up perfectly but one won't boot at all. That leaves me scratching my head wondering what on earth can be wrong with that one? In cases where something wouldn't boot I think the most common error message I've seen is "can't find SFS file", although I did once see the "missing partition table" message in Balena.

I'm even more baffled by this. Say I create a Puppy USB with Rufus, and everything's fine. Then someone else uses Rufus to create the exact same Puppy, and everything fails miserably. What can be going on there? Why should it work for one person but not another?

Finally, I know a few people swear by Unetbootin, but when I tried it all I got was a headache. Don't know why and didn't bother persevering with it.

[rockedge]

Most of the time the difference is the USB stick itself it seems

[Clarity]

... put 5 puppies on a Ventoy USB. Then I find that 4 of them boot up perfectly but one won't boot at all. That leaves me scratching my head ...

Your observation is accurate. I overcome this with some simple instructions for PUP community users. If you choose to follow the steps you, too, will overcome the issue of your observation while maintaining the same simple ISO file booting to obtain Frugal distro performance with each forum distro.

Simply - On your Ventoy USB partition #1, do:

1. Create a folder named 'BOOTISOS'

2. Move and keep ALL ISOs in this folder (dont worry, Ventoy is smart enough to list them)

3. Add the Super Grub2 Disc (SG2D) file to the folder

This Ventoy USB now has all known items that will boot ALL modern forum PUPs and DOGs and KLVs.

IN operation, for every forum distro that struggles to non-booting via Ventoy:

1. Boot the SG2D ISO from the Ventoy Menu list

2. Hit Enter when SG2D emerges

3. Wait for SG2D to list all bootables including all ISO files

SG2D will boot the ISO files it sees, including the problematic forum distro
[*]
Any problems with these instructions, post back here.

The following comments have NOTHING to do with the above booting steps
P.S. It is 'advisable' that you have a partition on your system drive to keep your saved-sessions within. Using a USB for anything other than ISO file booting or file transport use is not recommended due to many issues with varied USB controllers as well as inconsistent performance behaviors with PCs.

In my case, I have a linux partition on my system drive (sda7) that is labeled "Persistence" with a folder on it named 'Sessions' where ALL forum distros sessions are kept. If using modern PUPs, they will find that partition on boot and will search it for prior sessions you might have saved.

This has worked without fail over the past 3 years.

IN summary

1. Create a partition on your system drive

2. Label the partition Persistence

3. Add a folder on Persistence called Sessions

Keep all forum distro's save-sessions in that folder.

[bigpup]

This is not a response to what clarity posted.

It is a general response, about doing live installs to USB sticks, using non puppy specific installer programs. Ventoy, Rufus, Unetbootin, etc....

Also, the computers UEFI bios version and how it is setup to boot from a USB.

The older the computer, the more chance the UEFI bios is an older version, in the days, when UEFI was still being developed.

None of these non Puppy installer programs, know exactly how to setup a Puppy install, using the correct boot loader menu entries, for booting from a USB install.

One thing they all do, is use the info provided in the boot loader menu config file, provided in the Puppy ISO.
This boot loader config file is still setup for booting from a CD/DVD install of Puppy.

If you look at the menu entries, in the boot menu config file, on the USB stick install.
The pmedia= will be pmedia=cd
It needs to be edited to pmedia=usbflash
That tells the Puppy boot process, to operate specifically for, booting from a USB flash drive install.

The boot loader config files usually used by USB installs.
Grub.cfg
Syslinux.cfg

It may be time for people to release Puppy ISO's, with the ISO provided boot loader, boot menu configured with pmedia=usbflash and not pmedia=cd.
But if someone is still installing to a CD, then it probably will not work.
Catch 22
Well right now you can easily edit the boot menu config file on a USB. It is all read/write capable.
Cannot edit on a burned CD ISO image install. It is all read only.

All the installer programs provided in newer versions of Puppy, know exactly what is needed for installing Puppy.

Keep in mind that no Puppy version is designed to work on all possible computers.
So some Puppy boot problems, are the Puppy version, does not have support for the specific computer, hardware.
that is why, there are always several Puppy versions, to choose to try and use.

[stevie pup]

Most of the time the difference is the USB stick itself it seems

It can be, but I've had situations where it definitely isn't. For example, I've written an ISO file to a USB stick, it hasn't booted and I've had the "can't find SFS file" message. It would be easy to jump to the conclusion that there's something missing, the ISO file is corrupted, or the USB stick is no good. So I've wiped the USB in Gparted, then burnt the exact same ISO to the exact same USB stick using a different method, and lo and behold it boots up fine. This sort of thing leaves me baffled.

Simply - On your Ventoy USB partition #1, do:

1. Create a folder named 'BOOTISOS'

2. Move and keep ALL ISOs in this folder (dont worry, Ventoy is smart enough to list them)

3. Add the Super Grub2 Disc (SG2D) file to the folder

This Ventoy USB now has all known items that will boot ALL modern forum PUPs and DOGs and KLVs.

Thanks for that Clarity. I must admit that of all the various USB creation methods I've tried SG2D is one that I haven't. I was going to give KLV Airedale a spin but that was one that was causing problems. So when I get the time I'll give it a go with SG2D.

Things could be worse though. All my laptops are fairly old and all have Legacy BIOS only, so at least I don't have to wrestle with UEFI.

[Clarity]

... This sort of thing leaves me baffled. ...

YES!

This is why these boot ISO file helpers are so crucial and important to this community's members: If anyone has a Ventoy disk and have it setup as suggested, those issues are eliminated, altogether. All any users would do is download the many forum ISO files to the USB's folder and boot without any of the many issues we have seen on the forum by users attempting to expand or regenerate pups in the old traditional methods.

This does NOT take away any for those member who want to continue using the old writing methods of the past just to boot and review a PUP.

But the use of these boot ISO file helpers have some significant productivity gains and use advantages as it also eliminates the headaches of the past.

We merely download forum's ISO file(s) and boot directly to desktop.

@bigpup I agree PMEDIA change does have an affect. But, I also know, that with most PUP distros, I have rarely changed that when booting via its ISO file. What I have found is the following and I think @gyrog can confirm:

• Although it does NOT appear to affect booting, I think, it affects Puppy decisions in shutdown processing.

• It appears to also be integral in setting the PUPMODE seen upon desktop

• And may affect the SAVESPEC file that WoofCE PUPs are suppose to generate when none present

There may be some other boot parm finding(s) that I am omitting, but old mind at play...

The PSAVE has much more importance booting PUPs via their ISO file.

[Flash]

I also recommend easydd.

[bigpup]

when booting from a live Puppy install.
The only boot loader is the one that was provided by the ISO.

When booting a Puppy ISO by using SG2D.
SG2D has already done half of the operation of a boot loader.
The computer is being controlled by SG2D.
The computers bios is no longer in control.
So now it is all about how SG2D is using the boot info provided in the ISO.

One big problem older Puppy versions had, especially with USB drives.
Was booting too fast.
Not giving the computer bios time to fully get the USB drive up and running.

There was a lot of back and forth testing, on just how much delay to the boot process was needed, to get USB drives fully functional before proceeding.
most settled on 5 sec delay, but the speed of the computers hardware also is a factor on this.
so the Puppy boot process stops for a set time, before it starts to go find the Puppy system files.

Most newer Puppy versions, have a time delay in the boot process, to give USB drives time to fully get functional.

SG2D booting using ISO's is taking time to find and give a list of ISO's to boot.
So the USB drive has had plenty of time to fully get powered up an operational.

[k1e3w5]

Can I just check something ....

I have Fossapup64 9.5 Linux 5.4.53 frugal installed on a Dell dim 5150, working great.

So if I want to put a portable frugal Fossapup64 9.5 Linux 5.4.53 on a USB stick, then the best way is to do it directly from my installed Dell version, and it is easy to do using the installer?

Is this correct?