Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Greetings, puppypeople. I tried to start using FossaPup a year ago and then got distracted. I am back at it again. I would like to make a USB drive that can boot FossaPup on one laptop but then transfer the files I am working on to other computers. In other words, I don't want to save to the SaveFile but to a separate partition. I successfully did this using two USB sticks--one to boot FossaPup and one to save files to--I could transfer files between FossaPup and another computer running Lubuntu. However, I would really like to have the third partition on the boot USB, so I only have to use one USB stick.

Using GParted, I created an "msdos" partition table. Partition 1 is 300MB fat32 boot, partition 2 is 4GB ext4 FossaPup, and partition 3 (sda3) is 3.5GB ext4.
In FossaPup, I can save to sda3 by mounting it and then selecting it in "/mnt/sda3".
However, in Lubuntu, I cannot save to sda3. I can open the files I saved in FossaPup and then do "Save as..." to my Lubuntu desktup, but I cannot write on sda3 at all.

I have looked at GParted and another Disc program to see if there were any permissions I could change on sda3, but I don't see anything. The only thing I can think of is that the USB has to be "gpt" rather "msdos" in order for Lubuntu to write to it. However, that is a problem because, when I make a "gpt" partition table, the laptop I want to run FossaPup on will not boot FossaPup (I can select the "UEFI namename, partition 1" at F12 screen, however when I select it and hit enter, it just boots Windows instead). I have redone the GParted/Frugal Installer process a few times to make sure it is not my user error, but I don't think it is.

(1) Does it sound plausible that my laptop (Dell Latitude 3190--quite new) cannot boot FossaPup if the USB has a "gpt" partition table? If not, what should I try to make that work?

(2) Is there anything I can do to sda3 on an "msdos" partition table to make it writeable in both FossaPup and Lubuntu? (Example: do I need to add a specific label or tag to sda3 in GParted?)

Thank you.

Which operating system did you run gparted from to create the partitions?

You posted that sda3 is Ext4. I would have chosen Ext3 if for no other reason than that you are using a USB-Key and Ext4's journaling writes to it twice while Ext3 writes once. With Ext4 you are less likely to preserve and use mis-written data. But it will wear-out the Key faster.

The Linux Ext4 systems created by gparted under most (all?) Major distros is a 64-bit system. But while Puppys can read and write to 64-bit Linux Ext4 partitions, grub4dos --often used as Puppy's boot-loader-- could not write to 64-bit Linux Ext4 partitions. So, Puppy's gparted creates a 32-bit Linux Ext4 partition. Perhaps Lubuntu does not recognize such formatting. Another reason to employ the universally recognized Ext3.

I used GParted on FossaPup because Frugal Installer is on FossaPup too, but I can look for GParted for Lubuntu. I don't know about computing well, so I don't understand about GRUB, but I seem to remember that when Frugal Installer finishes, it says it has copied files as GRUB2. Maybe that has some effect? Anyway, I will experiment using GParted on another platform. By the way, is Puppy's Frugal Installer program available for main distros like the *buntu series? (Edit: I guess that would only work if you were using an ISO...)

Good advice about Ext3/4. I assume Ext4 would be better for the FossaPup partition and Ext3 more advantageous for a USB in which just text or image documents are being written but written more often?

I will experiment with Ext3 and GParted on other distros. Is it accurate to say that, as far as the partition's un-writability on Lubuntu, these are two different ways of addressing the same problem?

Okay...

I downloaded GParted onto my Lubuntu machine, then used it to re-create almost the same partitions (except changing 3rd to ext3)...
then transfered USB sticks to other machine with FossaPup to install with Frugal Installer...
with the same results...

"msdos" partition table: 300 fat32 boot, 4GB ext4 FossaPup, 3.5GB ext3 writable = boots Puppy, but 3rd partition not writable on Lubuntu machine
"gpt" partition table: 300 fat32 boot, 4GB ext4 FossaPup, 3.5GB ext3 writable = doesn't boot Puppy, and 3rd partition not writable on Lubuntu machine

I also experimented with a very, very old USB stick I have had forever (512MB, circa 1998-2000?). I used GParted on Lubuntu to reformat the USB stick. First, I recreated the same 3-partition structure (fat32, ext4, ext3), and the Lubuntu machine would not write to the 3rd partition. Then I made the whole thing ext3, and the Lubuntu machine would not write to the single partition. Then I returned it to its original single fat16 partition, and the Lubuntu machine WOULD write to it.

Both machines are relatively new Dell laptops, so implications seem to me to be:
(1) gpt is a problem on these machines, or I need to do something differently with a gpt partition table to make Puppy-compatible...
(2) it is likely I need to do something differently when creating ext3 or ext4 partitions on GParted; do I need to do something with labels or tags? I don't know what else it could be...

Hi @ChrisFH.

regarding your point (1):

(1) gpt is a problem on these machines, or I need to do something differently with a gpt partition table to make Puppy-compatible...

You used the Frugal Installer from fossapup64 - which uses grub4dos as bootloader. This will not work with GPT drives. Use grub2config instead ...

peace

Before I forget, you can't use Puppy Installer on a computer which uses UEFI, and being new your computer most likely is. Puppy Installer predates the UEFI technology and writes the grub4dos boot-loader. Your choices are grub2config, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 703#p29703 or frugalpup, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... p=950#p950 or adding a stanza to Lubuntu's grub2 config file, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=2008 and follow the link from the latter; or TerryH's reply here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 641#p71641 and Oaktree's application of that advice, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 480#p72480

Frankly, it seems like your problem is with Lubuntu not Puppy. Although I don't use the gpt structure I'm aware of posts by Puppians who do successfully. Puppy is designed to boot from any medium and having root privileges access any medium not encrypted or exclusively under the control of a different operating system.

Fat32 is a formatting system which AFAIK every operating system can read. But operating systems have their flaws. I know from experience that if I format a USB-Key to have two Fat32 partitions Windows won't see the 2nd. As a test, format your 3rd partition as Fat32 and see if Lubuntu can write to it. My work-around --'though I don't like it as it presents the opportunity to accidentally over-write or delete my bootloader-- is to make a large 1st Fat32 partition. The boot-loader and associated files only require less than 200 Mbs. See what happens if your 1st partition is a Fat32 3.5 Gbs in size.

After you create it, using a Puppy Right-Click an empty space on the first partition, select New>Directory and give it a name such as Transfer. Can Lubuntu read and write to that folder? Having a specific folder reduces the chances that you'll accidentally mess up the boot-related files on that partition's root.

@mikeslr :-

^^^ +1.

Exactly what I, too, was about to suggest...

Strange, this coming up. I've recently decided to have a "play" with Lubuntu again myself, for the first time in several years. In my case, I've approached the issue from the other angle.

With ye anciente Inspiron having "kicked the bucket" a few months back, I had a spare 64GB PATA/IDE SSD looking for summat to do. So; I've made an 'external' case for it - I re-purposed an old Compaq floppy-disk storage box I've had for ages! - bought a PATA/SATA 'converter' that goes directly onto the SSD's pins, and gives me a standard SATA connector on the output side. The drive has been attached to the case with 4 wee rubber feet, using easy-remove glue 'dots'. (Easy to remove again if necessary, and nicely isolated from any vibration).

I've then used a SATA-to-USB3 adapter cable I bought a couple of years ago for another project (I bought two, in fact, because this one didn't work for the external DVD drive I wanted it for), meaning I can run the SSD externally to the main rig purely as a USB drive. Works well, too.

It's been sitting there for couple of months, 'cos I couldn't decide quite what I was going to do with it. Having decided on Lubuntu - just for the hell of it! - I've installed Lubuntu to the now 'external' SSD. And - because this is a completely separate drive - I told the installer to put GRUB2 on that drive's boot sector.

This gave me two options for booting. I could either "chainload" from the Grub4DOS boot menu across to the external drive.......or I could simply boot into sdc from the Grub4DOS 'Advanced' menu. I settled on the second option, as being the simplest, easiest & most hassle-free to implement.

"Chain-loading", technically speaking, is the nicer option of the two, but I'm getting lazy in my old age..!

The whole thing was formatted Ext4, of course, because that's what mainstream distros use by default. I think GRUB 2 insists on it, because of the greater journalling/recovery abilities it confers.

Mike.

ChrisFH wrote:

However, in Lubuntu, I cannot save to sda3. I can open the files I saved in FossaPup and then do "Save as..." to my Lubuntu desktup, but I cannot write on sda3 at all.

Isn't this somehow perhaps a permission issue ? (i.e. the FossaPup files are owned by root and Lubuntu runs probably as unprivileged user).
(but excuse me, perhaps I didn't read this thread enough).

I tried dpup with xfce, and it was nice live, but would refuse to install on a modern GPT partition.

@ChrisFH how do you know it's the drive format preventing installation?

I would gamble if it runs live it would install frugally, so long as your GPT can boot any os.

It is a permission thing with Lubuntu.

Puppy runs as root all the time so anything done in Puppy is root.

I think if you made this 3rd partition ntfs format, anything could read and write to it.

This info may work if you want to keep using ext formats.
https://itsfoss.com/set-write-permissio ... ntu-linux/

mikeslr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:49 pm

Before I forget, you can't use Puppy Installer on a computer which uses UEFI, and being new your computer most likely is. Puppy Installer predates the UEFI technology and writes the grub4dos boot-loader. Your choices are grub2config, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 703#p29703 or frugalpup, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... p=950#p950 or adding a stanza to Lubuntu's grub2 config file, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=2008 and follow the link from the latter; or TerryH's reply here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 641#p71641 and Oaktree's application of that advice, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 480#p72480

Will look into, but I am already using Frugal Installer, which is frugalpup.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:49 pm

Frankly, it seems like your problem is with Lubuntu not Puppy.

For writing to sda3, yes, but for booting, no, because originally I was not using Lubuntu at all during the FossaPup USB creation process.

fredx181 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:15 pm

Isn't this somehow perhaps a permission issue ? (i.e. the FossaPup files are owned by root and Lubuntu runs probably as unprivileged user).

Could very well be! I'm not sure how to change permissions, but will look around for how to do it.

bigpup wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:31 pm

This info may work if you want to keep using ext formats.
https://itsfoss.com/set-write-permissio ... ntu-linux/

Looks good. Too tired now, but will try in another day or two. It seems weird, though--if I use GParted in Lubuntu to make a partition on a thumb drive, that same Lubuntu can't save to the partition? Well, will experiment with it...

bigpup wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:31 pm

It is a permission thing with Lubuntu.
This info may work if you want to keep using ext formats.
https://itsfoss.com/set-write-permissio ... ntu-linux/

Thank you. I used the "chmod 777" command on the partition, and it changed from un-writable to writable. The link you posted suggested against chmod 777, but since this is a USB stick only used for transferring files, I don't see serious danger in using chmod 777 with this partition. Is there anything I'm missing?

bigpup wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:31 pm

It is a permission thing with Lubuntu.

A final (?) question:
I now have a USB like this...
"msdos" partition table: 300MB fat32 BOOT, 4GB ext4 PUPPY, 3.5GB ext3 WRITABLE
...with chmod 777 used on ext3 partition.
I can read and write to the ext3 partition on both Lubuntu and FossaPup. However, when I save Abiword document with FossaPup, it opens in Lubuntu's LibreOffice as a read-only document. Is this a symptom of Abiword-vs-LibreOffice, or is this something to do with the ext3 partition format/permissions, or something to do with Puppy?

ChrisFH wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:35 pm

A final (?) question:
I now have a USB like this...
"msdos" partition table: 300MB fat32 BOOT, 4GB ext4 PUPPY, 3.5GB ext3 WRITABLE
...with chmod 777 used on ext3 partition.
I can read and write to the ext3 partition on both Lubuntu and FossaPup. However, when I save Abiword document with FossaPup, it opens in Lubuntu's LibreOffice as a read-only document. Is this a symptom of Abiword-vs-LibreOffice, or is this something to do with the ext3 partition format/permissions, or something to do with Puppy?

I run into this problem when copying files to external drives sometimes. My guess is it has to do with how the file manager handles permissions when copying. As an experiment, open a terminal and copy the document using the cp command like below, but substitue sdb2 with whatever your drive is actually assigned, and substitute path with the actual directory locations of the source file and copied file:

 (this assumes the file is initially saved with read/write permissions)
cp -av /path/my-file.doc /mnt/sdb2/path/my-file.doc

Your usb stick setup is basically my approach for years. A boot partition with the grub files, and a system partition with the puppy directories, and a data partition. But I have stopped using that third partiton, as I find it doesn't give me a lot advantages and sometimes causes inconveniences.

EDIT: After thinking about it some more, it definitely could be an issue with LibreOffice, or Abiword, or both. I seem to remember that LibreOffice does open some files read-only by default. It may have to do with the document format.

One way to test the LibreOffice/Abiword interaction is to run @mikewalsh's LibreOffice portable in puppy, save the file and try to open it in LibreOffice in Lubuntu.

LibreOffice portable found here: viewtopic.php?t=5635

Mikewalsh portables found here: https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=5104

Files saved by Puppy are probably owned by root.

If the file's permissions are readable by world but not writable by world
then Lubuntu's unprivileged user can read the file but it will be read only.

You can change the ownership or the permissions.

@geo_c - thanks. I was wondering about using LibreOffice on FossaPup. For a beginner, especially one without much general computing knowledge, it is difficult to know about the trade-offs of trying to do something like use LibreOffice on FossaPup. Obviously, Puppy is designed to be "lightweight", which is violated by using Libre instead of Abiword, but then Libre possibly has many other benefits, and I don't know what the performance impact of Libre might be... I wish Puppy had a really extensive FAQ to answer questions like that... sigh... By the way, why did you stop using the 3rd data partition? My understanding is that if you save to the Save File/Save Folder, you can't access what you saved from other OSs. Is that wrong?

@williams2 - thanks. My intuition is that you are on the right path, and I will have to look into how file permissions are created in Puppy. Only, it seems to me that if there were a "read-only" issue due to Puppy being root, this would be an issue that almost every user would run into when they start using Puppy. (Is it?)

Hi @ChrisFH wrote :

. I was wondering about using LibreOffice on FossaPup. For a beginner, especially one without much general computing knowledge, it is difficult to know about the trade-offs of trying to do something like use LibreOffice on FossaPup. Obviously, Puppy is designed to be "lightweight", which is violated by using Libre instead of Abiword, but then Libre possibly has many other benefits, and I don't know what the performance impact of Libre might be...

Regarding LibreOffice .......if you use a LibreOffice.sfs (Sqashfs File) viewtopic.php?t=404 there is no Problem with lightweight or not ....(i) just load it on "Demand".....

My experience with Abiword is somehow problematic with larger Documents ....Format while Printing is sometimes unreliable.
I gave up on Abiword ....but no Problem with smaller Documents.

LibreOffice as Squash File (sfs) does the Job.

backi wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:07 am

Hi @ChrisFH wrote :

. I was wondering about using LibreOffice on FossaPup. For a beginner, especially one without much general computing knowledge, it is difficult to know about the trade-offs of trying to do something like use LibreOffice on FossaPup. Obviously, Puppy is designed to be "lightweight", which is violated by using Libre instead of Abiword, but then Libre possibly has many other benefits, and I don't know what the performance impact of Libre might be...

Regarding LibreOffice .......if you use a LibreOffice.sfs (Sqashfs File) viewtopic.php?t=404 there is no Problem with lightweight or not ....(i) just load it on "Demand".....

My experience with Abiword is somehow problematic with larger Documents ....Format while Printing is sometimes unreliable.
I gave up on Abiword ....but no Problem with smaller Documents.

LibreOffice as Squash File (sfs) does the Job.

I use LibreOffice portable linked in my post above. It's never installed into the system, instead it runs out of it's own folder and temporary puts a small link file pointing to it's folder which can reside somewhere on the same partition, or different partiton, again not installed in the save folder. An sfs is just as effective, which I used up until a couple months ago. The sfs is a squashed file and can be set to load at boot. It also doesn't reside in the save folder.

ChrisFH wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:44 am

@geo_c - thanks. I was wondering about using LibreOffice on FossaPup. For a beginner, especially one without much general computing knowledge, it is difficult to know about the trade-offs of trying to do something like use LibreOffice on FossaPup. Obviously, Puppy is designed to be "lightweight", which is violated by using Libre instead of Abiword, but then Libre possibly has many other benefits, and I don't know what the performance impact of Libre might be...

Puppy is lightweight as an operating system, but that simply leaves more computing power to run heavyweight applications. I've run LibreOffice as an sfs, and now a portable ever since first installing fossapup, and it doesn't have any impact on the performance of puppy. Of course on a low resource machine, opening extremely large documents or doing large multiple operations will vary in terms of performance. But that's true with any operating system or application.

My experience with the sfs version of LibreOffice versus the portable version is that the portable opens much faster. Abiword is okay to have around to open a simple document quickly, but I have never used it for word processing.

I wish Puppy had a really extensive FAQ to answer questions like that... sigh... By the way, why did you stop using the 3rd data partition? My understanding is that if you save to the Save File/Save Folder, you can't access what you saved from other OSs. Is that wrong?

I haven't used a savefile for awhile, I use save folders because they are easy to access. They can be accessed from any OS that can read linux ext partitions. Windows can't see those. I ditched Windows long ago. Windows would be able to see a save folder on a fat32 or ntfs partition, but puppy can't use a save folder on those partitions, it must be a save file in that case.

I ditched the third partition, because I use a lot of data. I do professional audio and video recording/editing using a fossapup remaster called jackalpup and this requires my pup partition to be big enough to handle all the application and data files (outside the save folder) resourced by these applications, so in essence, although I might have a lot of raw 'data' on the third partition, eventually my 'pup system' partition would run of space, because I have so much supporting system data, or multiple savefiles. Plus I'm running multiple puppies, so instead of trying to guess at how big those two partitions need to be, I simply put them all on one.

My 5 laptops all have puppy installed on the internal hard drive, but I recently went out and bought a brand new 500GB usb3.0 stick. It's configured like this:

sdb1 193mb ext4 (grub boot partition)
sdb2 457GB ext4 (5 different puppy OS's and 200GB of audio/video/document data)

If I wanted to use this stick to access data with Windows I would set it up like this:

sdb1 193mb fat32 (grub boot partion)
sdb2 100GB ext4 (puppy OS's and savefolders)
sdb3 398GB fat32 (audio/video/document data)

And I do have other USB drives setup like that currently. Since the first parttion is fat32, Windows is able to see the third fat32 partion. The first partition on the drive has to be fat32 or ntfs for Windows to find the third data partion.

And that setup is okay, but requires one to make partition size choices initially that are a pain to redo later.

The USB hard drive that I have setup to be Windows accessible looks this:

sdc1 100mb vfat (grub boot files)
sdc2 100GB ext4 (puppy OS's and savefolders)
sdc3 1.77TB ext4 (all of my lifelong accumulated personal and professional data)
sdc4 1.77TB vfat (all of my lifelong accumulated personal and professional data synced to sdc3)

I mirror the data on the last two partitions and keep them in sync using rsync regularly, as a backup in case I erase something in my late night delerium, and so I can access it with Windows if needed.

I recently corrupted that large drive, but was able to recover. Made a how-to topic here: viewtopic.php?t=6051

@geo_c - Wow! Thanks for your reply. I had some mistaken ideas about Puppy that you corrected! If I can access Puppy's SaveFolder from Lubuntu, then I have no reason to have a 3rd partition for data. I will experiment with my USB stick. This is great!!

By the way, it might be my imagination, but I think FossaPup boots faster from my USB 3.0 stick than from my USB 2.0 sticks. Do you think so too?

ChrisFH wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:49 am

@geo_c - Wow! Thanks for your reply. I had some mistaken ideas about Puppy that you corrected! If I can access Puppy's SaveFolder from Lubuntu, then I have no reason to have a 3rd partition for data. I will experiment with my USB stick. This is great!!

By the way, it might be my imagination, but I think FossaPup boots faster from my USB 3.0 stick than from my USB 2.0 sticks. Do you think so too?

My USB 3.0 stick is much faster, but it's limited by the USB port, so on a machine with a USB 2.0 port it's not as fast, but still faster than some of my other older USB 2.0 drives.

geo_c wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:23 pm

My USB 3.0 stick is much faster, but it's limited by the USB port, so on a machine with a USB 2.0 port it's not as fast, but still faster than some of my other older USB 2.0 drives.

ChrisFH wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:49 am

By the way, it might be my imagination, but I think FossaPup boots faster from my USB 3.0 stick than from my USB 2.0 sticks. Do you think so too?

I've seen this subject mentioned on various forums, and the general consensus of opinion appears to be this:

If you have a USB 2.0 device and plug it into a USB 3.0 port it will still only perform as a USB 2.0.
But if you have a USB 3.0 device and plug it into a USB 2.0 port it will still be faster than a USB 2.0 device. Not as fast as plugging it into a USB 3.0 port, but faster all the same.

Please don't ask me how or why, because I've no idea. Perhaps one of our resident experts can answer that?