Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

First post! I've tried a few live puppies, and really like it do to the run as root philosophy. But apparently puppy cannot be installed on any computer of the last 10 or 15 years? So I installed MX Linux instead, as a multi-boot along with Windows 10. MX works fine, but I hate that it won't allow me to run programs as root. Plus the boot ups are a trifle slow due to bloat.
So I love it if there was a puppy that could install on modern computers. The fossa pup gave me PAM errors and googling could not resolve it. I tried dpup with xfce, and it was nice live, but would refuse to install on a modern GPT partition.
Then I found buster dog, and quite liked its live set up, but the full install failed. Luckily I could still boot into MX Linux, and its grub2, but it didn't list the puppy. So in terminal I updated the grub, and now it does list the buster dog in the grub2 options! However clicking on it failed to run puppy, and just gave a bunch of errors.
So is puppy destined to die with the last remaining ancient computers? Or will someone save it? Or possibly they're already exist some pup somewhere that works and installs on today's computers?
If such a thing can never be, does anyone know of any other distro that doesn't Force to jail the user in sudo madness, and lets us run free as dogs, that is, run as root!?

Hi Oaktree,

Wiser heads than mine will answer your post more fully, but in the meantime Puppy Linux is not meant for a full install, and it is not needed. A Frugal install will even be better in that it provides more flexibility. Puppy can be easily be frugally installed to modern computers, and there are a variety of methods. You could make a live USB from any puppy linux ISO using RUFUS in Windows, boot the USB into Puppy Linux, and then use stickpup on the Puppy OS to install from an ISO file on a second USB. Stickpup will do a frugal install by default, although it is a simple install on a FAT32 partition which can be limiting.

While waiting for the wiser heads to post, you could read : https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=6953
or maybe even viewtopic.php?t=375

@bigpup can give a good rundown on Puppy Linux on newer computers.

Puppy Linux is very very fast on the most modern machines.

Oaktree wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:49 am

So in terminal I updated the grub, and now it does list the buster dog in the grub2 options! However clicking on it failed to run puppy, and just gave a bunch of errors.

If your grub2 was installed by mx or another distro, it may find your puppy or dog but the boot stanza it generated for your puppy or dog may not be correct in the grub configuration file. can you post the contents of your grub.cfg and describe how you installed puppy?

Thanks for the info. I will post my grub.cfg here when I get to the computer this evening.
I have mixed feelings on frugal installs, but I would be willing to try it, except for one major deal killer: I understand that frugal installs require a USB stick to be attached during boot up, even if the actual OS is on the main drive, or an attached SSD drive. In other words, the boot process continues to start from the USB stick and then is transferred to the OS.
My Dell laptop BIOS does not remember any USB drive, even though I always click to save my settings. Thus, I am forced to configure the BIOS every time I boot from a USB pen drive, which I hate because I have severe eye problems, and the BIOS fonts are difficult to see, requiring several magnifying glasses. I wouldn't mind that, except I have to go through all the settings again, at the very next boot!

Oaktree wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:21 pm

I understand that frugal installs require a USB stick to be attached during boot up, even if the actual OS is on the main drive, or an attached SSD drive. In other words, the boot process continues to start from the USB stick and then is transferred to the OS.
My Dell laptop BIOS does not remember any USB drive.......

Although USB drives are commonly used with puppy as an easyself contained way to "dual boot" , they are not required. Puppies/dogs and Easy can be run from any type single drive that the firmware (BIOS) on the computer can see as bootable. If, for instance, your computer cannot recognize a particular type drive as bootable, there are workarounds to boot from a different drive.

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/install.html

Hallo, @Oaktree .....and to the 'kennels'!

Um....ri-i-ight. O-kayyyy.....

I'm sorta like curious as to where you got the idea from that a 'frugal' Puppy has to have a USB stick attached....?!?

My main rig is a 3-yr old, UEFI-equipped HP Pavilion desktop PC. I'm running approximately a dozen Puppies on this machine, all from a single partition - Puppies will run from individual sub-folders within the same partition, and happily co-exist together - because the UEFI/BIOS has been set to 'Legacy' mode, along with all the Windows-crap of FastBoot/SecureBoot being turned OFF. (There's no need for it, so.....it's history).

You're probably making the same flawed assumption that every other Puppy newbie makes, especially if they're coming to Puppy from other, more traditional Linux distros which mandate a 'full' install on their OWN partition. In addition to that, you're possibly thinking that a 'frugal' install sounds like a more basic, 'cut-down' version of the 'real thing'?

No, no, no, no, no. It's a perfectly understandable assumption to make.....but also completely wrong.

All the term 'frugal' install means, in the case of Puppy, is that the whole install occupies less disk space, due to its running from half-a-dozen or so highly-compressed, read-only files. (This has the advantage that Puppy starts off with a 'squeaky-clean' install every time you boot, too.)

---------------------------------------------

Rather than putting the entire file-system on disk, taking up space, at boot Puppy sets-up a 'virtual' file-system within RAM. The contents of the main Puppy system file are then copied into this. Additional system files/user packages may be added-into this virtual file-system due to the aufs 'layering' file-system Puppy employs.....yet as far as the user is concerned, all you see in the file-manager is a completely normal, standard full file-system. The whole thing is there - nothing missing! - but in reality, it takes up a lot less space on disk than a normal distro.

At shut-down - or in the case of a USB stick, this can be at regular, preset intervals - any differences from the basic install are then saved back to a special file or folder, called the 'save-file'/'save-folder'. This has the great advantage of being the only part of Puppy that you ever need to 'back-up'.....and, believe it or not, all that's needed to back it up is a simple copy/paste operation. No complicated back-up utilities are required. Those compressed, read-only system files aren't going to be compromised in any way, 'cos nothing can write to a read-only file.....and if you're one of those folks who run the whole thing from a CD/DVD (Puppy can save changes back to one of these, too), the whole set-up is essentially bulletproof.

At the next boot, all of these compressed files & saved changes are amalgamated back together within the 'virtual' file-system again......and away you go.

Mike.

Oaktree wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 11:21 pm

Thanks for the info. I will post my grub.cfg here when I get to the computer this evening.
I have mixed feelings on frugal installs, but I would be willing to try it, except for one major deal killer: I understand that frugal installs require a USB stick to be attached during boot up, even if the actual OS is on the main drive, or an attached SSD drive. In other words, the boot process continues to start from the USB stick and then is transferred to the OS.
My Dell laptop BIOS does not remember any USB drive, even though I always click to save my settings. Thus, I am forced to configure the BIOS every time I boot from a USB pen drive, which I hate because I have severe eye problems, and the BIOS fonts are difficult to see, requiring several magnifying glasses. I wouldn't mind that, except I have to go through all the settings again, at the very next boot!

Frugal install doesn't have to start with a USB, it can be solely from the internal drive. The frugal install relates to how the OS is installed on the laptop/PC, not really anything to do with the bootloader. If you have grub/grub2 or any other boot loaders installed on the Dell laptop you can add a boot stanza for the puppy to boot. As you mentioned grub.cfg, you can add a boot stanza, by editing the file /etc/grub.d/40_custom within the existing install. You add the boot stanza for the puppy install to the file and then run update-grub for the existing linux install. This appends the contents to the grub.cfg. You can add many frugal puppy installs this way, simply by adding the puppy files for each install to an individual directory and adding a boot stanza for each install.

This is an example of a 40_custom file, the pdrv=1d9... , is the UUID for sda2.

#!/bin/sh
exec tail -n +3 $0
# This file provides an easy way to add custom menu entries.  Simply type the
# menu entries you want to add after this comment.  Be careful not to change
# the 'exec tail' line above.
menuentry 'Voidpup64 22.02 RC +1 (on /dev/sda2)' {
                
        search --set -f /Void64/vmlinuz         
                
        linux /Void64/vmlinuz pdrv=1d9dee77-ea87-4ef1-9d23-01c5019168a8 psubdir=/Void64 pmedia=ataflash
                
        initrd /Void64/initrd.gz
        } 

Okay this is great news that "Frugal install doesn't have to start with a USB, it can be solely from the internal drive"
I guess where I read that info was on MX Linux, my main distro. So, this is good news.
I will have to study about how to edit grub2 and will likely have some questions or issues coming. Thanks for all the info!

Note I do know what a frugal install is as MX Linux also has it as an option. But I'm a little leery, because I like and browsing and learning from the actual files directly! Also I think it would boot faster if it didn't have to load everything into RAM at boot up!
I am mostly looking for a very fast booting lean system to run virtualbox. And since this system currently only has 8 gigs ram, and a virtualbox OS along with several videos and browser tabs and YouTube etc can eat up ram, so I'd like the host OS to use as little ram as possible, yet still run virtualbox in a very fast way!

One more thing. I of course disabled secure boot, as the first thing I do on any computer. The Dell bios has an option to enable legacy ROMs, but when I chose that it said it could not be enabled because PTT is enabled. But I have no idea what PTT is, and could not find it anywhere in the Dell bios. Will this pose a problem?

okay, here is the code from the grub.cfg.
i have mx linux and windows 10, and then this was generated by update grub for my busterDog, whic was full installed from the live version of busterdog:

menuentry 'Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) (on /dev/sda5)' --class debian --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os $menuentry_id_option 'osprober-gnulinux-simple-2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f' {
	insmod part_gpt
	insmod ext2
	set root='hd0,gpt5'
	if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then
	  search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,gpt5 --hint-efi=hd0,gpt5 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,gpt5  2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f
	else
	  search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root 2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f
	fi
	linux /boot/vmlinuz1 root=/dev/sda5
}
submenu 'Advanced options for Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) (on /dev/sda5)' $menuentry_id_option 'osprober-gnulinux-advanced-2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f' {
	menuentry 'Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) (on /dev/sda5)' --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os $menuentry_id_option 'osprober-gnulinux-/boot/vmlinuz1--2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f' {
		insmod part_gpt
		insmod ext2
		set root='hd0,gpt5'
		if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then
		  search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,gpt5 --hint-efi=hd0,gpt5 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,gpt5  2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f
		else
		  search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root 2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f
		fi
		linux /boot/vmlinuz1 root=/dev/sda5
	}
}

### END /etc/grub.d/30_os-prober ###

I have no idea what PTT is,

PTT is Platform Trust Technology.
It's the software and hardware that work together to make PuppyLinux hard to boot.

PTT is for Intel cpus. fTPM is for AMD cpus.

What Is a TPM?
A TPM can calculate random numbers, RSA keys, decrypt short data, and store hashes taken when booting the device. A TPM incorporates in a single component:
A RSA 2048-bit key generator
A random number generator
Nonvolatile memory for storing EK, SRK, and AIK keys
A cryptographic engine to encrypt, decrypt, and sign
etc etc

Some UEHI don't allow you to disable PPT

PTT is Platform Trust Technology.
It's the software and hardware that work together to make PuppyLinux hard to boot"

I love that comment!
Great news. It's 3:00 a.m. and I just got puppy to boot! I've been researching editing grub2 and did not find any real manual or tutorial for it, but there are lots of forum comments including Stock exchange opinions, and after reading them all I tried a few things combining ideas, and it worked. When I get a chance I will post my edits here, as I'm posting this from my phone.

Oaktree wrote:

i have mx linux and windows 10, and then this was generated by update grub for my busterDog, whic was full installed from the live version of busterdog:

Your menu entry seems to miss a line to point to the initrd, try to add (under "linux /boot/vmlinuz1 root=/dev/sda5") :
initrd /boot/initrd.img
But check first if /boot/initrd.img exists in sda5, if not then that's the problem.

I'm also wondering if it's possible to add a menu item or script to grub2 that would allow me to boot into any bootable USB key drive that is attached, without having to change the BIOS every damn time. Anyone know about this?

Oaktree wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:45 am

I'm also wondering if it's possible to add a menu item or script to grub2 that would allow me to boot into any bootable USB key drive that is attached, without having to change the BIOS every damn time. Anyone know about this?

@Oaktree :-

Puppy's usual Grub4DOS will let you do this from the Advanced Menu, although I think this depends on exactly what was attached at the time Grub4DOS was generated.

Example; I have 2 internal drives, thus sda & sdb. I must have had either a flash drive OR the external HDD I use for backups attached when this bootloader Menu was written, because 'Advanced' gives me the option to boot from either sda, sdb OR sdc. Assuming that all three drives are flagged as 'bootable', and each drive has its own bootloader installed, I believe what this does is to 'chainload' from one to another.

I can't comment on GRUB2. I absolutely loathe and detest the thing; it's hideously over-complex for what it is, and was one of the reasons for my quitting mainstream distros and coming to Puppy nearly 10 years ago.

Mike.

MxLinux's frugal system is not the same as Puppy's. MxLinux was designed to treat RAM and Media as a Unity constantly reading and writing between them. I think it modifies that to create what it calls a Frugal install.

Puppy is designed to treat RAM and Storage as two separate systems, functioning in RAM and only reading and writing to Storage when necessary. [FYI, you can configure a Puppy booted from a USB-Key, to be entirely available even after you unplug the Key. Obviously, you can't unplug an internal hard-drive. But you can configure a Puppy to dismount the partition it booted from. Of course, having done so, you won't be able to preserve any changes].

On a modern computer the difference in boot-up times between a 'Frugal install' and a 'Full Install' of a Puppy is measured in micro-seconds. The last word I had as to how it works is that Puppy's compressed file-systems are copied as such into RAM-Cache, still compressed, were their contained files are then indexed. Booting a Frugal Puppy takes less time than booting Mxlinux.

In Puppys persistence is usually achieved thru the use of a SaveFile or SaveFolder on Storage which is mounted, not copied into RAM. A SaveFile is a Linux Formatted block of space of fixed size on Storage so can be on any medium however formatted. But a SaveFolder --which has to be on a Linux formatted partition-- but is just a folder. It will automatically expand to use the entire available space on its partition if necessary. Employing a SaveFolder you have all the advantages of a Full install plus the advantage that your core system files on Storage are READ-ONLY and can't be corrupted. [User's choice: once your system has everything you want, you can convert the SaveFile/Folder to a READ-ONLY file-system and, as aforesaid, if booted from a USB-Key, unplug the Key].

You can examine the contents of a SaveFolder just by file-browsing into it. You can examine the contents of any SFS, including a SaveFile.sfs, by mounting it.

You'll find an entire Section on the Forum dealing with using Puppy as the Host for VirtualBox and similar applications. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=107. Note these applications are 'kernel-specific': that is they have to be compiled under the kernel from which they are to be used. If you're so inclined, you can compile one to work under any Puppy. Or you can use any Puppy for which such application has already been compiled. Or you can swap the kernel used by your Puppy with that of the Puppy used to compile such application then use that application.

Swapping kernels only takes a couple of minutes: it just involves substituting one vmlinuz for another and changing the name of a zdrv.sfs from that of the Puppy under which the application was compiled to that of your Puppy --e.g. zdrv_slacko64_xxx.sfs to zdrv_fossapup64_xxx.sfs-- then substituting that renamed file for the one your Puppy previously used.

Sometimes you'll have to add an fdrv.sfs similarly renamed to be used by your Puppy. fdrv.sfs holds firmware. Zdrv.sfs holds drivers. Both are needed to communicate with hardware. But while drivers are kernel-specific, firmware is not. Some devs include firmware in a zdrv.sfs. Some don't since once you've obtained an fdrv.sfs it can be used with any Puppy.

Addendum: To report this, I booted into a Fossapup64 I set up so that once booted everything --including the Web-browser I'm using to post this-- is in RAM, i.e. if it were on a USB-Key I could unplug it. FYI, on Storage, this system occupies about 450 Mbs.

This is the use of RAM reported by Menu>System>PupSys-Info before opening the Web-browser:

Cached: 1284 MB
Actual Used RAM: 197 MB

What those figure reveal is that only 197 Mbs of RAM was NOT available for other use. Files in RAM-Cache are swapped into-and-dropped-out of RAM-for-conducting work at the speed of your computer's CPU. With two tabs of the Web-browser and itself open, PupSys-Info reports that currently 685 Mbs of RAM are not available for other activities. Opening a 3rd browser tab 'googled' to graphic images of Cats pushed the non-available RAM to 857. That, however, is the nature of web-browsing: the web-host stores data in Cache on your computer. On a Puppy set up as the foregoing was, that cache is in RAM. If I was using one of MikeWalsh's portable web-browsers from a partition, that cache would have been stored in the web-browser's folder on that partition and not in RAM.

Steps to Disable PTT in the BIOS to Enable TPM Security:

Tap the F2 key when the Dell logo appears to enter the BIOS
Expand the "Security" section, click "PTT Security", and deselect Intel Platform Trust Technology
NOTE: If PTT is greyed out as well, re-enable PTT by disabling Intel Trusted Execution under Virtualization Support.
Click Apply and Exit to reboot
On reboot, tap the F2 key when the Dell logo appears to re-enter the BIOS
Expand the "Security" section, click "TPM Security", and select TPM Security
Click Apply and Exit to reboot into the Operating System

maybe this will work

Hello @Oaktree

Oaktree wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:45 am

I'm also wondering if it's possible to add a menu item or script to grub2 that would allow me to boot into any bootable USB key drive that is attached, without having to change the BIOS every damn time. Anyone know about this?

This is a legitimate question.

GRUB2 has been useful in PUPs for past several years. Works fine.

In Puppyland, it appears that a utility for booting PUP/DOG ISOs via a GRUB2 started with instruction from ISObooter. Next in 2019, PUPs and DOGs began appearing with the ability of other GRUB2 ISO file boot utilities also have come to past. An ISO file boot is a form of Frugal without any of the usual headache associated with past Frugal efforts. PUPs can be booted and used in EXACTLY the same way that ANY frugal use has always been without need for change, adjustment, or coding of any of the PUPs/DOGs on this forum. Thus the utilities make it as easy or as simple as can be. With them you merely download the ISO files to the boot media and boot the PUP/DOG distros to desktop...its that simple.

The 2 other ISO file boot utilities are SuperGRUB2 (SG2D) and Ventoy. All of these utilities have been describe in the forum for several years.

If you have ANY questions on either the utilities and their use, free free to ask: There are a plethora of users here on the forum who are well-versed in GRUB2 use as well as the GRUB2 utilities I have mentioned.

Dont be embarrassed or discouraged in asking for help as many members, myself included, who will help where possible.

Hope this is useful information

Clarity wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:41 am

Hello @Oaktree

Oaktree wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:45 am

I'm also wondering if it's possible to add a menu item or script to grub2 that would allow me to boot into any bootable USB key drive that is attached, without having to change the BIOS every damn time. Anyone know about this?

This is a legitimate question.

GRUB2 has been useful in PUPs for past several years. Works fine.

In Puppyland, it appears that a utility for booting PUP/DOG ISOs via a GRUB2 started with instruction from ISObooter. Next in 2019, PUPs and DOGs began appearing with the ability of other GRUB2 ISO file boot utilities also have come to past. An ISO file boot is a form of Frugal without any of the usual headache associated with past Frugal efforts. PUPs can be booted and used in EXACTLY the same way that ANY frugal use has always been without need for change, adjustment, or coding of any of the PUPs/DOGs on this forum. Thus the utilities make it as easy or as simple as can be. With them you merely download the ISO files to the boot media and boot the PUP/DOG distros to desktop...its that simple.

The 2 other ISO file boot utilities are SuperGRUB2 (SG2D) and Ventoy. All of these utilities have been describe in the forum for several years.

If you have ANY questions on either the utilities and their use, free free to ask: There are a plethora of users here on the forum who are well-versed in GRUB2 use as well as the GRUB2 utilities I have mentioned.

Dont be embarrassed or discouraged in asking for help as many members, myself included, who will help where possible.

Hope this is useful information

Spamming and threadjacking again, eh Clarity? FULL STOP! STAT! This is NOT what Oaktree is asking for, so leave it to others to help out.
Let me repeat myself for the umpteenth time...STOP SPAMMING SG2D AND VENTOY! These might be "OK" in some situations, but has been
told on the forum, not in all cases.
Wiz

boot into any bootable USB key drive that is attached, without having to change the BIOS every damn time. Anyone know about this?

OK, @Wiz57 I have just offered a solution. Would you be willing to have me demonstrate the ability to do so via booting the ISO file(s)?

Peace in your behavior during this full moon cycle we have now in the northern hemisphere.

I was busy at work all week, but here is my code i used to fix grub2, for anyone w similar issues:
First, find the UUID of the partition of the OS you want to boot w terminal command:
$ blkid 
then i edited this: /etc/grub.d/40_custom
by adding these lines:

menuentry "BusterDog(sda5)" {
      search --set=root --fs-uuid 2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f
      linux /boot/vmlinuz1  root=UUID=2feb9251-55ad-437a-b7d3-575ba5e16d1f rw  quiet
      initrd /boot/initrd.img
 }
 

ofcourse you need to adjust for your Uuid, and make sure the kernel entries (in linux /boot/) are the exact match to what is in your os.
then terminal:
update-grub

It was easier than i thought it would be, and worked at first try. Thanks to all for suggestions and info.