Directories? folders? memory? storage? Proper Linux terminology

[cobaka]

G'day all!

In the Linux world, what is the correct use of the words above?
Can I write about folders, and be 'proper' in the world of the penguin?
etc etc. I would like to use these words as others understand them.
Plus ... If there are more words (or conventions) that may have an ambiguous meaning (between Windows and Linux) - please add them here.

Thanks,

cobaka.

[bigpup]

The only ones that are used differently are directories and folders.
But Linux speak is not that unforgiving anymore.
We know if you say folder you really are talking about a directory.
Directory is the Linux name for folder.
Commands in Linux use directory.
So correct name for folder in Linux is directory.

[6502coder]

Linux was inspired by Minix which was inspired by UNIX. We can argue about specific details but the basic commands and hierarchical file system structure of Linux clearly come from UNIX. UNIX has been around since at least 1970 so the term "directory" goes back at least that far.

The first version of MS-DOS did not appear until 1980 or 1981. MS-DOS was derived from 86-DOS which in turn was a clone of CP/M, which only dates back to 1974; moreover the versions of CP/M up through CP/M 2.2 did not have sub-directories at all, so MS-DOS clearly cannot trace its use of "folder" back through CP/M any further than the mid-70's, if at all.

In short, while I am not an expert on the history of computing, it seems quite clear that "directory" is an older term than "folder," and that it was Microsoft who departed from the established UNIX convention, not the other way around.

By the same token "/" is older than "\" as a separator in pathnames, and again it was Microsoft who departed from the established UNIX convention, not the other way around.

[p310don]

Only working from my own memory (not RAM, the grey stuff in my head) the term Folder came about with Win95, along with the folder icon. Before that, I'm sure DOS 6.22 used the term directory.

Either way, unless you come across and un-friendly, die-hard linux / unix stickler, everyone knows what you mean.

Memory and storage are two different things. Memory being RAM, storage being hard drive (or SSD) space. That is the same across all computers AFAIK. The distinction seems to get blurred with mobile phone advertising I've noticed. They're still technically the same thing in phones, but the marketers in that industry seem to get confused.

[wiak]

In short, while I am not an expert on the history of computing, it seems quite clear that "directory" is an older term than "folder," and that it was Microsoft who departed from the established UNIX convention, not the other way around./quote]

Though it could be argued that "directory" was a poor choice of word from a User interface perspective - makes me think of a telephone directory, whereas "folder" in general office work situation would be a place to store files in.

But very painful the directory separator used by Microsoft \ is the same as the UNIX long established "line continuation marker", or, as a backslash escape character.

wiak

[bigpup]

Let us really add some confusion.

Everyplace in Puppy Linux the name directory is used.

Except a save directory is called a save folder.

I kind of think of it this way.
The directory is the filesystem name.
Folder is the image used (icon) to visually show a directory.
Example:
In a file manager, directories are visually shown as folders.

[rockedge]

back in the 70's I first learned to program and sys-op on a PDP-11/70 which ran the operating system RSTS/E from Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC). Every thing was either a "file" or a "directory". A "folder" was a physical thing where you kept papers.

First time I heard directories called folders was from Apple and then Microsoft. Which I classified as machinery for the average guy and not for the High Priest Sys-Op's and the true world of computing..the Mainframe.

[6502coder]

Though it could be argued that "directory" was a poor choice of word from a User interface perspective - makes me think of a telephone directory, whereas "folder" in general office work situation would be a place to store files in.
wiak

Yes, from a UI perspective it is perhaps not a great choice. However, it makes perfect sense: a UNIX directory was essentially an ordinary file that contained the names of files and their locations, so it really was much like a telephone directory. You could do a hex dump of a directory file using the "od" command and see the names of the files and their i-node numbers. (Linux directories however are not ordinary files, and cannot be read directly this way.)

[bigpup]

Here is something to consider.

Looking at the properties of the downloads directory. Notice what it shows under Type:
.

Screenshot(4).jpg (27.17 KiB) Viewed 487 times

[cobaka]

@rockedge
Digital? PDP-11? Oh, I remember Digital! Didn't Ken Thompson develop Unix on a PDP-7?
I remember my first program on a 'batch machine' running IBM punched cards.
And Fortran? Remember that? Students handed in a pack of punched cards held together by two rubber-bands.

After that I wrote Pascal (remember Pascal?) using a teleprinter and a line oriented editor.
That used a lot of paper! I wasn't a good programmer, but I loved the structure of this language.
But, in the end, the demands of enforced data-types became a constraint, not an advantage.
Not every type of precision is good!

Anyway, I started this thread because some helpful person on the Murga forum corrected my 'language'.
I decided improve my use of language (no more bad language!) and this posting is the result. (Thanks to whoever ...)

In the late 70s I used an 8-bit machine by Processor Technology, running PTDOS operating system.
The entire OS ran in 12k bytes (not words) of memory; this included 4k of system managed buffer.
The 8 inch floppy disk was firm-sectored, ie the sector size was variable.
The largest sector size for a file was 4k (one full track). The smallest: 128 bytes. That meant very effective use of disk-space.
I remember writing a device driver that was a little short of 256 bytes. This was for a character oriented printer.
The OS knew only files: A directory was a file. The keyboard and monitor screen were files.
(I wonder where that idea came from? Hmmm?)

The system had a null file, an error file and a log (verbose) file that would record the history of every command issued to the command-line interpreter. None of this is remarkable now; but all this was done in 8k bytes of object code.

There were elegant commands for managing a project.
It was possible to back-up every file associated with a project using a command: "save".

>SAVE O=file{,/u} {,T=type}{strings}{S={-L}{-I}}

The 'string' allowed a comma-separated regex-type list of names; if a project contained source, image code and documentation files an entire project could be backed up to a single floppy using this single command. (Remember floppy disks? 8 inch disks? Really?)
That comment might be a batch file with a short name. Thus:
>SETIN bakup (or similar). This allowed error-free work to be done quickly.

The point of all this? The precise use of language/definition can save a lot of time in the big bad world of software. I'm not a precise person myself, but I do like precision.

Still - much as I dislike Windows, I don't mind the substitution of 'folder' for 'directory'.

But I have now started on a peripheral topic, so I'll finish.

СОБАКА

[hundido]

I'm trying to understand this topic for this reason:

I'd like to move some files from my downloads file to a new storage partition. I'd like to organize them.

In the file system, in order to make organization on sda2, the new partition, if I click the "+" icon, it gives me the options to:

Left click for a New Directory
Right click for a New File

I'd like to make two upper level organizations, "operating systems", and "puppy stuff" or maybe "programs", where I can store and unpack things from my Downloads folder to use with as many puppy USBs as I collect.

Should I left or right click to make "operating systems" and "puppy stuff/programs"?

Using Slacko64-8.2.1. Thank you, smart, helpful puppy people.

[hundido]

I think I figured it out:

Right clicking the + makes a new "directory", which I think is called a "folder" in all the other linux systems I've used so far.

Left clicking makes a new "file", which will be a text file in Geany, at least if you do this in the dowloads directory in Slacko64-8.2.1

[williwaw]

I see a + in the title bar here viewtopic.php?p=27067#p27067

you seem to be using slacko64 8.2.1. fwiw, 8.1 is in development with bugs and new features?

afaik, slacko64-7 is the "stable" release
http://01micko.com/20-Slacko-7-FINALLY
https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/p ... ko-7.0/64/

[hundido]

I meant the "+" in the file system-I don't know the name of the file system. ROX? is that its name?
When I hover over it with the mouse, it says:

Left: New Directory
Center: New Blank File
Right: Menu

screenshot.png (150.58 KiB) Viewed 568 times

[williwaw]

yes, rox filer, your file manager. looks like a newer menu icon available in both fossa and slacko
rox is umm different but it standard with most puppies. it actually has some nice features.

there are many other file managers available in the package manager if you are more comfortable with a different style for some things.

http://rox.sourceforge.net/Manual/Manual/Manual.html

[puppy_apprentice]

In my Amiga times there were directories in Amiga Shell (console) and drawers in Workbench (desktop).

[hundido]

@williwaw Slacko64-8.2.1 is still the only puppy I can get to run redshift. I'm still working through viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3227