Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Hello!
I'm math teacher in a rural school. There are no computers in my math class at all. I want to use digital technologies in the educational process. To do this, I found several old system units, monoblocks and laptops. Their approximate configuration is the same: 2005-2007 year release, 2-core CPU +/- 1.5 MHz, 2-4 GB of RAM, small SSD drives. As you can see, this is not such potato old configuration.
I tried 64-bit Puppy Bionic on these machines and found that when using a memory less or equal 4 Gigabytes, it is reasonable to use a 32-bit version of the system because of more fast work. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now I want to try modern JammyPup 32 bit (I'm tired of looking for missing dependencies in unsupported repositories in antique Puppys). But I'm not sure that this will be the optimal solution for such old machines.
Puppy is convenient to me because I can run it entirely in RAM to improve performance. I also run in pupmode=13, this helps me to prevent stdents fro, unauthorized changes.
For learning, first of all, I need the Internet browser, including watching YouTube's analogs. We use Vivaldi and Palemoon, but then not so fast as browsing Internet in Windows 7, the same long loading of program and sites.
By the way! Obviously, Windows XP is already useless for learning. Should I try Windows 8 or 10 instead of 7 to show students an alternative to Linux? Will these systems work faster or I will get only slowdowns and suffering?
I need these programs to teach students: any file manager, any browser, Office packet, Logo language, bitmap and vector painters, any simple video editor, any simple site constructor, Geogebra.
So I use the lightest as I mean: Double Commander, PaleMoon and Vivaldi (in SFS in situations where PaleMoon can't open site correctly), <Abiword/Gnumeric/Presentations from FreeOffice and Kexi>, GImageReader on Tesseract, KTurtle with millions of dependencies (no alternatives), Dia in Wine (because I can't run Dia in Linux), standard mtPaint and Inkscape, OpenShot (it doesn't run from SFS), Kompozer (in SFS) and Geogebra (in SFS) (no alternatives).
But all these programs pull a lot of libraries and dependencies with them, including numerous variations of gtk, qt4, qt5 etc. And it seems that this set is not the best and loads the system in the background heavily. The initial lightness from first frugal setup Puppy disappears.
Please advise what is the best way to replace this programs we use for studying with another more light programs without large number of dependencies.
Maybe I should replace <Abiword/Gnumeric/Presentations from FreeOffice and Kexi> with LibreOffice? I'm afraid that the latest version will slow down even more than this set.
Please advise me: which system, which programs and which versions of them would be optimal for solving this problem. Thank you!

@Zedward :-

For those machines, I wouldn't put Windows anywhere near them.

Windows 7 was already needing *minimum* 4GB / *recommended* 8 GB RAM to run smoothly.....and later versions just got heavier. You'll not get acceptable performance out of that hardware running the Redmond beast.

The trouble is, although Linux - especially Puppy - IS a lot lighter and less resource-demanding than Windows, modern Puppies are now quite a bit 'heavier' than their older counterparts. This is mainly down to the OSs they're built from, and the greater range of stuff that's built-in.

What IS "KTurtle"? Any KDE Project software will always need a million and one dependencies if run as a standalone item, because KDE is designed around QT and the Plasma desktop/Dolphin filemanager combo.....and KDE software expects to find all this built-in.

We'll try and help if we can. Others will be along soon. I'm hardly the best person to give this kind of advice these days, because I've got so much RAM and storage capacity I hardly know what to do with it!

I'm no longer a "traditional" Puppy-user, I'm afraid. But I can't think of anything I would rather use....

Mike.

@Zedward to the forums.
The latest Vanilla Dpup should be on your list. This distro will run well on your gear and uses the Debian upstream repos and the APT package manager. Opens a lot of doors this one does.

I also would recommend trying VoidPup64 or VoidPup32. They are based on Void Linux and uses those upstream repos and the XBPS package manager. As far as I have tested anything that runs on Void Linux will run on a VoidPup. This distro should also run well on the hardware you have.

Have you tried out a DebianDog or KLV-Airedale distro on any of these systems?? With these I believe it is possible to run on the machines you have available with 64 bit versions and still get better than acceptable performance.

DebianDog uses the Debian upstream repos and package manager. Anything that runs on Debian runs on a DebianDog.
KLV-Airedale is based on Void Linux and uses those upstream repos and the XBPS package manager. As far as I have tested anything that runs on Void Linux will run on KLV.

rockedge wrote: ↑Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:01 pm

@Zedward to the forums.

Have you tried out a DebianDog or KLV-Airedale distro on any of these systems?? With these I believe it is possible to run on the machines you have available with 64 bit versions and still get better than acceptable performance.

DebianDog uses the Debian upstream repos and package manager. Anything that runs on Debian runs on a DebianDog.
KLV-Airedale is based on Void Linux and uses those upstream repos and the XBPS package manager. As far as I have tested anything that runs on Void Linux will run on KLV.

@rockedge would know. I have been using KLV beta for a couple months, and it's fast, and light, usually occupying about 500-600MB of Ram. My fossapup installs usually occupy about 800MB of RAM.

When it comes to browsers and video editors, I would go with @mikewalsh's portables. He has all the main browsers, and a few video editors including Openshot. I can't find the forum topic that lists all of Mike's portable offerings, it might be a good idea to pin that somewhere obvious.

For file managers that are lightweight and stick to the basics, I would actually recommend Xfe. It uses a lot of the same keystroke bindings that you find in Midnight Commander, yet is also right-click friendly and very stable on every system I ever ran it. Of course KLV-airedale has Thunar built in, which is a lot more of a modern file manager.

I haven't used the whole selection of puppy distributions, but it would seem like Vanillapup might be a good option as it is small and modern at the same time.

The use of portables I think would limit the amount of libraries that need to be installed.

2nd MikeWalsh's recommendation not to use Windows. Windows 7 --IMHO the best OS Microsoft ever made is no longer supported. It will soon kill Windows 10 to push Windows 11. And Windows 10 is (a) a RAM hog and (b) constantly updating.

2nd rockedge's recommendation for Vanilla dpup32. I setup the 64 version and am pleased with it. Whatever 32-bit applications are available you'll likely find them on debian's repositories, or constructed by independents to run under debian. Vanilla-dpup's include PPM and both apt and synaptic package managers.

I don't think --guessing-- Void's 32-bit repository will be as extensive.

MikeWalsh has recently packaged a 32-bit wine-portable using Wine version 4.0.4, link here, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 191#p68191. It should enable you to run many Windows 32-bit programs under VanilllaDpup. You can search WineHq's database, https://appdb.winehq.org/ --AppDB from top Menu-- for particulars, keeping in mind that portable Windows programs are not tested butoften run even if 'install-ables' don't.

A 'debian-dog' is an alternative. It's 'true-debian' system and may avoid having to hunt missing dependencies under VanillaDpup. On the other hand, you already know how Puppys work while the 'debian-dogs' handle some things differently. I'm not sure if they can handle AppImages or portable built for Puppys. If not, Wine would have to be installed. Worth a look, though.

Also 2nd geo_c's recommendation of xfe file-manager.

This is the list of all Mike Walsh portables as of Feb 01, 2022 geo_c mentioned, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=5104 .

FWIW, following is a screenshot of the 32-bit portables and AppImages I've accumulated. Can't say if they will all still work under whatever OS you decide on.

I would stick with 32-bit Puppy on those machines. Since much older Puppys can run an up to date browser like Palemoon, an upgraded old Puppy based on Precise for example will work great and very fast on those machines. I recently released Precise Extra that you may want to have a look at. And you don't need the latest and biggest WINE to run Windows software, version 3.3 is good enough. I'm not going to slap down Windows like others do. I still have Windows XP Pro as dual-boot on my old machine (need it for printing and scanning, there are no Linux drivers for my model). Windows XP runs great on old machines. There is an up to date version of Palemoon available for Windows XP, it's called MyPal.

I found only links to sfs. Can you share with me with ISO of Precise Extra? Or I should install usual Precise before?

amethyst wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:38 am

I recently released Precise Extra that you may want to have a look at

I found only links to sfs. Can you share with me with ISO of Precise Extra? Or I should install usual Precise before?

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:57 pm

amethyst wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:38 am

I recently released Precise Extra that you may want to have a look at

I found only links to sfs. Can you share with me with ISO of Precise Extra? Or I should install usual Precise before?

There's no iso, I just packaged the Puppy files in a zip file. viewtopic.php?p=67697#p67697

What should I do with this files to install Puppy Precise frugal install on my disk?

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:05 pm

What should I do with this files to install Puppy Precise frugal install on my disk?

What bootloader are you using?

Grub for Dos

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:09 pm

Grub for Dos

Okay, attach a copy of your menu.lst file here.

file

I've made an entry for Precise Extra in menu.lst. Now create a folder called PreciseExtra on your usb drive and copy the Precise Extra files to it (remember to add the kernel, ie. vmlinuz and the zdrv and to rename the zdrv correctly). Reboot and select Precise Extra. You can either download the newest Palemoon browser here: https://download.opensuse.org/repositor ... 2_i386.deb or use mikewalsh's portable here: https://mega.nz/folder/OeYkyahK#6bn1dGeQ5utf99JxNbJxpg

amethyst wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:36 pm

rename the zdrv correctly

I have trouble with it.
I installed Puppy Precies 5.7.1 and Grub4Dos, and found no zdrv-file in frugal folder! O.o

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:16 pm

amethyst wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:36 pm

rename the zdrv correctly

I have trouble with it.
I installed Puppy Precies 5.7.1 and Grub4Dos, and found no zdrv-file in frugal folder! O.o

Why did you install Precise 5.7.1 and grub4dos (the Precise Extra files replace the original Precise 5.7.1 and you already have grub4dos installed, you just need an extra entry in menu.lst which I have done for you)? But now you have probably messed things up by installing grub4dos again so copy the Precise Extra Files to the created folder as mentioned and then run Grub4dos bootloader config again from menu. Read the Precise Extra topic in the first link I gave.

I read the theme. What name should i give to zdrv file?
I downloaded kernel 5.4.158 from https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 893#p53867
and I need to give correct name to zdrv.
For examle, in BionicPup it names zdrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs
What name is needed to PreciseExtra?
Thank you!

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 6:44 pm

I read the theme. What name should i give to zdrv file?
I downloaded kernel 5.4.158 from https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 893#p53867
and I need to give correct name to zdrv.
For examle, in BionicPup it names zdrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs
What name is needed to PreciseExtra?
Thank you!

The same as the other drives, ie. zdrv_precise_extra.sfs

I run Precise Extra. But now I can't connect network and have no sound (it writes, that no modules loaded).
I run system in Virtual Machines and all Puppies recognized network and audio. What should I type in module's name? Can I auto plug them?

Zedward wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:20 pm

I run Precise Extra. But now I can't connect network and have no sound (it writes, that no modules loaded).
I run system in Virtual Machines and all Puppies recognized network and audio. What should I type in module's name? Can I auto plug them?

Try to edit the adrv with an sfs editor by deleting the /etc and the /var folders, re-package it and reboot.

I repacked sfs, but still
Status: Currently there is no Internet connection

This could lead to lots of guess work which I do not really have time for. I suggest the following easier options:
1. Download and try the original Precise 5.7.1 with mikewalsh's portable Palemoon browser.
2. Try DPupStretch 7.5 with mikewalsh's portable Palemoon browser. This Puppy is known to do well with older hardware and is also a newer Puppy.

Zedward
The puppy can handle multiple save files. The programs should be split into a few save files.
Use rox file manager to duplicate the puppy save files set to basic things under a different name ( right mouse button -duplicate). Then start them and upload them with programs.
At boot time you can choose which save file to start puppy with.
For example:
(0- start without save file)
1 upupbbsave-math.3fs
2 upupbbsave-informatics.3fs
3 upupbbsave-game.3fs
4 upupbbsave-video.3fs

An FYI, 32-bit is mostly dead in the Linux ecosystem. You generally do not want to use 32-bit unless you're limited by the cpu. If you need a bit of swap (when memory is not enough) but don't want to kill off the SSDs/eat up more space, modprobe zram && echo 512M > /sys/block/zram0/disksize && echo 512M > /sys/block/zram0/mem_limit && mkswap /dev/zram0 && swapon /dev/zram0 &. You may place this into /etc/init.d and name it zram.sh and chmod +x. Or append it to /etc/rc.d/rc.local
For software I can suggest gnuplot and Qalculate (Very good Swiss Army Knife). And to avoid painstaking outdated packages, use a variant of puppy that has upstream distribution support still. For example, Ubuntu Bionic LTS.
Graphing can also be accomplished via online website Desmos.

I have a 4GB notebook. This is enough to comfortably fit firefox and some other applications for a few hours, although requires the occasional restart because its filling up memory too much. Palemoon doesn't suffer from the same problem but its 'slow' on things like youtube.

My two cents....

I'm currently running FossaPup 64 on a 2012 MacBook Air with 4GB RAM. My computers typically have had 4GB RAM at most and worked well -- using WINE, LibreOffice, and PaleMoon. (I am not a gamer!!) I found AbiWord glitchy, but if it works for you, I'd set it to automatically save in .DOCX format and keep using it. I needed the stability of LO and it's various other features (presentations, draw, etc.) LibreOffice has Math functions, but my math teachers say it's not the same as MS-Word has (It lacks "functions," as I recall---???)

You could try the 32-bit version of FossaPup if you like. There are also serveral "stripped-down" versions of Puppy -- I listed them here answering another user's topic. I've NOT tried them out, you'll have to do that.

I also LOVE XenialPup -- available in 32- or 64-bit versions.

Once you've settled on a puppy version to try out, I'd recommend you FIRST check what applications are running at startup. Go to your ~/startup folder and move any unnecessary apps to the "disabled" sub-folder, then you can easily restore them if needed. Disable compositing to reduce CPU drain, conky as well. Go to MENU>SETUP>STARTUP CONTROL to disable other apps not needed to run on startup. You can try removing these things BEFORE you start customizing your installation; then poweroff and save, then restart Puppy to see if there are any issues you created. If not, continue to add applications and otherwise customize. If there ARE issues, start over again -- you've lost much less time and effort by doing this part first rather than getting all your applications installed and prettied up and then afterward playing with startup apps. Also, make sure to udpate your puppy if available (MENU>QUICKPET FOSSA [or other version]>FOSSAPUP UPDATES [or xenial updates or whatever]. The same with PPM -- update repos first.

When you have been customizing for awhile -- BACKUP YOUR PUPPY! (MENU>UTILIY>PUPSAVE BACKUP -- if that program isn't there, manually save and then backup your pupsave file.) I cannot stress enough to backup your pupsave file -- then when a glitch occurs, you can revert to the latest saved version.

It's also a relly good idea, once things start taking shape -- apps installed, appearance, etc. -- to take note on any changes you make. When something stops working, you can undo your latest changes to see if that clears up the problem. Of course, if you back up often enough, you can revert to your backup.

I'd recommended MikeWalsh 's portable Brave browser. Pale Moon works great for me but Brave goes places that only Chromium-based browser can go. Read the included MenuReadMe file to easily get a menu entry.

I'd use SFS files instead of PET packages whenever possible. Also, if your HDD space is limited, remove anything you don't use. Once you get everything right, remaster your Puppy to install on multiple PCs. (I once ran a computer class using PCs with no HDDs by utilizing several copies of my own remastered Puppy CD.)

You may also NOT want the latest versions of pet packages and SFSs....you can try packages from previous iterations of puppy at "the bomb" site for PETS and SFSs at https://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/

Remember the comment by Amethyst about using wine 3.3. Also, make a 4GB swap space on your drive before installing Puppy or any other linux distro.

Keep us posted how it goes!

One more thought. You may know this already, but in case you don't, remember that the number of applications that are bundled with Puppy (r any distro) do not affect your computer's performance unless those programs are actually running. You shouldn't need a slimmed-down version unless you are short on drive space. If you aren't using extraneous programs, they won't use any CPU or memory; just be sure nothing you don't need is automatically started at boot up, as mentioned in the previous post.