Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

I'm just playing around with a new clean frugal of Fossapup64, first problem noticed is choosing from menu Desktop -- JWMDesk -GTK Theme - Icon Theme - Rox and re-starting graphic manager doesn't work, the original theme remains.

Also I don't like any of the (only) three GTK (widget) low contrast themes colors -- hard to read on this computer. But the color tab doesn't allow me to change colors -- it's all grayed out. Is that intentional?

First you need to make sure you have done the updates to Fossapup64 9.5

Quickpet -> Info -> Fossapup updates

Reboot updating the save, so changes are now being used.

This has a few JWM fixes in the update.

I did JWMDesk -GTK Theme - Icon Theme - Rox - select apply - back at JWMdesk - select apply and re-starting graphic manager.
GTK window icons changed for me to Rox icon set.
you do understand these are the icons seen in a program window which is a GTK window.

Fossapup64 comes with very few icon sets to select.
That Rox one does not really seem to be a complete set of icons.

Really need to add some GTK icon sets from the forum Additional Software->Eye Candy
More selections on the old forum
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewfor ... 8cb8bbc59a

All kinds of themes and icon sets available on different repositories found on the internet.

You might try upgrading to JWMDesk-3.5.4, viewtopic.php?t=3561.

vtpup wrote: ↑Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:00 pm

Rox and re-starting graphic manager doesn't work, the original theme remains.

Also I don't like any of the (only) three GTK (widget) low contrast themes colors -- hard to read on this computer. But the color tab doesn't allow me to change colors -- it's all grayed out. Is that intentional?

A couple of things here, one is that Rox has it's own color scheme and icon choice. So right clicking in Rox will give you a menu choice: Options, in options is a choice: Types. In the Types window is a Themes category with a drop down entry to choose Icon theme.

Also under Types is the subcategory Colours, which are choices for all the text colors for various filetypes. Rox windows use the JWM window titles and borders, and the background color of your Chosen GTK theme. But it doesn't switch GTK without restarting X.

If you're starting from a clean boot with no save, you have to shutdown and create a pupsave for these options to stick as @bigpup noted.

I have combed https://www.gnome-look.org/browse?cat=135&ord=latest and downloaded 20 or so themes, and they all work. To install simply unpack them and copy the folders to /usr/share/themes. They will appear in the JWMdesk gtk theme chooser.

And the final thing is to dowload the latest JWMdesk pet from: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=3561

If you'd like to create your own JWM theme then download the JWM theme maker pet from: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... php?t=3561 It has a bit of a learning curve to get it right, but it works well. I have created many matching JWM/GTK high contrast themes that I use most of the time, but I get bored and switch them up. Once a JWM theme is created using the creation tool, it can be accessed from JWMthemes in JWMdesk, by clicking the icon next to color bar in the JWM Theme Color window. I have not had much success using the other color settings on that dialog. But ymmv.

But the color tab doesn't allow me to change colors -- it's all grayed out. Is that intentional?

Kind of intentional.
Not an option when using JWM for the window manager.
You have to be using, I believe, the LXDE window manager, for this option to work.
It needs LxSession, which is used in LXDE.

during development of Fossapup64, I seem to remember Queckpet offering several window managers, you could select to use.
I think LXDE was one of the selections.
The final release of Fossapup64 took that out of Quickpet.

bigpup wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:38 pm

First you need to make sure you have done the updates to Fossapup64 9.

Yes BP, already tested that way, also pfix=ram, and then saving. No changes when selecting Rox icon set, either before of after, saving session.

Are you sure you yourself tested on a clean updated frugal install or updated pfix=ram?

Thanks Mikeslr. Will try later. Right now just pointing out functions that I happen to come across that don't work out of the box, and are not corrected so far in the Fossapup quickpet update.

Thanks kindly geo_c, very informative, and the below WAS the key to changing the icons to "Default" from the already selected "PMaterial" :

A couple of things here, one is that Rox has it's own color scheme and icon choice. So right clicking in Rox will give you a menu choice: Options, in options is a choice: Types. In the Types window is a Themes category with a drop down entry to choose Icon theme.

I will try the updated JWMDesk to see if the confusion that the Fossapup shipped version of JWMDesk causes is somehow clarified. I don't mean this in any kind of critical way, it's just an unfortunate fact that when a new user (or even an experienced one like me) tries to change icons or colors using the options provided, and can't, the impression is, I don't even want to continue with (or upgrade) to this OS because as a start, the offered basic graphic choices don't work.

As a purely personal preference (and I realize maybe most don't share it) I look for continuity on my computer. That's because I do all my work on it daily. I don't want new non-representative symbol icons, new window appearance, new scrollbar functions, new pale or low contrast colors, thinner scrollbars, missing buttons, smaller tools, added animations like tool visibility only when cursor over, etc.

I don't want to have to learn altered GUI functionality because it's frustrating to discover something doesn't work as expected, and just wastes time for no real gain in my own productivity. Y

For me a "Classic Puppy" GUI would be perfect across all puppy version upgrades. It would look like the 4.xx thru Racy series ie. BK's original Win98ish GUI. If I could just hit a single button to get there, I wouldn't mind all the more "modern" GUI version changes. Because it would be simple to restore to base -- or what I consider base. I could just go on working in the new Puppy version, as I had in the last puppy version.

Transparency, continuity, productivity. I value those much more than optional eye candy. I guess because It's what I make with my computer that's important, not what it itself is as an aesthetic object. I want a tool, that I can reach for, and I know how it works. Sure I like putting a background in the desktop from one of my photos, but that's all I need other than what Puppy provided as an interface ten years ago.

What is hard now, is there is no single button to restore a classic GUI. There's settings in GTK, settings in Rox, settings in JWM, different versions of JWMDesk to be downloaded, searches to be made for themes (jwm, gtk,rox, icons), colors to be changed, tool actions to be changed. And for all those, the forum to be queried.

So, thanks for the really helpful information, all. I am glad our forum resource is still here. I just wish it didn't take so much trial and error, research and additional work to maintain a consistent available baseline GUI format across versions.

Sorry about the misdirection of my previous post. Calk it up to writing before I've had a 2nd cup of coffee.

What I actually intended to suggest was radky's new JWMdesk theme manager. Screenshot here, viewtopic.php?p=62390#p62390. It comes with about a dozen gtk themes. However, AFAIK, the gtk themes geo_c mentioned [thanks, geo_c; link from his post above] can also be used under it. Or maybe I already install them.

Edit: Nope. I was accidentally right in the first place. JWM theme Manager handles icon and jwm themes. JWMDesk handles gtk themes, including those you download and deploy from the source geo_c mentioned and explained how to use.

The success of our species results from 'specialization & co-operation'. Puppy Linux is a corollary. 666philb publishes great operating systems. But don't demand that he also spend his time developing 'bells & whistles' for it. radky publishes 'bells & whistles' which, AFAIK, can be added to every Puppy. Once you're accustomed to them you don't have to learn anything new to use them under a different Puppy.

Thanks Mike.

No "demands" here. Just giving honest user impressions. I hope they are useful. Certainly, Ignore, if not.

vtpup wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 8:00 pm

Thanks Mike.

No "demands" here. Just giving honest user impressions. I hope they are useful. Certainly, Ignore, if not.

I think that modern puppies still using JWM have the added complication of having to change two theme elements, JWM, gtk2/3, and then ROX added into the mix, so really it's three.

If you really would like an easier theme configuration, then maybe one of the pups with an XFCE desktop would be better, especially if they have a different file manager built in. I've thought about this issue a lot, to the extent of posting topics here about script based theme switching, which I was able to make work pretty well, but in the end I realized a few things.

The first thing I realized is gtk themes are an easy switch using the provided switcher in JWMdesk. Also that JWM themes can be created and saved to match the gtk themes I prefer. Which actually gives me more control of the look. ROX is a little more difficult, but not once you know what to do and when to do it, then it's not a big problem. I actually use a custom ROX icon theme that I created by right clicking on file types and setting the icons for all files of that type. It took a lot of work, but I've never touched them since. ROX options are set in a config file and can be copied with a name like Options-MyFavorite, and then after experimenting with the preferences from that point forward, this file can be copied back to restore your previous color/icon scheme.

The second thing I realized is Rox isn't the only application that doesn't switch themes automatically, XFE is the same, and that's because they have their own customizable color/icon configs. So in those kinds of applications you can get certain elements of the universal theme, but your internal theme elements might not match.

The link I gave you is a link to gtk3/4 themes, that mostly all work on fossapup. As fossapup is my daily driver, I will soon put together a package of maybe 10 or 15 of those themes. I store those themes outside the pupsave and simply link their directories to usr/share/themes, and they become 100% available to the system, without bloating the system. I also do the same with icon sets. It's a very easy 'install' because it's not really installed. Same goes for JWM themes, though they are not very big in size, just a couple of text files a piece. The reason I symlink is more than just size. Whatever changes I make that I like, can be accessed by my other pups on other machines, or different pupsaves on the same machine.

So as you say, the aesthetic is not really your focus. In that case if you find one gtk look that you like, and link me to it, I can make a matching JWM and Rox theme, and then you can add those to your system. They would all have the same name, and you would just need to switch the three to your choice, and maybe never have to think about it again.

Y'know, this mostly boils down to one thing.

Most Linux distros use a ready-built Desktop Environment, where all the various different elements have already been developed to work together.

Puppy, on the other hand, creates its own DE by the expedient of providing most of the required elements as separate utilities. It's largely down to the user if they want to customize in any way drastically different to that which is provided OOTB. Some of us enjoy the opportunities for endless 'tweaking' that this approach affords.....and others are simply not interested, wishing to swap what they DO want with minimum effort.

I'm lucky to have found a GTK2 theme on the Gnome website which works across not only different builds of Puppy, but different generations of Puppy.....all the way from 32-bit Slacko 560 up to Fossapup64 9.5, I have a consistent "look" that I'm happy with.

Mike.

Mike, does a using GT2 theme work in Fossapup across apps like say a recent Seamonkey 2.53.xx (I know you don't particularly like Seamonkey, but just askin)?

geo_c very kind of you -- I'll look into it.

This whole thing kinda gets me interested in the idea of a script to use for maintaining settings/Gui choices in an upgrade. I would have to understand how GTK(s) JWM and Rox mesh together better than I do- - I still find it confusing. And especially since apps like current seamonkey and Libre-office seem to require latest GTK no matter what.

vtpup wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 10:07 pm

geo_c very kind of you -- I'll look into it.

This whole thing kinda gets me interested in the idea of a script to use for maintaining settings/Gui choices in an upgrade. I would have to understand how GTK(s) JWM and Rox mesh together better than I do- - I still find it confusing. And especially since apps like current seamonkey and Libre-office seem to require latest GTK no matter what.

Yes, that's the reason I believe the puppy developers create tools to handle the new gtk's, while maintaining the snappy lean JWM/ROX environment. GTK, like the chromium browsers will simply continue to move forward, and many applications will be built for them and won't be backward compatible.

I have found a way to make a GTK/JWM/ROX switch using a script. But I'm not a coder, so my implementation is crude, not exactly elegant. If you're running in ram and want to experiment, you can check out this thread: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=5085 and then take a look at my scripts to see how I approached it.

There are a set of files that have to be in place for the themes to switch, and I simply backup the existing ones, and overwrite them with my themes. I'm sure that is not the most effective way to approach it, though it does work. Since I was using exclusively dark/high-contrast themes, I also switched out the ROX-mime icons.

At any rate, that thread and those scripts might shed some light on how it all fits together. I'll re-visit them, and then post again.

Thank you again, geo_c.

To clarify for myself, as well as anyone else, exactly what I'm talking about, I went through older JWMDesk in Bionic, again to set up a traditional Puppy theme of the type I use. This would help in any attempt to create a script. They are:

Conky = off
Toolbar = autohide
thumbnails = off
GTK theme = old "Default"
Icon Theme = "Blue Moon"
Font = Sans 12
JWM theme = "Original"
Desk Icons = "Traditional"
Drive Icons = "Traditional"

Problems:

In Fossapup the former GTK "Default" theme is no longer available.

If I do upgrade the JWMDesk app to the suggested new version, the JWM theme "Traditional" is also not available. In fact it looks like there are no themes -- and you have to build your own.

So, in answer to Mike Walsh, the problem isn't available alternative GUI choices and tools --- that's fine and was always possible in Puppy. The problem is the traditional standard Puppy look and action is unavailable. So in effect the choices have actually been reduced.

@vtpup :-

'Kay. I'll "bite".

When you say 'standard 'Default' theme', I'm not at all certain to what you're referring. I know you've been knocking around the kennels longer than I have.....the 'current' top-of-the line 'Standard' Puppy when I joined was Precise 5.71, shortly followed by PhilB's masterful take on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS "Trusty Tahr", aka Tahrpup 6.0 CE.

Yes, I've experimented with plenty of older Puppies, as far back as 4.3.1.....but to me, they all seem to use whatever the developer has decided is going to be his or her 'default' look. And they all seem to be different!

Of course, I'm in no position to talk, if I'm honest. I don't use themes anyway- apart from GTK2/JWM themes - and essentially create my own 'unified' appearance from whatever I can find. I found a gorgeous dark GTK2 theme called SlicknesS Black, which even has the sort of gloss/semi-transparent effect popularized by Vista, of all things. That's my favourite era of eye candy, when buttons, icons, etc, actually had some substance to them; shading, 3-D effects, depth, etc.....I absolutely detest this modern "flat-look" that's currently all the rage.

I guess I'm just stuck in the past!

Mike.

vtpup wrote: ↑Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:47 pm

Thank you again, geo_c.

To clarify for myself, as well as anyone else, exactly what I'm talking about, I went through older JWMDesk in Bionic, again to set up a traditional Puppy theme of the type I use. This would help in any attempt to create a script. They are:

Conky = off
Toolbar = autohide
thumbnails = off
GTK theme = old "Default"
Icon Theme = "Blue Moon"
Font = Sans 12
JWM theme = "Original"
Desk Icons = "Traditional"
Drive Icons = "Traditional"

So, in answer to Mike Walsh, the problem isn't available alternative GUI choices and tools --- that's fine and was always possible in Puppy. The problem is the traditional standard Puppy look and action is unavailable. So in effect the choices have actually been reduced.

I've been using Puppy since 411 and I never clued in to the fact that there is a "standard puppy" look. The only thing that ever seemed really consistent was the Traditional desktop icon arrangement of the Puppy Standard set. But there have always been quite a few of those to choose from also.

But you're right. I believe I took note when I first started using Fossapup two plus years ago that there only three gtk themes installed. I'm sure this was probably a choice to let the user install whatever themes they wanted from the puppy package manager. And if you go to the ppm you might find the theme you're looking for.

For Conky, go to /root/Startup and move the conky start up script to /root/Startup/disabled. That will do the trick.

For the tray autohide, go to the JWMdesk manager and select the Tray tab. There is an Autohide option, check Disable. This will remain even when switching JWM themes.

Old Default GTK, well I would have to locate that. I don't know that it's the actual name of the GTK theme. There are a good number of gtk themes in the Puppy Package Manager, maybe one of them is the traditional look. I just checked, and there's nothing in the names that gives it away.

Blue Moon - I would say to look here: https://smokey01.com/icon-sets/ but Blue Moon is not there. I have Blue Moon on my fossapup, and I don't remember installing it, but I may have. I zipped it and attached it to this post. Put it usr/share/icons.

The font and I assume you mean JWM windows and menu, should be changed using the JWM theme builder. But, you can simply go into the file /root/.jwm/jwmrc-theme and change the fonts of the Window Style, Tray Style, Pop-up Style, and Menu-Style. Then open the text file /root/.jwm/theme to see what you're current jwm theme is called, and then copy you're edited /root/.jwm/jwmrc-theme file into the /root/.jwm/themes folder under the name [yourcurrenttheme]-jwmrc. By doing that you will be able to change JWM themes and go back to that one with your chosen fonts.

Drive/Desktop Icons - In the fossapup ppm package manager there is a set of icons called Puppy Traditional Icons. I think that is what you're looking for. Just install it, and you will be able to choose them from JWMdesk>Icon Theme. note: by choosing the icon theme to traditional, it will change desktop icons, and menu icons. If you want Blue Moon, then you should choose Blue Moon there. Rox icons are stored in /usr/share/icons, not /usr/local/lib/X11/themes where the puppy standard sets for desktop and menu are stored. If you put the attached Blue Moon set in /usr/share/icons and try to use it for ROX, it will not work.

Make sure to update the puppy package manager, and choose all the Ubuntu repos and the puppy no arch. I think puppy-fossa64-official is automatically enabled.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:46 am

I absolutely detest this modern "flat-look" that's currently all the rage.

I guess I'm just stuck in the past!

Totally agree!!
Slickness black has been the starting point for my personal custom theme, which I am currently overhauling to better match gtk2/3 and jwm. Adjusting the iconpack to be full but not fat has been tedious...
Hope to post the end result soon.. just about done.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:46 am

@vtpup :-
'Kay. I'll "bite".
When you say 'standard 'Default' theme', I'm not at all certain to what you're referring.
Mike.

Screenshots of Bionic, Tahr, and Puppy 410 below:

Basically the default theme was a plain gray theme, black outlined, no shading, no gradient, no rounding, large accessible square buttons and sliders, a basic easily read theme. There is some slight variation in the images above because Puppys' X over the last 20 years (yes that's the span) handled the screen and fonts slightly differently, and these are actual screen shots in each OS. But the theme is consistent. This was called "Default."

geo_c wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:47 am

But you're right. I believe I took note when I first started using Fossapup two plus years ago that there only three gtk themes installed. I'm sure this was probably a choice to let the user install whatever themes they wanted from the puppy package manager.

I don't think that including the Puppy "Default" theme would in any way interfere with users installing other themes using the Puppy Package Manager.

Old Default GTK, well I would have to locate that. I don't know that it's the actual name of the GTK theme. There are a good number of gtk themes in the Puppy Package Manager, maybe one of them is the traditional look. I just checked, and there's nothing in the names that gives it away.

I believe the theme may be related to or the same as a theme once called "Raleigh" .

I've located a GTK 3 version of Raleigh here:

https://github.com/thesquash/gtk-theme-raleigh/

vtpup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:14 pm

I believe the theme may be related to or the same as a theme once called "Raleigh" .

Okay I found a gtk3 version of it. It looks exactly the same as one available in the Puppy Package Manager called Flat-grey.

This Raleigh is kind of big 1.5MB. It has some icons, and a dark version. Like I said, Flat-grey looks to be the same theme under a different name. I have two links to download each theme, and Flat Grey is also attached to this message because it's small enough. If you want the easy version, just download Flat-grey and unpack it in /usr/share/themes, and it'll show up in JWMdesk ready to go.

Raleigh:
https://mega.nz/file/ueQijTST#YlOamR9df ... 0PO-N1XFOs

Flat-grey:
https://mega.nz/file/TGJ0ETaK#CKnQpbp-S ... 5BVnVSB6rg

@vtpup it looks like you beat me to it, but as I posted flat-grey a lot less resource intensive.

vtpup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:14 pm

I don't think that including the Puppy "Default" theme would in any way interfere with users installing other themes using the Puppy Package Manager.

Perhaps we're just getting on up in years, but I don't think that theme is so popular with the young'ins these days.

puddlemoon wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:17 pm

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:46 am

I absolutely detest this modern "flat-look" that's currently all the rage.

I guess I'm just stuck in the past!

Totally agree!!
Slickness black has been the starting point for my personal custom theme, which I am currently overhauling to better match gtk2/3 and jwm. Adjusting the iconpack to be full but not fat has been tedious...
Hope to post the end result soon.. just about done.

You guys are gonna hate what I've been working on. I am the Flat Man, I Am the Black Man, I Am the Console....Koo Koo K'Choo... Koo Koo K'Choo

geo_c wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:02 pm

vtpup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:14 pm

I don't think that including the Puppy "Default" theme would in any way interfere with users installing other themes using the Puppy Package Manager.

Perhaps we're just getting on up in years, but I don't think that theme is so popular with the young'ins these days.

Not proven, and not a problem. Puppy should accommodate everyone. Not just the young, or the formerly young. Puppy should retain its puppiness as an option, even as an old dog.

Renaming "Default" might reduce confusion that it is A default. Creating instead "Puppy Old Style" as a perennial GTK option might do. And since Raleigh seems to be what was once called "Default" I'd suggest the version of Raleigh I linked to as the new "Puppy Old Style". It seems the author made a great effort to be true in translation from gtk2 to gtk3.

If included in Puppies as an option, it will be easy for anyone allergic to the term "old" to avoid, while those who find charm in long experience can enjoy that familiarity.

vtpup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:18 pm

Not proven, and not a problem. Puppy should accommodate everyone. Not just the young, or the formerly young. Puppy should retain its puppiness as an option, even as an old dog.

Well I just installed the gtk_theme_collection_vicmz-20121106 package from the ppm, and now I've got like a million gtk themes. They all suck and I use my own custom tweaked themes.

Seriously though.

You see the problem? If everyone is happy, no one is happy. At least not me. I'll never be happy.

No seriously, for real this time. Whatever floats you're boat is cool with me too, Flat grey and white. It's a classic.

If you've got that conky startup disabled, and the autohide disabled, and Blue Moon icons, and the Traditional desktop icons, OH, and it looks like I forgot about thumbnails. That's a ROX setting in options. Right-Click>Options>Filer windows>Thumbnails

So if all those things are squared away. It looks like my work here is done, and I'll be riding off into the sunset to compile some options into a build.

~geo

geo, thanks see my edited additions above.

Also I had already resolved the other needs in my list before you had. I only made the list to clarify for myself what I normally set things to -- I do know how to do that. The main problem was the loss of the Raleigh aka "Default" theme.

Incidentally the new Raleigh theme has happily solved all of issues with Seamonkey -- sliders are back to normal size (normal being a relative term) and the up and down arrow slider buttons are back.

vtpup wrote: ↑Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:18 pm

I'd suggest the version of Raleigh I linked to as the new "Puppy Old Style". It seems the author made a great effort to be true in translation from gtk2 to gtk3.

I think the term the young'ins would use is "Legacy Puppy GTK"

Nah, we said "legacy" back in CPM days. I have a 16 year old about 20 feet away. She says old, not legacy. She also runs Puppy btw with the most uhhhh, looking for the right word, uhhhh, okay, no, lets's skip the adjective...... desktop.