How does BionicPup32 delete a file?

[Chelsea80]

Hello all.

OS BionicPup32-8.0+28-uefi - Laptop Gateway 64 bit - Product MX8716B - Ver 3408350R - Intel Core2 Duo (Centrino Duo)

Take a deep breath.

Deleted Files In Windows

The Windows file system allows files to be undeleted because of the way that it deletes files.

Deleting a file does not actually remove it from the disk.

In the File Allocation Table (FAT) file system, the OS replaces the first letter of a deleted file name with a hex byte code, E5h. E5h indicates that the file is deleted. The FAT file system marks the corresponding clusters of that file as unused, but they are not. By doing this the space is made available to store a new file.

The Windows New Technology File System uses a different approach and marks the Index Field in the Master File Table with a special code. The computer now looks at the clusters occupied by that file as being empty, but they are not. By doing this the space is made available to store a new file.

Files can be recovered if the system has not overwritten all the space occupied by that file.

The less writes that are done between the time the file was deleted and the time undelete is attempted enhances the chance of recovery. Defrag and other large scale disk activity will, in all probability, make the file irretrievable.

Freeware and professional software can completely erase file(s) / folder(s) from the drive.

And breathe again.

Sorry about that but I thought it might help with an answer to my question.

I downloaded a programme (with many files and sub-folders in that programme). I don’t think naming it will help because the principle, I feel, would apply to any programme. Used it, didn’t like it. Now I want to delete it without leaving any bits and pieces behind in any location. Not understanding the deletion process of BionicPup32 I want to be sure that everything is gone for good. I know I can go to Applications > Filesystem > pFind file finder and list them there (I chose Hybrid in Configure > Settings). No batch delete is available that I can find so each file has to be deleted individually. Then going into sub-folders to delete each file. Even doing it that laborious way how can I be sure that they no longer exists on the drive (rhetorical). Perhaps they are just hidden from view. When a programme is installed files are put in all manner of places.

No, I am not Mr Paranoid. I accept that anything I don’t want to use can sit there forever and a day. Several programmes included in BionicPup32 have never, and probably never will be used by me.

I understand that with an SFS or a PET just deleting that folder will delete all the files held inside, maybe.

Knowing how the deletion process works will give me a better understanding of the inner workings of BionicPup32, which I happen to be interested in.

Best regards

Chelsea80

[bigpup]

In Puppy Linux.
Delete is delete.
It is gone.

If you want to just delete, but be able to maybe recover it. (Un-delete)

You drag and drop the file onto the desktop trash icon.
click on the trash icon to open the trash and see what is in it.
Right click on an item in the trash.
Select restore item.
It will be recovered to what it was and placed back into original location.

About the program you installed.

Run the Puppy Package Manager(PPM)
Click on the uninstall button.
If you see the program listed.
Select it
Select remove package.
That will remove/delete the program and everything installed for it.

If other dependency software programs or files also got installed.
Those should also be listed in the uninstall.
Stuff like this is not bad to keep.
It could be needed by some other program or actually did an update to the ones that where already there.

Doing what you are talking about using Pfind is the last resort way to remove a program.
But installed by using a pet or deb packaged program will have it listed in PPM uninstall.

If you are new to using Puppy Linux and coming from Windows OS.
viewtopic.php?t=5722

Yes, how you did the program install is needed information.
Puppy Linux has several ways to install programs.

[Chelsea80]

@ bigpup

Wow, that was a quick reply, thanks very much.

Succinct and informative, best way.

So, the Puppy Trash method is the same as the Recycle Bin method in Windows, as files can be restored to their original state in much the same way.

I will give the PPM Uninstall method a try.

If you have any advice as to if the programme is not listed (or, what do I do then) that would be appreciated.

It's too late now but I will click on the link you supplied.

Again my thanks

Best regards

Chelsea80

[bigpup]

I understand that with an SFS or a PET just deleting that folder will delete all the files held inside, maybe.

A pet package is a program packaged up so it can be installed.

To delete a pet package.
In the Rox file manager right click on the pet package and select delete.

If you left clicked on the pet package and installed whatever was in it.
Use the PPM -> Uninstall to remove it from the Puppy file system.

SFS packaged programs are not installed.
They are loaded into the file system or unloaded from the file system.
Use sfs-load-on-the-fly program to load/unload.
When loaded the contents are layered into the file system and work like it is installed.
When unloaded t it is no longer there to the file system. Completely gone.
If you want to delete a SFS package and no longer have it.
Delete it.

[bigpup]

I will give the PPM Uninstall method a try.

If you have any advice as to if the programme is not listed (or, what do I do then) that would be appreciated.

If it is not in PPM uninstall.
Pfind method you talked about is next best way.

[amethyst]

@Chelsea80
Pet files install like a program you would install with Windows. You can uninstall it with the package manager and it will be gone. When you have a frugal install (almost all Puppy users have a frugal install) the operating system and all other sfs files are in a read-only format. This means that you can not delete the contents of the sfs file (because it's read-only) without actually rebuilding and reproducing the sfs file. If you "delete" the contents (files) of loaded sfs's from the running operating system, they won't really be deleted from the system but only masked so that you can't see it anymore. We call these masked files, white-out files.
PS: The only way to get rid of files in an sfs permanently is to rebuild it as mentioned, either by way of editing the sfs itself or doing a remaster (which will rebuild a new base sfs file). So say you have "deleted" some files of the base sfs (which are then masked and not deleted really), you can do a remaster which will then exclude the masked (white-out) files.

[Chelsea80]

@ amethyst

Thanks for your reply.

OK, a lot of what you said is way above my working knowledge at the moment.

So, bite size chunks.

It seems that delete falls into three main sections. PPM (if the subject appears there), pFind and Edit-Remaster.

PET
I understand this. However, I feel, this delete method may leave the file(s) in place but hidden from view until the file is over written, as in Windows. This might be able to be confirmed with pFind *.wh.

*.wh
I have managed (after a bit of research) to use Applications > Filesystem > pFind file finder to see a list of all white-out (hidden files). This brings me back to having to delete each file individually. Although this does allow me to view all that have been left behind, which is useful.

SFS
I have left the best till last.

I understand the meaning of the Read Only attribute. I understand your explanation of how to permanently remove an SFS. It’s the working practice I have to contend with. I will have to do some research as to how to edit an SFS and remaster to obtain a rebuild.

bigpup wrote “If you want to delete a SFS package and no longer have it. Delete it”

You are saying edit the SFS then remaster to obtain a rebuild without the edited files..

I think I can use both of your helpful posts.

My project will be to:

Just delete the SFS, then use pFind to see if any files have been changed to white-out by using *.wh.

If that proves positive then I will try to find out how to edit an SFS and remaster to see if the rebuild is true.

I notice that there is an option Applications > Setup > Remaster Puppy live-CD, will give that a try after I find out how to edit an SFS.

Sometimes something presents itself and until that something is resolved it becomes a challenge.

Good, bad or indifferent I will report back. Although this may take some time with my limited knowledge.

Best regards to you both

Chelsea80

[amethyst]

@Chelsea80
You can try my utility suite which has tools for sfs editing and remastering, etc. viewtopic.php?p=12983#p12983

[Trapster]

If it's a xxx.pet pkg you installed, you can always rename the pet to xxx.tar.gz and then extract it.
It will show you all the files and where they were installed. No need for pfind.
But xxx.pet pkgs should also show up in the PPM as others have stated.

[amethyst]

If it's a xxx.pet pkg you installed, you can always rename the pet to xxx.tar.gz and then extract it.
It will show you all the files and where they were installed. No need for pfind.
But xxx.pet pkgs should also show up in the PPM as others have stated.

In /root/.packages you will find a list of the files for every .pet you have installed and where they are installed.

[Chelsea80]

Who the hell changed my RE: without having the courtesy to let me know it was changed or why it was changed. Is this the accepted action of a moderator or has there been a hack? If the former, then shame on you. I didn’t expect this attitude to exist on this forum. I expect to be treated with some element of respect when a decision is made against me. In this case it would be in the form of an explanation. This does not bode well for future posts, having to think all the time will it happen again. If the wording in the Re: wasn’t to your satisfaction then tell me why, then we can all get on with our lives. Although I wonder if this post will make it to the board.

[Wiz57]

@Chelsea80
I will contact the other moderators and URGE them to give an explanation for edits. I've done this in the past, but it sometimes
gets overlooked.
Apologies on behalf of the moderating staff of which I am a member.
Wiz

[bigpup]

What was changed?
Something in the subject of the topic?
What??

You are getting confused about the different packaging of software in Puppy Linux.

There are two types of SFS files.

The ones that are the SFS files that make up the Puppy operating system and are in the Puppy version ISO.
These are read only and stay that way.
Those you do not delete or the operating system is broken.
But the remaster process can be used to modify what is in them for programs.
Thus making your own version of this Puppy Linux.
Remastering is not something you want to just jump into.
You need to fully understand exactly what you are doing to use it.

A specific program packed as a SFS file is a program and all needed files inside the SFS package.
It is a way to run a program and not actually install it into the operating system.
you load or unload it into the operating file system.
When loaded the program works as if it was installed in the file system.
You delete the SFS package and it is gone.

[Flash]

Chelsea80, I changed the title of this thread only, to better reflect the fact that you were asking a question. Your original title, "Delete A File In BionicPup32," is cryptic. If you at least put a question mark at the end, you're more likely to get the help you want.

[Chelsea80]

OS BionicPup32-8.0+28-uefi - Frugal Install To Internal HD - Laptop Gateway 64 bit

I apologise for any confusion. I wrote Re: and I should have written Title. I was not a happy bunny at the time.

Original Title: Delete A File In BionicPup32

Changed by Flash to: How does bionic 32 delete a file?

@ Wiz57

Thank you for your generous reply. I hope your effort will be positive.

@ bigpup

Perhaps the above will answers you questions.

Thank you for a more detailed explanation of the types of SFS. At the moment I am compiling a personnel reference (crib sheet) as to the workings of BionicPup32 and your post will be most useful. Since starting to use this OS I have been greatly impressed from the end user point of view. Now I want to delve deeper.

@ Trapster

Thank you for your suggestion. When I have more time I will pursue this.

@ Flash

Thank you for identifying yourself as the moderator who made the change.

This may surprise you, but I actually agree (partly) with the change. So let me clarify, I don’t want to know how BionicPup32 actually deletes a file. I want to know what happens to a file when it is deleted. That is why I gave the Windows example in my first post.

Your use of the word cryptic (meaning: secret, mysterious) is not warranted. Had you said the Title needs to be more explicit, then I would agree with you. But you didn’t. If fact you didn’t say anything at all.

Had you posted that explanation at the time of changing the Title then we wouldn’t be here today.

Notwithstanding the fact that I could have worded the Title better, it did not stop bigpup, amethyst and Trapster replying with some positive information.

Perhaps we can all benefit from this.

Best regards to you all

Chelsea80

[wizard]

@Chelsea80

In defense of all our moderators, they do a lot of work behind the scenes to facilitate communication and answer members inquiries and keep the board free of spam and trash.

The reality is when each of us post a topic title, we know exactly what we are talking about, although a reader may not.

It would have been better if Flash had originally commented on his edit, but in the end it was not malicious and did not change the nature of your inquiry. A polite inquiry as to who made the change would not have had the confrontational tone of your first response.

You were not being singled out, I have had several of my topics edited by our mods and understand the reaction of "who did that and why". I could have been offended, but realized instead I should be flattered that someone took their time to read my topic and tried to help.

In the end, you always have the ability to change it back.

wizard

[mikeslr]

Chelsea80 "At the moment I am compiling a personnel reference (crib sheet) as to the workings of BionicPup32...I want to know what happens to a file when it is deleted."

I recommend that you read "How Puppy Linux Works", viewtopic.php?p=55827#p55827. Consider this a 'Summarization of Practical Effects' in layman's terms.

Your Frugal Puppy's Operating System is always created anew in RAM on boot-up, an index in RAM then being created as to what files are to be used. On boot-up, the index points to the actual files of READ-WRITE files-systems on Storage. If the file-system is a READ-ONLY its files will be cached in RAM with the index pointing to the Cached Files. At boot-up the order of priorities, from top to bottom, are
(1) Your Puppy's SaveFile/Folder-- it being the ONLY READ-WRITE filesystem.
(2) The contents of an adrv.sfs
(3) The contents of any ydrv.sfs

I refer to adrv.sfs and ydrv.sfs as 'alphabet.sfses'. Their name must reflect your Puppy's core/base file system, e.g. adrv_upupbb_19.03.sfs. So there can only be one filesystem in use with that name. Your Puppys initrd(.?z) tells Puppy what filesystems to make use of at boot-up. There are ways to modify initrd so that it can make use of other 'alphabet.sfses'. But all Puppys will use an adrv.sfs and/or ydrv.sfs on boot-up if it is adjacent to the core/base filesystem.

(4) Your Puppy's base/core filesystem. In Bionicpup32 it's the file named puppy_upupbb_19.03.sfs. It contains the file-manager, window-manager and all the 'user' applications the Dev's creator thought everyone might want/find useful.

(5) User applications packages as an SFS. For example, LibreOffice.sfs.

The index will always point to the files having the highest priority. Conflicting files having lower priorities will not be used.

When you install an application (e.g. pet or deb) in a Puppy booted from a hard-drive the contents of the application will be immediately written to the SaveFile/Folder. [This is referred to as PupMode 12].

When you install an application into a Puppy booted from a USB-Key [PupMode 13] the contents of the new package are written to a Special folder in RAM. That folder has higher priority than your SaveFile/Folder.

[Puppys booted from a hard-drive can operate under PupMode 13. To do that requires a simple edit of the boot-arguments in the menu.lst or grub.cfg --to read pmedia=ataflash-- and a change of setting in Menu>System>PupEvent Manager, Save Session, Interval=0, checkmark in 'Ask at Shutdown' box. Later changes to your system will not be written to the SaveFile/Folder unless you execute a Save. I always make that change as I don't want anything written to my SaveFile/Folder without my permission. After making that change I can still test whether a pet works without Saving by Menu>Exit>Restart-x AKA Graphical Server. That causes Puppys to re-index the files of its system, recognizing the existence of files in the Special Folder as now having the highest priority].

As far as I can tell, all that happens when you use Remove-Builtins or delete a file obtained from a READ-ONLY filesystem is that 'white-out' files named '.wh' are written to the index. The white-out files have higher priority than their associated files. So, although the files still exists they are not used.

PPM's Uninstall module, on the other hand, will physically remove an application's files from a SaveFile/Folder.

SaveFiles/Folders are READ-WRITE. You can physically access either. If a SaveFile, you'll have to first Left-Click to mount it. Then file-browse into the SaveFile/Folder. Files can then be physically removed.

If the file-system is READ-ONLY, to physically remove a file requires that file system be re-built, the white-out files serving to prevent 'deleted' files from being included in the new build. amethyst has published a Utility Suite of tools for any 'rebuilding project', viewtopic.php?t=1694. It includes nicOS-SFS-Editor(RightClick) on its Right-Click tools.

I can tell you little about "Move to Trash" beyond what bigpup has written. On Bionicpup64 an option to use it will appear when I right-click a file. If your Puppy doesn't offer that Right-Click option, it can probably be created. As far as I can tell, however, it's configured to move 'trashed' files to /mnt/home. So it can't be used until you have a SaveFile/Folder or if you operate without one: no drive/partition has be designated as '/mnt/home'.

[bigpup]

There is a lot of good information, about Puppy Linux, and the way it works, in the forum section:
Getting Started and System Requirements
viewforum.php?f=184

We are Puppy!
Resistance is futile!
Learn you must!

[bigpup]

Notwithstanding the fact that I could have worded the Title better, it did not stop bigpup, amethyst and Trapster replying with some positive information.

It is fun, trying to read between the lines, and figure out, what exactly, this person is trying to find out or do

This gets proven every day:
What they do not tell us, is usually the clue, to solving the problem!

Example:
OS BionicPup32-8.0+28-uefi - Frugal Install To Internal HD - Laptop Gateway 64 bit
But what processor?
How much memory?
What is the graphics hardware?
Even what model. We can look it up for specs.

This info is not critical for what you are asking.
But you could be using the wrong version of Puppy, to give you the best support.
It may not be providing the full features of the computer hardware.

No one Puppy version will work the best on all possible computers.
But there will be one or several, that will on your computer.

With everything in software moving to only offer 64bit versions.
Any big reason you do not want to try a 64bit Puppy version?

[Chelsea80]

OS BionicPup32-8.0+28-uefi - Frugal Install To Internal HD - Laptop Gateway 64 bit MX8716B
Boot Partition: sda1 Size 111G, Free 91G - Boot File System: ext2 - Boot Media: atahd
BIOS Phoenix Technologies LTD - Version 72.14 - Release Date 19 Mar 2007
Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T5300 @ 1.73GHz

@ Wizard

Your comments have been noted. I will Take 5 next time (not Dave Brubeck)

@ mikesir

Thank you. That is a lot to digest. A slow and careful read, again and again in store. I followed the supplied link. The words ‘advanced topic’ will not put me off from trying to learn something from it, although I haven’t got past the toddler stage yet.

@ bigpup

The link to rockedge ‘Getting Started.....’ is going to prove very helpful indeed, nice one.

As you say, “This info is not critical for what you are asking”, but for fullness sake I have included some extra info.

My choice of BionicPup32 was made after trying (many) several versions of Puppy. I just seemed to gel with BionicPup32. It is always best to work with something that gives pleasure.

I actually have two 32 bit laptops that I play around on. Mostly testing software (of a certain age), using my Hex Editor and writing programmes in MSDOS 6.2 for my own amusement. I know, I know, ‘you can take the man out of DOS but you can’t take DOS out of the man’. Sad but true. There, that’s showing my age. Of course my Gateway is 64 bit, so, best of both worlds.

Thanks to all repliers

Best regards

Chelsea80

[Phoenix]

As a side note to deletion, seeing that deletion on a layered filesystem was already explained: That it either is whited out, or deleted off the read/write layer.

Delete (might) not actually be delete. You see, most Linux systems now use a journaling filesystem (ext3/4 or others) and key point here: its a waste of time to actually wipe out the bits. We simply just delete the pointer and it won't be visible to the eye. Just 'empty' space is what it sees.

This is why recovery software works, because it scrounges the storage medium itself to piece it together. (Optionally you could go for modifying the filesystem itself to recover it, but ext2 for instance happens to make it difficult to recover any big files)

Now because we have a journal we can look through it for information, then use it to recover the data. Provided that you didn't use the disk in the meantime.

So if you want to truly delete data you need to either use ``dd`` or some utility to zero it out. Or you can go for an irreversible (99%) method, smashing it with a hammer and maybe melting it into slag on a fire. Or I guess dumping it into the ocean.

EDIT:

Your question would more likely apply to Linux as a whole.

[Chelsea80]

Hello All

In my third post I said “”Good, bad or indifferent I will report back. Although this may take some time with my limited knowledge.” Meaning in Linux.

With the helpful replies and my own research I feel I have a better understanding of what happens to a file when deleted in Linux.

When a file is deleted, it doesn’t actually get permanently and securely deleted from the hard disk. Although it seems to be until the inode is factored in.

In the ext2 file system the inode and the blocks where the data is stored are just marked as unused so that this inode number and data blocks can be re-used (see 1st post for what Windows does). That is to say the ‘deleted’ file contents remain in place until overwritten by hard disk activity; new saves, installs, etc.

In the ext3 file system the size, block pointers (direct, indirect, double indirect, triple indirect) are marked as zero by the operating system. That is to say the ‘deleted’ file contents remain in place until overwritten by hard disk activity; new saves, installs, etc.

It has been very interesting to find out about a new (to me) deleting procedure. My understanding of the Windows deletion procedure has been very helpful in this instance. I leave the what, how and when of inode with you to explore, if you so wish. Using the terminal, information can be obtained regarding what is going on ‘under the hood’ with inode. Onwards and upwards.

Some of the above has been gleaned from on-line information.

Best regards

Chelsea80