Discussion, talk and tips
https://forum.puppylinux.com/
Ref: https://bkhome.org/news/202206/samba-to-be-removed.html
You asked for comments.
As someone with a network that shares some storage drives, I do use it at times such as a full backup. But not on my Internet workstation. Surely if it was a .sfs that could be loaded when needed, or an installable package if the first was too cumbersome, that would surfice to cover everyones needs.
I suppose the sfs option could be used for a number of apps. browser, libreoffice, etc, although I realize some feel every install should have some minimums.
Seems like Barry does quite a bit of work to maintain a sfs installer and repo, and sfs can be expected to work out of the box.
I have never really understood why the easy.sfs, initrd and vimlinuz need to be in the vfat partition. Am I missing something essential by making frugal installs in the ext sda2 and placing everything in the working partition, the vfat only needs /EFI which remains mostly unchanged
I agree to better providing samba as sfs or pet. Which "normal user" needs samba nowadays? If you have access to the "MS Windows" computer you can also use an USB stick, or even your cellphone to transfer files.
williwaw wrote:
"I suppose the sfs option could be used for a number of apps. browser, libreoffice, etc, although I realize some feel every install should have some minimums."
Well, some minimums are okay, but I think samba doesn't belong to this.
Me for my part I don't use "MS Windows" since the year of 2000 at home anymore, so samba is useless for me.
Regards,
Berto
I use SAMBA a lot and also as a print server on many systems on several layered LAN's and none of them are Windows OS's........
I prefer Unix style, which Fatdog replicates with its inner 'Bulldog'. A lean initial boot system, perhaps just the likes of cli/X/ssh/wget, enough to boot and initially set up locale, network connection. And a secondary larger boot phase where libre office, firefox ... whatever is added in, perhaps in the first instance via a secondary sfs download/install i.e. into the second easyos partition. Involves another reboot after the first boot/first-run/setup locale/network 'installation' phase (resizing of second partition), with a sfs download as part of that, but thereafter no difference and where the first partition is kept relatively small (no samba, libre, firefox ...etc.).
Of the two that would perhaps be a easier 'redesign' than that of removing the existing samba elements from the existing base system.
Could be a user experience of download easyos.img, dd that to a usb, boot the usb and that extends (resizes) the second partition and then loads to a X desktop where they fill in their location, keyboard, set up firewall and net connect ... and then a main.sfs is downloaded into the secondary partition containing libre/firefox/samba ... and then they reboot into that full system, much the same as the existing setup. Alternatively have you ever tried the OpenBSD installation process? Two choices of a really small network connection based install download/install choice, or another download choice that includes all of the 'sets' (tgz files for base, X ..etc., paramount to sfs files in Puppy case) to be installed, so that they're locally available for those that might not have a internet connection at the time of installation.
I do like the OpenBSD installation style, which is similar to the existing EasyOS initial phase where you're asked to enter a number for your country code, enter a root password ... etc. but a stream of other questions where mostly you just press ENTER to accept the defaults ... default offered partitioning, default sets (main sfs) ...etc.
In OpenBSD's case they have around a dozen sets involved as basically each set in just un-tar'd so for instance etc.tgz populates /etc. For easyos and sfs laying there's no need for such separation other than between base (cli/X/wget/ssh) and main (libre/firefox/samba).
What that video didn't show is when prompted for country they knew what that was and entered 'be', but where most might key the ? show list choice to show a list of available choices, that might look similar to the existing EasyOS list where I key in 21 for a GB keyboard layout. Ditto for a list of timezones such as Europe/London (or might again equally be a keyed in numeric value associated to London/Europe).
I'd guess that approach might have the initial download (and hence first partition size) down at perhaps 250MB type size 
Whilst also opening up the potential for the 'main' sfs to include much more without too much concern about its size. Or better still some flexibility in what is in the main sfs (or combination of sfs's that might be layered). In my case base OpenBSD and tigervnc is all I need for a full desktop experience, as once booted/net connected/X running I vnc into a server where I run browser/libreoffice ...etc. With wiak's suggested VirtualGL approach that desktop actually runs/displays faster for me than if I ran a browser directly/locally, as VirtualGL comfortably fills the local display pixels quickly enough whilst the server has more cores and faster internet (hard wired rather than wifi) so renders web pages quicker. viewtopic.php?p=33236#p33236 My thoughts in that direction are to stick a pi 4b or suchlike to the top of my now dated laptop, where its still quick enough to handle being fed the pixels, but hopefully where its VirtualGL'd/networked to the pi that does the downloading/rendering. Old laptop remains being useful but becomes a 6 core 12GB system instead of being a 2 core 4GB. And where subsequent laptop upgrades involve just swapping out the pi (much cheaper than replacing the laptop and defers landfill).
My earlier guess of the first partition being possibly around 250MB looks reasonable ...
For lz4 -Xhc compressed sfs :
easyos sfs as-is 750MB
easyos excluding /usr/lib sfs filesize 283MB
sfs of /usr/lib 468MB
So as separate sfs's just 1MB larger combined
I tried kvm/qemu booting bionic pup iso with easy image as the virtual disk, removed easy.sfs from /mnt/sda1 and scp'd in the smaller version, scp'd usrlib.sfs to the second partition .... and then dd'd and booted that image - but the boot failed to mount easy.sfs, looks like because there was no loop0 device available (running losetup -f indicated /dev/loop0 as the next free loop, but no loop0 was preserved for ... mount -t squashfs -o loop0,noatime /mnt/sda1/easy.sfs tro ... to be used). Maybe something for losetup is required for the mount or loop ??
Involves another reboot after the first boot/first-run/setup locale/network 'installation' phase (resizing of second partition), with a sfs download as part of that, but thereafter no difference and where the first partition is kept relatively small (no samba, libre, firefox ...etc.).
maybe sfsget runs at first boot along with Quicksetup First Run, Multiple Soundcard Wizard, etc and the user selects a browser and samba or whatever other offerings in the sfs repo?
williwaw wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:18 amI have never really understood why the easy.sfs, initrd and vimlinuz need to be in the vfat partition. Am I missing something essential by making frugal installs in the ext sda2 and placing everything in the working partition, the vfat only needs /EFI which remains mostly unchanged
Thinking back to the reasoning in the early days of EasyOS. So, easy.sfs, vmlinuz and initrd were in the vfat partition. I wanted simple drag-and-drop replace them to update, but that won't work if easy.sfs hasn't been copied to ram. Which would be the case if there isn't enough ram, it would be mounted where it is, so it is in use and cannot be replaced.
But wanted to support version rollback, so needed to have the files inside the 'releases' folder, for the purpose of rollback and roll-forward. So, first bootup, copy those files to the 'releases' folder, then mount easy.sfs in the releases folder. easy.sfs in the boot partition is then unused and can be replaced to update.
Update detection is also simplified. after replacing vmlinuz, easy.sfs, and initrd, reboot and the 'init' script in initrd will read the new version number (from /etc/DISTRO_SPECS) in the new easy.sfs, see that there is no copy in the releases folder and know that an update is to be performed.
The new vmlinuz etc will get copied into the releases folder, and the easy.sfs in the releases folder get mounted in the layered f.s.
I've already commented to @BarryK on this issue. I will rephrase it here.
It intends to make clear misconceptions that users have about SAMBA and the implementation that have been around Puppyland for about a decade. Here's why it is here.
Most home users have a myriad of various communicating device at home
Most users have PCs at home that have various pieces of information that are used within the home
Since 1995 PCs have come with the ability to share its files with its home (LAN) neighbors: thus Unix, Windows, Apple, SUN, etc ... ALL ... now use a common protocol (SMB) to share information files.
SAMBA is and has always been a way to have a local PC share its information with its LAN neighbors and the world adopted it to be ubiquitous.
SAMBA was NEVER designed for Internet use...merely and only... LAN (home) use intent
With SAMBA, built in and coming standard within, every user who want to securely share information with its other LAN users can do so; simply, and with familiar methods to do so. This done in almost all modern cases of operation systems; namely Unix, Wins, Apples, etc. by merely sharing to the LAN.
In modern PUPs, no users are having ANY problems with SAMBA, active or not. SAMBA when not active has NO IMPACT ON ANY SYSTEM OPERATION!
When a PUP shares its files all modern devices (ie TVs, tablets, phones, cameras, home photo displays, appliances, etc) have clients that allow connection to a PUP to benefit from the PUP's sharing
PUP sharing is secured be any mechanism a users wants to implement as they determine
LASTLY PUP USERS DO NOT
NEED TO INSTALL OR
FIGURE HOW OR
INVESTIGATE MISSING COMPONENTS OR
BOTHER OTHERS AS THE IMPLEMENTATION IN THESE PUPS REMOVES ALL THE NORMAL HEADACHES THAT SURFACE WHEN REQUIRED TO SHARE STUFF.
There's more, but I think most get the picture.
SAMBA is not just some 'ancillary hanging around "bloat"' as it appears that some developers are leaning and touting. Its ubiquitous, useful, secure...even if it is not actively running allowing easy sharing of some information that your local PC would want to make active whenever needed.
Many of us use SAMBA far more that we would use software to modify video files, or, the ...
Its non-intrusive and has value.
SAMBA is needed; and to force users to install and have the headaches associated when users MUST do things causes issues with forum supporters that need not occur in a well-planned system. I marvel at the forethought of having SAMBA built in by the @fatdog group, @01Micko with Slacko who led the way for the implementations we have together in these forum distro solutions we enjoy today.
This misconception seemingly has garnered a note by people who are resistors in today's world of communicating devices. OR, it is intended to get users more involved in installing needed products from scratch with an illogical argument that its minor space requirement during system's operation, somehow, has a negative impact on a system's behavior.
Either of these resistances does not detract from the direction of informational needs of ubiquity in our homes. Home devices will only increase and the need for sharing from a local PC will not decrease. It will, though, be found that some users will avoid use of distros that include a difficulty, OOTB, to get real work done. And, others, like me, will continue to gravitate to products that provide the ability to easily share information as the past PUPs and DOGs have ... before this recent uprising.
Please do not look at this post as offensive, as its intent is to present a picture that some will understand why this thread has surfaced. My comments are NOT predicated on whether I like someone or not...they intend to be observed in a light of facts or easy, simple usefulness.
Thanks for any understanding and any consideration.
In Summary: SAMBA is NOT the client to connect to other PCs or etc ... SAMBA is the UNIX/Linux ability to share information from our local PCs, ubiquitously.
@Clarity,
Well, I respect and appreciate all the work that has been done by SAMBA as well as Puppy developers, but I think SAMBA nowadays is a little outdated for most users' habits. Files are shared with WiFi, Bluetooth, NAS, cloud storage, email, small FTP like Filezilla, ShareIt , etc ...
There's even no need for print servers anymore, coz printers are accessible with bluetooth.
I know, data security is at a risk with these solutions, but with lots of cables laying around from one room of your home to the other your physical safety is at a risk, when staggering over it 
No honestly, if someone personally has reasons to use SAMBA, the one could download it. I don't know any distro aside from Puppies that includes SAMBA in their basic download. AntiX doesn't, Q4OS doesn't, Debian, MX, Ubuntu don't, and even Enterprise- near distros like OpenSuse or Fedora don't. And for the big distros some MB more or less download volume wouldn't matter.
For me download volume matters, coz I am downloading EasyOS, if new versions with CP on data connection, not WiFi. Every MB costs money.
Regards,
Berto
I too am a user of samba and file sharing. I started out with a MS Win 2000 computer as a file server because I couldn't figure out how to setup samba in Puppy back then. Then came rcsrn's samba-tng and the server became a Puppy box, but it was still no easy task to setup.
I found 01micko's Samba Simple Management app in Slacko 6.3 and that's when file sharing in Puppy became as easy as in MS Windows. Now all my devices, computers, tablets, and phones can access all the photos, music, videos and movies from anywhere in the house plus it's a great way to move files around between devices.
In a time when NAS devices and universal connectivity are on the rise it seems removing samba might make Puppy less desirable. Don't misunderstand, it doesn't have to be samba, but if it is replaced it needs to be something that is just as universal.
Don't know if removing samba from easyos is the right thing, but think removing connectivity from mainline Pup is the wrong thing.
Making file sharing in Puppy even easier would attract a greater number of users.
wizard
Files are shared with WiFi, Bluetooth, NAS, cloud storage, email, small FTP like Filezilla, ShareIt , etc ...
You are mixing hardware and software network layers and web technologies, so all of those really don't compare to samba which is a LAN (local area network) application layer protocol. It is cross-platform and works on computers, tablets and phones. It allows you to connect devices and store, upload/download, or stream files on the LAN. Not only lets you "share" files, it lets you access them as if they were on your local drive, so you can edit, view, listen without ever having to transfer them. Apples and oranges kind of thing.
wizard
BarryK wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:45 pmwilliwaw wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:18 amI have never really understood why the easy.sfs, initrd and vimlinuz need to be in the vfat partition. Am I missing something essential by making frugal installs in the ext sda2 and placing everything in the working partition, the vfat only needs /EFI which remains mostly unchanged
Thinking back to the reasoning in the early days of EasyOS. So, easy.sfs, vmlinuz and initrd were in the vfat partition. I wanted simple drag-and-drop replace them to update, but that won't work if easy.sfs hasn't been copied to ram. Which would be the case if there isn't enough ram, it would be mounted where it is, so it is in use and cannot be replaced.
But wanted to support version rollback, so needed to have the files inside the 'releases' folder, for the purpose of rollback and roll-forward. So, first bootup, copy those files to the 'releases' folder, then mount easy.sfs in the releases folder. easy.sfs in the boot partition is then unused and can be replaced to update.
Update detection is also simplified. after replacing vmlinuz, easy.sfs, and initrd, reboot and the 'init' script in initrd will read the new version number (from /etc/DISTRO_SPECS) in the new easy.sfs, see that there is no copy in the releases folder and know that an update is to be performed.
The new vmlinuz etc will get copied into the releases folder, and the easy.sfs in the releases folder get mounted in the layered f.s.
Aargh, now you've got me rethinking the entire partitions structure!
Thinking right back to early 2017, there was only one partition in the flash-stick image, the boot-partition. This had vmlinuz, easy.sfs and initrd. At bootup, if the designated working-partition did not exist, it was created. Normally, that meant creating a partition to fill the rest of the flash-stick.
It was later on that pre-created a small working-partition, that had to be expanded to fill the drive.
Rethinking everything now... it would be possible to avoid that long time to copy easy.sfs from boot-partition to working-partition, if it was already in the working-partition. So, if you do a version update, drop the new easy.sfs into the working-partition, at bootup it will be seen and will then know it is an update, and the new easy.sfs can be moved into the 'releases' folder.
A 'mv' operation within the same filesystem does not involve a copy and is fast.
Right now I am running 4.0.1, took out samba, hexchat and gimp, and put seamonkey back in. easy.sfs is now 748MiB. The absolute maximum size that will fit into the boot-partition is 755MiB.
Anyway, see the previous post, I'm going to rethink the whole thing, and might make a bit more space for easy.sfs
wizard wrote: ↑Sat Jun 11, 2022 10:26 pmIn a time when NAS devices and universal connectivity are on the rise it seems removing samba might make Puppy less desirable. Don't misunderstand, it doesn't have to be samba, but if it is replaced it needs to be something that is just as universal.
...
Don't know if removing samba from easyos is the right thing, but think removing connectivity from mainline Pup is the wrong thing.Making file sharing in Puppy even easier would attract a greater number of users.
I never use Windows in any meaningful sense, and don't use samba, so in that sense I do not myself care.
However... the original Puppy (and ever since I think) was promoted via the notion that it contained everything (in some form or other) the average user would normally need to be productive. Obviously the LAN and Internet is a major part of our usage experience, and sharing between our hooked-up devices is a big part of that. In general computer use on the whole, the question would be, what machines are dominant on the network and what mechanism do they use for 'sharing' resources? Identifying that mechanism is surely key to determining what Puppy would need to include (though perhaps via an sfs addon) in its provision if it was truly to contain everything the average user would normally need to be productive. I guess the choice of SeaMonkey was to do with that 'philosophy' since it contained several key components in one package that an average user might well need. I suspect samba was also seen as important because of the Windows dominating world - I also suspect Windows is still the main desktop system on the 'network', but maybe samba is too big to add in core distro, which continues to endeavour to be as compact as reasonably possible, and samba is certainly not required, needed or wanted by everyone.
Thanks for your comment, but I ask: "Are you sure about your comment." Take a look at distrowatch. There are quite a few for years.
Further your earlier reference in the same post is about clients access...not PCs sharing files with others in the home? Phone tapping is not something we are referencing in its limited capacity. Walking phones somewhere to tap, downloading to USBs and then carrying somewhere in one's home to upload, and other such efforts are not what SAMBA is for. Those efforts are certainly not replacements for the instant methods that have been used among LAN users for decades via SMB technology.
You personally may not have occasions to share information thruout your home, but for many of the world's PC users, this has brought the ability for instant backup, instant access, instant availability of any information one PCs has.
Agree that you are one who has not found problems in installation of packages, but the fact is installation issues for many users over the past 4 decades of PC use is common. Thus, to suggest that "users can easily ..." means you believe every PUP users is master at such...which is not the case.
But, if @BarryK or any distro developer finds it a problem to be included for any reason, its their CHOICE to take steps they feel is best.
For me, like many users, from our PCs we share from and backup to SAMBA as well as the SMB servers of other systems in the home. Thus, this is about whether a developer feels it is something he wants users to have, OOTB.
BTW: In reading over PUP's past history, it appears SAMBA inclusion in DOGs and PUPs "is to match functionality that is found in any Windows or MACs ..." for decades. Turns out, it does it better with lower system-network impacts than SMB functionality in Microsoft.
Enjoy.
"Remove existing packages" option along with remaster Easy Linux option, pretty well takes care of anything I dont want. Dunfell has impressed me a lot, its fast and has put up with lot software experimenting and downright kludgy hacks without getting crashy. Does it have everything I want, no, does it have stuff I dont want, yes. Is any of that a deal killer, nope.
@Clarity,
thanks for your answers and your opinion, but I still disagree partly. I accept scsijon's argument, SAMBA is useful for backups. I agree also to you, that it's not always easy to install additional programs. And finally I agree that an "all-around" solution with smallest download size is wished by very most users. But that's impossible. Somewhere there are limits if you don't want to bloat up your distro with trying to satisfy everyone.
Hahaha, look at this: https://psychoslinux.gitlab.io/index_mobile.html
About streaming and working on files on another PC: You said we are only talking about LAN for home-users. Well, to use SAMBA, it is necessary, that the PC's or else are turned on. I don't know how big your house is, but in mine it's not sooo far to go to another room, where the PC with the file to edit is, and do it directly on this computer. And as mentioned before, it is turned on already anyway.
Concerning streaming, I never did. I dunno what to stream. Why I should download a video from YouTube or whatever at first, then stream it to another PC? Same as before, I could watch it on the "download PC" directly.
Aside from this I got a home entertainment box for my cheap Chinese LCD TV, turning it into a smart TV. I can watch YouTube, Netflix, etc, listen to Spotify or others on my TV. No need to stream, but if I would like I could stream from Cellphone too, or transfer the files from laptop to TV with USB or use the TV as second monitor with HDMI or VGA.
Btw. My cellphone has 64 GB memory, could even extend it with SD card, but not necessary. It's enough even to download Linux distros wherever I am.
https://www.globe.com.ph/broadband/stre ... .html#gref
Hope you don't get me wrong if in some parts of this post I'm joking a little.
However for me I don't need SAMBA, but I understand that some people like it.
Regards,
Berto
Puppy has a built-in Samba server because gcmartin badgered developers into including it. Puppy had a Samba client long before that.
People who want to run a proper Samba NAS should be using something better than the Puppy server.
Don't need a "propper" samba server, that's horendous to manage. The existing set is all I use, and have done since it was origonally created. And as long as it's a installable package or maybe a loadable/unloadable sfs, that's the way I use sfs's, I expect it's all puppy-people should usually need.
Barry's taking out gimp also worries me (https://bkhome.org/news/202206/the-retu ... think.html) as I use it nearly on a daily basis with my scanlation work, but similarly, as long as it's a installable package the problem is solved. And i like it that seamonkey is back, that's always been a usefull tool.
@rcrsn51 I saw that on the old forum: SAMBA was added in Fatdog, then Lighthouse, Slacko, etc in that order...if I read correctly.
SAMBA was included to make PUPPY Linux a 'direct', OOTB competitor to Windows.
SAMBA allows Puppy Linux to do the same things in the home LAN that ALL Windows users enjoy native in their PC. It is hoped that everyone knows this.
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.