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EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:37 am
by BarryK
Steamrolling ahead! Yes, another one:
https://bkhome.org/news/202112/easyos-3 ... eased.html
Quoting from blog post:
Very important enhancements; now have Qt5 libraries, and three powerful media applications. Those apps are:
Scribus desktop publishing
LiVES video editing
OBS Studio video streaming/recording
Feedback welcome! I will read this thread, but intermittently for awhile.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:57 am
by BologneChe
@BarryK
Looks like it reinstalls me 3.1.15 ... everything ended up with an error
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:55 am
by Keef
Failed for me too:
Code: Select all
Downloading easy-2022-amd64.img.gz ...
receiving incremental file list
rsync: link_stat "/amd64/releases/dunfell/2022/easy-2022-amd64.img.gz" (in easyos) failed: No such file or directory (2)
sent 8 bytes received 140 bytes 98.67 bytes/sec
total size is 0 speedup is 0.00
rsync error: some files/attrs were not transferred (see previous errors) (code 23) at ../rsync-3.1.3/main.c(1659) [Receiver=3.1.3]
Something went wrong with the download. Aborting
Script terminated, close the window
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2021 11:48 am
by BarryK
Sorry about that, fixed:
https://bkhome.org/news/202112/little-f ... -3117.html
You should have got suspicious when it showed the new version as "2022"!
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:59 pm
by oui
Hi Barry, hi all friends of the Puppy linux world,
I did or course see the announce of this new release at distrowatch and read here those lines.
But it becomes more and more difficult to read also the announcements going into technical details being not really common ...
I am awaiting for an old ISO as Barry did spend us from time to time. Easy is not easy at all if you have to learn all again. It was a wrong name for this new distro...
As it seems don't to have some real wiki, you have to look daily the blog. Ok! But if you miss one only piece of the chain of information you can not follow at all any more as there is no alphabetic and systematic register for the information where you can find what! If Easy would be an conventional Linux, you would only have to look in a systematic training book online to find more. But Easy it not conventional at all! All distros continue to publish ISO's and you have no need to read some read.me to start then excepted to get username or password!
and I see new about completely conventional distros come with size in the neighborhood of the size of new Puppy's and Easy's (under 1 GB) with refracta, a way to easily remaster the stuff like in old Puppy's and with complete window managers lxqt and starting with the usual actual GNU grub
why learn to handle some difficult proprieties from a wrong "easy"?
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:19 am
by scsijon
Hi, added a new ssd drive in an existing hp box (hp compaq pro 4300 sff pc with an old i5-3470s) that I use as a development box, i's always worked before with both quirky and easyos since I first got it. It installed fast, however no sound, pulsaudio volume control says there is no speakers (unavailable) and using manual system alsamixer can't select a sound card other than default. i checked volume is set to 100% so that's not the problem and sound is set to speakers. Also /tmp/xerrs.log, pupsysinfo (seems to be all ok under devices/audio) as is sound under hardinfo. tried a different set of speakers with the same result and the speakers work ok elsewhere. Box works with the speakers under other versions so it's not the socket either.
Is there a missing sound package or something you can sugest I try?
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:01 am
by Maybe
Hey @scsijon ! Try:
1) right-click on the speaker in the panel in the lower right corner and select "Options" from the menu
2) In the "Output device" tab, click on the "Mute Audio" button to turn off the silence
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 6:50 am
by scsijon
thanks 'maybe', but all that did was set it to connect to device dummy, nothing else changed.
The sound is onboard as device HDA-Intel PCH.
Using one of the sound directories clicking on a sound icon brings up audacious which shows the wave is presented, but nothing forward.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:18 am
by Maybe
I am very happy with innovations such as out-of-the-box OBS-studio and LiVES!
The system is very responsive and works well! Thanks a lot for the good job!
2 things upset me:
1) WiFi does not work on my laptop in EasyOS, while there are no WiFi problems in Fossa Pup and ScPup64. In VanillaPup64 from @dimkr, WiFi only works after the side of the laptop is turned off and then turned on the WiFi switch.
Here are the specifications of the device:
Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82577LM Gigabit Network Connection [8086:10ea] (rev 06)
• Kernel Driver: e1000e
• Memory Used: 172.00 KB
• Path: /lib/modules/5.10.83/kernel/drivers/net/ethernet/intel/e1000e/e1000e.ko
• Description: Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver
2) Unfortunately, I was never able to run OBS-studio on my laptop. But I'm trying to look for help here: viewtopic.php?t=4766 Oh... So close and so far
From Dmitry (Russia)
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:51 pm
by hundido
Did a fresh install on a USB using EasyDD from Fossapup9.5.
Booted on my Ryzen 5800x. Everything looked good until the screen went black.
I tried to reboot to fix broken video. The computer didn't see the drive for some reason this time. I gave up for now.
I had to reboot into Manjaro 2x because the first time I had a broken keyboard at the password screen. I have no idea if it was related, but that doesn't usually happen.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:16 pm
by williwaw
oui wrote: ↑Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:59 pm
As it seems don't to have some real wiki, you have to look daily the blog. Ok! But if you miss one only piece of the chain of information you can not follow at all any more as there is no alphabetic and systematic register for the information where you can find what!
oui,
I find the easiest way to find something is to use the google search function on Barrys home page
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:35 pm
by esmourguit
Bonjour Oui,
Peut-être allez-vous trouver quelques infos (traduites en français par JJ Moulinier) à propos de EasyOs ici : http://toutoulinux.free.fr/Accueil Easy ... ories.html
Cordialement.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:55 am
by scsijon
scsijon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:19 am
Hi, added a new ssd drive in an existing hp box (hp compaq pro 4300 sff pc with an old i5-3470s) that I use as a development box, i's always worked before with both quirky and easyos since I first got it. It installed fast, however no sound, pulsaudio volume control says there is no speakers (unavailable) and using manual system alsamixer can't select a sound card other than default. i checked volume is set to 100% so that's not the problem and sound is set to speakers. Also /tmp/xerrs.log, pupsysinfo (seems to be all ok under devices/audio) as is sound under hardinfo. tried a different set of speakers with the same result and the speakers work ok elsewhere. Box works with the speakers under other versions so it's not the socket either.
Is there a missing sound package or something you can sugest I try?
Ok, after some playing around and goping back to 3.1.15, which showed the same problem, I found the headache is a missing package, it wants aumix-2.9.1-r6-nocona-64 installing and then setting your sound up in >multimedia>alsamixer audio mixer>f6 to select the sound card (mine is 0 HDA Intel PCH) and setting speaker or line volume up, it then works. Haven't checked what happens on a reboot or shutdown yet though.
EDIT: Just did a reboot and the sound now works Ok on startup , looks like barry unfortunately missed a package, not bad with 781 in the basic system.
EDIT2: Just found that a a/v dvd/cd in the drive doesn't show up as a disc symbol in the drive id line while a data one does.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:43 pm
by anilraj
Friends, I have problem with this version (and may be with 3.1.15 as well.)
1. Downloaded the image and copied to first partition (vfat with 650mb size) Partiion 2 is ext4 with size of 2gb. Set appropraiate flags on first partition. - All okay
2. Booted - all okay.
3. Did few configuratio chnages (Font size, network, boot services etc.) - All okay
4. Copied firefox and chromium from sites and put it under /files/downloads - All okay
5. Set the system to boot into RAM lockdown mode and unmount all partitons - All okay
6. Booted into ram lockdown mode - All okay
7-Now, I dont find firefox and Chromium (Saved under /files/downloads at step #4)
8. I see them on second partiion under /dev/sda2/files/downloads though.
9 Again copied them from /dev/sda2/files/downloads to /files/downloads and did lockdown-save - usng save icon.
Rebooted,
10 Again firefox and Chromium directories are missing from /files/downloads.--Not sure why
11. Created a directry under /files/ and did save - I see directory saved under /dev/sda2/files
12 Booted, again directory is missing from /files
Not sure, whats wrong. Seems saved directoryires not gettng loaded in ram lockdown mode..
Any help is appreciated.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:41 pm
by BologneChe
@anilraj
I made a test on my side with Firefox. I downloaded the file and then transferred everything to the / (parent file) file. I right clicked and chose Petget for the Firefox installation.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:27 pm
by anilraj
Hello BologneChe. Thank you for the reply.
I am not usng (Rather dont want to use petget) to install firefox/chromium. I am just downloading required files from respective sites and storing under /files/downloads. After that I do a save.
Save works-As I can see folders getting created at /dev/sda2/files/downloads.
After rebooot. I see it says loading saved session during boot process, but when it fully boots up, I dont see folders in /files/downloads.
Just to test it further, I created a directory under /files and did save-it works. It saves directory un /dev/sda2/. But after reboot, I cant see it under /files !! (Even though its there at /dev/sda2/files/)
Thank you
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:47 pm
by BologneChe
@anilraj
Indeed, I observe the same phenomenon after a test. I don't usually use this method (reboot and lock in RAM). I just use simple operation: all backup is on the USB key. Sorry for being unable to support you!
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:51 pm
by anilraj
No problem BologneChe. Seems, this started with 3.1.15. I thought that I am doing something wrong.
With 3.1.17, I checked quite a few things (Including install from scratch, changing permissons to 777 to directories and even storing these folder somewhereelse under /files!), but this continues. I guess, thre is some problem/bug.
Regards,
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:56 pm
by BarryK
Maybe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:01 am
Hey @scsijon ! Try:
1) right-click on the speaker in the panel in the lower right corner and select "Options" from the menu
2) In the "Output device" tab, click on the "Mute Audio" button to turn off the silence
A middle-button mouse click on the sound icon in the tray toggles mute/unmute.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:00 pm
by BarryK
Maybe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:18 am
I am very happy with innovations such as out-of-the-box OBS-studio and LiVES!
The system is very responsive and works well! Thanks a lot for the good job!
2 things upset me:
1) WiFi does not work on my laptop in EasyOS, while there are no WiFi problems in Fossa Pup and ScPup64. In VanillaPup64 from @dimkr, WiFi only works after the side of the laptop is turned off and then turned on the WiFi switch.
Here are the specifications of the device:
Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82577LM Gigabit Network Connection [8086:10ea] (rev 06)
• Kernel Driver: e1000e
• Memory Used: 172.00 KB
• Path: /lib/modules/5.10.83/kernel/drivers/net/ethernet/intel/e1000e/e1000e.ko
• Description: Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver
2) Unfortunately, I was never able to run OBS-studio on my laptop. But I'm trying to look for help here: viewtopic.php?t=4766 Oh... So close and so far
From Dmitry (Russia)
1)
e1000e is an ethernet driver, not wifi.
Try running dmesg in a terminal, maybe like this:
# dmesg > dmesg.log
...then look through the file for anything about wifi.
2)
I have replied on that forum thread.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:05 pm
by BarryK
hundido wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:51 pm
Did a fresh install on a USB using EasyDD from Fossapup9.5.
Booted on my Ryzen 5800x. Everything looked good until the screen went black.
I tried to reboot to fix broken video. The computer didn't see the drive for some reason this time. I gave up for now.
I had to reboot into Manjaro 2x because the first time I had a broken keyboard at the password screen. I have no idea if it was related, but that doesn't usually happen.
Do you know what video driver xorg was using?
Try boot to commandline, run xorgwizard, and choose "modesetting" driver. I have found that often fixes troublesome nouveau, radeon or intel drivers.
On one of my computers, it defaulted to the intel driver, but the screen freezes after a few minutes usage. Changed to modesetting and all was well.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:18 pm
by BarryK
anilraj wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:43 pm
Friends, I have problem with this version (and may be with 3.1.15 as well.)
1. Downloaded the image and copied to first partition (vfat with 650mb size) Partiion 2 is ext4 with size of 2gb. Set appropraiate flags on first partition. - All okay
2. Booted - all okay.
3. Did few configuratio chnages (Font size, network, boot services etc.) - All okay
4. Copied firefox and chromium from sites and put it under /files/downloads - All okay
5. Set the system to boot into RAM lockdown mode and unmount all partitons - All okay
6. Booted into ram lockdown mode - All okay
7-Now, I dont find firefox and Chromium (Saved under /files/downloads at step #4)
8. I see them on second partiion under /dev/sda2/files/downloads though.
9 Again copied them from /dev/sda2/files/downloads to /files/downloads and did lockdown-save - usng save icon.
Rebooted,
10 Again firefox and Chromium directories are missing from /files/downloads.--Not sure why
11. Created a directry under /files/ and did save - I see directory saved under /dev/sda2/files
12 Booted, again directory is missing from /files
Not sure, whats wrong. Seems saved directoryires not gettng loaded in ram lockdown mode..
Any help is appreciated.
Ah ha, yes, there was a change in 3.1.15, read this:
https://bkhome.org/news/202112/post-3113-tweaks.html
So if you put the files into /files/shared, they should be there when you bootup in lockdown running in ram mode.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:26 pm
by BarryK
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:46 pm
by BarryK
BarryK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:00 pm
Maybe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:18 am
I am very happy with innovations such as out-of-the-box OBS-studio and LiVES!
The system is very responsive and works well! Thanks a lot for the good job!
2 things upset me:
1) WiFi does not work on my laptop in EasyOS, while there are no WiFi problems in Fossa Pup and ScPup64. In VanillaPup64 from @dimkr, WiFi only works after the side of the laptop is turned off and then turned on the WiFi switch.
Here are the specifications of the device:
Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82577LM Gigabit Network Connection [8086:10ea] (rev 06)
• Kernel Driver: e1000e
• Memory Used: 172.00 KB
• Path: /lib/modules/5.10.83/kernel/drivers/net/ethernet/intel/e1000e/e1000e.ko
• Description: Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver
2) Unfortunately, I was never able to run OBS-studio on my laptop. But I'm trying to look for help here: viewtopic.php?t=4766 Oh... So close and so far
From Dmitry (Russia)
1)
e1000e is an ethernet driver, not wifi.
Try running dmesg in a terminal, maybe like this:
# dmesg > dmesg.log
...then look through the file for anything about wifi.
2)
I have replied on that forum thread.
You posted here:
viewtopic.php?p=45736#p45736
what wifi kernel driver you have.
Has iwlwifi loaded successfully? Run "lsmod" in a terminal to find out. If not, run "dmesg | grep -i firmware" to see if the kernel reports missing firmware.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:27 am
by Maybe
BarryK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:46 pm
BarryK wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:00 pm
Maybe wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:18 am
I am very happy with innovations such as out-of-the-box OBS-studio and LiVES!
The system is very responsive and works well! Thanks a lot for the good job!
2 things upset me:
1) WiFi does not work on my laptop in EasyOS, while there are no WiFi problems in Fossa Pup and ScPup64. In VanillaPup64 from @dimkr, WiFi only works after the side of the laptop is turned off and then turned on the WiFi switch.
Here are the specifications of the device:
Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82577LM Gigabit Network Connection [8086:10ea] (rev 06)
• Kernel Driver: e1000e
• Memory Used: 172.00 KB
• Path: /lib/modules/5.10.83/kernel/drivers/net/ethernet/intel/e1000e/e1000e.ko
• Description: Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Driver
2) Unfortunately, I was never able to run OBS-studio on my laptop. But I'm trying to look for help here: viewtopic.php?t=4766 Oh... So close and so far
From Dmitry (Russia)
1)
e1000e is an ethernet driver, not wifi.
Try running dmesg in a terminal, maybe like this:
# dmesg > dmesg.log
...then look through the file for anything about wifi.
2)
I have replied on that forum thread.
You posted here:
viewtopic.php?p=45736#p45736
what wifi kernel driver you have.
Has iwlwifi loaded successfully? Run "lsmod" in a terminal to find out. If not, run "dmesg | grep -i firmware" to see if the kernel reports missing firmware.
Network controller [0280]: Intel Corporation Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 [8086:4238] (rev 35)
• Kernel Driver: iwlwifi
Code: Select all
# dmesg | gpep -i firmware
ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS OSI (Linux) query ignored
psmouse serio2: trackpoint: IBM TrackPoint firmware: 0xee, buttons: 3/3
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-6.uco de failed with error -2 12.194050)
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi 6000-5.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-4.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: no suitable firmware found!
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: check git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/ke rnel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:28 pm
by BarryK
Maybe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:27 am
Code: Select all
# dmesg | gpep -i firmware
ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS OSI (Linux) query ignored
psmouse serio2: trackpoint: IBM TrackPoint firmware: 0xee, buttons: 3/3
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-6.uco de failed with error -2 12.194050)
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi 6000-5.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-4.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: no suitable firmware found!
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: check git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/ke rnel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git
So, you will need to search the internet and find one of those files. The kernel tried the -6 file, not there, so tried -5, finally -4. So any one of those should do the trick.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum that has collected lots of firmware.
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:17 am
by scsijon
BarryK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:28 pm
Maybe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:27 am
Code: Select all
# dmesg | gpep -i firmware
ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS OSI (Linux) query ignored
psmouse serio2: trackpoint: IBM TrackPoint firmware: 0xee, buttons: 3/3
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-6.uco de failed with error -2 12.194050)
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi 6000-5.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-4.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: no suitable firmware found!
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: check git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/ke rnel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git
So, you will need to search the internet and find one of those files. The kernel tried the -6 file, not there, so tried -5, finally -4. So any one of those should do the trick.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum that has collected lots of firmware.
It's a non-free driver, debian has it in firmware-nonfree_20190114.orig.tar.xz
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:02 am
by BarryK
scsijon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:17 am
BarryK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:28 pm
Maybe wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:27 am
Code: Select all
# dmesg | gpep -i firmware
ACPI: [Firmware Bug]: BIOS OSI (Linux) query ignored
psmouse serio2: trackpoint: IBM TrackPoint firmware: 0xee, buttons: 3/3
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-6.uco de failed with error -2 12.194050)
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi 6000-5.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Direct firmware load for iwlwifi-6000-4.uco de failed with error -2
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: no suitable firmware found!
iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: check git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/ke rnel/git/firmware/linux-firmware.git
So, you will need to search the internet and find one of those files. The kernel tried the -6 file, not there, so tried -5, finally -4. So any one of those should do the trick.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum that has collected lots of firmware.
It's a non-free driver, debian has it in firmware-nonfree_20190114.orig.tar.xz
I discovered that iwlwifi-6000-4.ucode is available via the petget package manager.
Click on "petget" on the desktop, then do a search for "linux-firmware", after installation, you will find the firmware in /lib/firmware
Catch-22 situation, you need internet access to do this! So you will have to be running on a different distro to do this. You can also grab it directly:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/easyos/amd64/ ... all.tar.xz
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:07 am
by Maybe
BarryK wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:02 am
scsijon wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 12:17 am
BarryK wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:28 pm
So, you will need to search the internet and find one of those files. The kernel tried the -6 file, not there, so tried -5, finally -4. So any one of those should do the trick.
There is a thread somewhere on this forum that has collected lots of firmware.
It's a non-free driver, debian has it in firmware-nonfree_20190114.orig.tar.xz
I discovered that iwlwifi-6000-4.ucode is available via the petget package manager.
Click on "petget" on the desktop, then do a search for "linux-firmware", after installation, you will find the firmware in /lib/firmware
Catch-22 situation, you need internet access to do this! So you will have to be running on a different distro to do this. You can also grab it directly:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/easyos/amd64/ ... all.tar.xz
Hooray! Happened! I did as you suggested and WiFi is working! Thank you @BarryK very much for finding a solution and helping!
From Dmitry (Russia)
Re: EasyOS 3.1.17 released
Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:17 pm
by BarryK