Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

I have written an article Installing Puppy Linux and put it in my website but I am not sure what to do with it. It needs more work. I am interested in comments and suggestions and especially corrections.

I like it. Lots of work went in to it and I will read it over thoroughly, and help out if I see anything to add or subtract.

Suggestion:
The difference between frugal installs and full installs is not only about compressed or uncompressed data and maybe differences in speed and/or RAM usage.

Though i never did a full install, IMO the most important difference is the use of layered file system, respectively the ability to load and unload SFS program packages and the option not to save a session.

Please read more about it here: viewtopic.php?p=12074#p12074

There are two ways to install a Puppy; Frugal or Full.

do not say anything about full installs.
Puppy Linux has stopped trying to support full installs and all new or newer versions, are designed to work as a frugal or live install.
Some features only work in a frugal or live install.

A live install is burning the iso image to a CD/DVD or USB stick.
Basically, all the files in the iso are placed on the CD/DVD or USB stick.
All files needed to boot it are there.

A Frugal install is similar with all the files in a folder.
But a separate boot loader, added to drive, is needed to boot everything, on the drive.
The boot loader in the iso, is not setup to boot frugal installs.

bigpup wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:15 pm

do not say anything about full installs.
Puppy Linux has stopped trying to support full installs and all new or newer versions, are designed to work as a frugal or live install.
Some features only work in a frugal or live install.

A live install is burning the iso image to a CD/DVD or USB stick.
Basically, all the files in the iso are placed on the CD/DVD or USB stick.
All files needed to boot it are there.

A Frugal install is similar with all the files in a folder.
But a separate boot loader, added to drive, is needed to boot everything, on the drive.
The boot loader in the iso, is not setup to boot frugal installs.

I won't say much about full installs but since they are mentioned in many other articles I think it is better to say something like what you say here so that people know that full installs are not useful, at least not for beginners.

Hi Sam,

Take a look at this topic: viewtopic.php?t=4681

if you download the ISO and run it you'll find find multiple howto documents on installing Puppy. They are illustrated and are click-by-click. Feel free to use all or any part of them. Currently they only cover the use of a save file since that will work with USB, MBR internal, UEFI internal, and dual boot with Windows installs. Save folders will be addressed in the next release.

wizard

rockedge wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:06 pm

I like it. Lots of work went in to it and I will read it over thoroughly, and help out if I see anything to add or subtract.

Thank you. Yes it took more time than I expected originally.

I think the thing I need help with the most is the setup during the first shutdown. Much of that I do not understand and I think it would help anyone using a Puppy for the first time to have some help understanding what to do.

wizard wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:22 pm

Hi Sam,

Take a look at this topic: viewtopic.php?t=4681

if you download the ISO and run it you'll find find multiple howto documents on installing Puppy. They are illustrated and are click-by-click. Feel free to use all or any part of them. Currently they only cover the use of a save file since that will work with USB, MBR internal, UEFI internal, and dual boot with Windows installs. Save folders will be addressed in the next release.

wizard

I will look at all that. I intended to attempt to review relevant material after I had done as much as I have done using the very limited experience I have. An important requirement is to attempt to provide answers to the questions I have had so far and I have at least captured the important ones.

I think the thing I need help with the most is the setup during the first shutdown. Much of that I do not understand and I think it would help anyone using a Puppy for the first time to have some help understanding what to do.

Often familiarity, knowing to much, is a handicap when writing howto's. You are a great candidate since you will ask the right questions a new user will have. The link above and it's help files should answer many of your questions about first shutdown.

Thanks for promoting Puppy on your site.

wizard

wizard wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:32 pm

I think the thing I need help with the most is the setup during the first shutdown. Much of that I do not understand and I think it would help anyone using a Puppy for the first time to have some help understanding what to do.

Often familiarity, knowing to much, is a handicap when writing howto's. You are a great candidate since you will ask the right questions a new user will have. The link above and it's help files should answer many of your questions about first shutdown.

Thanks for promoting Puppy on your site.

wizard

Thank you. I intend to also upload the article eventually to C# Corner. It will get plenty of exposure there.

HerrBert wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 4:53 pm

IMO the most important difference is the use of layered file system, respectively the ability to load and unload SFS program packages and the option not to save a session.

yes, the usability of a layered filesystem is the big "why" some of us, if not most, use puppy/dogs etc.

wizard wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:32 pm

Often familiarity, knowing to much, is a handicap when writing howto's. You are a great candidate since you will ask the right questions a new user will have.
wizard

+1

and thanks for writing on your site about puppy

Sam Hobbs wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:53 am

I have written an article Installing Puppy Linux and put it in my website but I am not sure what to do with it. It needs more work. I am interested in comments and suggestions and especially corrections.

"Installing Puppy Linux to a Dedicated Partition" perhaps would be a better title?

After all, one can do a frugal install to a folder on the the C: drive also.

Sam Hobbs wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:53 am

I have written an article Installing Puppy Linux and put it in my website but I am not sure what to do with it. It needs more work. I am interested in comments and suggestions and especially corrections.

Yes I also like your article (a lot) and particularly because it illustrated a typical Windows hard drive layout and documents secure boot installation. Nice and focussed.

williwaw wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:36 pm

Sam Hobbs wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:53 am

I have written an article Installing Puppy Linux and put it in my website but I am not sure what to do with it. It needs more work. I am interested in comments and suggestions and especially corrections.

"Installing Puppy Linux to a Dedicated Partition" perhaps would be a better title?

After all, one can do a frugal install to a folder on the the C: drive also.

Yes, thank you. That is better.

Except first I want to be sure that there is enough unique about doing this for a partition as for a thumb drive. Could it work to generalize the article for thumb drives to? Depending on how much of a difference there is I might or might not want to do that.

Sam, here are my notes so far on your article:

lickgrub.cfg can be edited by notepad in Windows

Although you can use lick to install to a new partition, one of Lick's primary advantages is letting it put the Puppy files in a folder on the Windows partition, no repartitioning required and no issue with creating a larger save file.

I fear your suggestion of using a 500mb partition with only a 55mb save file will result in a lot of disappointed and discouraged users. One gig would be the smallest I would attempt and even that doesn't allow for save file backup without some manipulation.

wizard

wizard wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:17 pm

Although you can use lick to install to a new partition, one of Lick's primary advantages is letting it put the Puppy files in a folder on the Windows partition, no repartitioning required and no issue with creating a larger save file.

Are there other Linux distributions (not Puppies) that that can be done with?

Sam Hobbs wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:06 am

wizard wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:17 pm

Although you can use lick to install to a new partition, one of Lick's primary advantages is letting it put the Puppy files in a folder on the Windows partition, no repartitioning required and no issue with creating a larger save file.

Are there other Linux distributions (not Puppies) that that can be done with?

Apparently yes. noryb009, lick creator, explained to me how to boot weedoglinux distros with it so I imagine debiandogs and so on could be used to. Unfortunately I can't find post where it was explained and didn't get round to trying it cos was on machine that had no Windows on it at the time.

I found this for FatDog: http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... -lick.html

Wiak knows more than I do about other distros. Puppy is unique in many ways and it's ability to "coexist" on a host operating system is one of them. Other operating systems install thousands of files to an internal drive and must have a suitable file system to support them. Puppy on the other hand only installs a hand full of files and can run on many host files systems. The few Puppy files are containers, like ZIP files, and when Puppy boots the contents are loaded into ram and it runs totally from ram so it doesn't care about the host drives file system. Lick was built around Puppy's unique structure.

When you use Lick to install Puppy to a Windows partition, it just makes a standard folder and puts a few Puppy files in it, that's all, no other changes except loading the grub boot loader.

wizard

wizard wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:15 am

When you use Lick to install Puppy to a Windows partition, it just makes a standard folder and puts a few Puppy files in it, that's all, no other changes except loading the grub boot loader.

Thank you. I believe you that few other Linux distributions are like that. I thought I read otherwise but I will assume you are correct.

I have updated the beginning of the article. The following is an excerpt of relevant parts.

There are two ways to install a Puppy; Frugal or Full. Puppy developers are beginning to avoid supporting Full installs and Puppy enthusiasts use Full installs much less than Frugal installs so as a beginner use a Frugal install only. A Frugal install can do nearly everything an equivalent Full install can do.

There are many distributions that are Puppy distributions; see the list in the website. This article is about FossaPup64 but much of the following can probably be used for any Puppy. A FossaPup64 Puppy and many other Puppies can fit in a 500 MB partition, but only for educational purposes. A practical Puppy that can be used for more than experimentation needs to be in a partition of at least 1 GB. Read below about how the Save File works to understand. [Except currently I have not yet written that part.]

You can multi-boot with many OS's, but it usually requires re-partitioning. Some "live" ISO's can be booted directly by grub, but the catch comes when you want persistence, the ability to save changes, documents, etc. between sessions.

wizard

I think the thing I need help with the most is the setup during the first shutdown.
Much of that I do not understand.
I think it would help anyone using a Puppy for the first time to have some help understanding what to do.

Basic operation of Puppy Linux as a live or frugal install.
On first boot all of the Puppy OS is loaded into RAM.
Also a ramdisk is made in RAM to hold any changes, additions, settings, configurations, etc....

On first shutdown, Puppy is designed to offer the option to put everything, in the ramdisk, in a storage location, where the contents can be saved.
This location is a save file or save folder, that you place on some drive, that will store it.
The save is the storage location, Puppy will use, for anything you do, that needs to be saved.

A save file, is a special container file, that is made a specific, set size.
Usually, you make the size bigger than you need, so it will still have room to add stuff, into it.
Save files, can be placed in any drive location, of any format. (ntfs, fat32, ext 2, 3, or 4, etc.....)

A save folder, is just like any folder.
It will change size, as needed, to hold what is in it.
Save folders, can only be made, on a Linux formatted location. (ext 2 ,3, or 4)

When you do the first shutdown, you are asked to make or not make a save.
You are asked where to put it, on what drive, and what partition, on that drive.
If the partition format, is not the type you can make a save folder on it.
You will only be offered to make a save file.
Then it asks how big do you want to make the save file. (make it so it has some usable free space, to always be able to use)

If the location will allow ability to make a save folder. (save files can be made any location)
You will be offered to make a save file or a save folder.
You can choose folder and a save folder is made.

Now when you next boot.
The save will be used and all the stuff in it, will be part of the running Puppy OS.
Do anything to change Puppy and it gets stored in the save.

Note:
Best to do little stuff, like settings and configurations, on first boot.
Shutdown and make a save.
Now boot using the save.
That frees up some RAM, that you do not need to use for a ramdisk.
Also, if you make any changes, the save gives you permanent storage location.

Sam Hobbs wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:53 am

I have written an article Installing Puppy Linux and put it in my website but I am not sure what to do with it. It needs more work. I am interested in comments and suggestions and especially corrections.

The UEFI Secure boot problem can actually be solved and not require a workaround by changing 'OS type' (Which may or not be implemented, thereby presenting a problem!)
Most UEFI implementations can have their database be modified (aka allow list/db) via the BIOS, linux tools, or if no other choice, via Windows/OEM itself (or a combination of all methods).
Now, you have a choice. Enroll in a MOK (there may be an option to enroll so, should there be a Security Violation), or add in a certificate file that will match the hash of the to be booted .efi binary, into db (allow list)
An example of such is with a Surface Pro 2.
1. Disable Secure Boot before installing Puppy Linux, and setting up UEFI Secure Boot. (You might have to wipe out all the Secure Boot keys possibly)
2. Use KeyTool after installing Puppy Linux, and then setting rEFInd as the default EFI binary, and enroll certificate files in db and KEK. I additionally enrolled the unsigned KeyTool binary into MOK, so I could access it again should I wish.
3. Reboot into Windows, use the provided UEFI CA toolkit to enroll in Microsoft's PK and KEK. The PK is essentially the master key and sets UEFI into User mode, thereby Secure Boot will become active and enforced. As well, any entry that will be added into dbx or db while Secure Boot is active and enforced must be signed with the KEK, which then in turn must match the PK.

UEFI Secure Boot terms:
PK: Platform Key. This key is responsible for enabling/resetting Secure Boot. When PK has a key entered, it will enter User mode, and enforce Secure Boot. If there is no such key, it will enter Setup mode, and essentially be the equivalent of Secure Boot being off. There can only be ONE. In order to update the PK, it must be signed with the current active PK. (In some cases, even with the PK non-present, trying to insert a PK will fail.) As well, it must be an X509 key.
KEK: Key Exchange Key. It is used to update the database or sign binaries for valid execution. There can be multiple keys. In order to update while Secure Boot is enforced, it must be signed with the PK. As well, the key must be X509 or RSA2048 key.
db: Signature Database. This is basically an allow list, and enables execution for signed binaries that match a entry. It can contain keys, signatures, or hashes. In order to update db, it must be signed with the KEK, in turn signed with the PK.
dbx: Forbidden Signatures Database. This is a deny list, and takes priority over db. This can also contain the same mixture as db. Do note unsigned binaries will be refused execution when Secure Boot is active.
MOK: Not a requirement in UEFI implementations, but this enables users to generate a signature in order to validate EFI binaries. This for example can be used to run locally-compiled kernels that don't match in the db. This does present a risk if you are tricked into adding an entry for malware.

Hi Sam,

I think your content is a good start and doesn't completely duplicate what is at https://puppylinux.com/install.html

Suggestions

Give Incentive
I think it would be nice to start off explaining to new users wy they should install Puppy Linux. At the https://puppylinux.com main page there are some overview references that might be helpful. For example, your web page can start off with the following

Puppy Linux and its derivatives are fast, lightweight Linux operating system that can even run on older hardware that other OSs can't. Puppy Linux is also a great operating system for users new to Linux to get comfortably up and running.

Puppy is ready to use
You wrote

Puppies can fit in a 500 MB partition, but only for educational purposes.

JASpup's X-Tahr is about 230 MB, and is pretty much feature full for a typical transitioning Windows user.

Sam Hobbs wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:00 pm

Could it work to generalize the article for thumb drives to? Depending on how much of a difference there is I might or might not want to do that.

yes, I would not think it matters whether it is a HD or USB, as long as a partition is suitable for a frugal install, although one typically partitions a USB for use with puppies, where as a dual boot with windows where the frugal lives in a folder on the C: drive,

the distinction between tutorials would be when the drive needs no further partitioning or formatting. The use of a partitioning tool is not recommended for beginners if accidents to the C: drive are likely and could means a loss of data in the windows install. I cannot recall if you shrank C: drive to create the 472 MB ntfs partition, or whether it was unused space, but it is possible to shrink your windows C: with care, a little experience with partitioning tools and some defraging. I personally avoid this option, especially with someones else's windows and just dedicate a different disk to puppy.

snoring_cat wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:25 am

Code: Select all

Puppies can fit in a 500 MB partition, but only for educational purposes.

JASpup's X-Tahr is about 230 MB, and is pretty much feature full for a typical transitioning Windows user.

All credit to @rg66, but my customization is about the same size, except that it looks newer via a borrowed background and installed gtk themes, and it runs current browsers.

X-Tahr comes with Light (Firefox 48), but a newbie could easily go with a current Pale Moon.

Windows convert in 32-bit I would suggest it first.

I have yet to run a full install but have been imagining it a better way to create a remaster.

Install it, set it up the way you like, then squash.

Sounds like it might work.

I have moved on for now at least. I have submitted my article to the C# Corner web site; see Installing Puppy Linux To A Dedicated Partition.