Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

I hijacked dimkr's "Vanilla Dpup" thread with my post about ISO files, in response to a post extolling the virtues of ISO files:

viewtopic.php?p=43658#p43658

Then I posted on the topic to my blog:

https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired.html

Which resulted in lots of replies in that thread.

The feedback is good, as well, I have received emails. I intend to soon append to my blog post.

Anyway, as it is inappropriate to be discussing this topic ongoing in the "Vanilla Dpup" thread, I started this new thread.

The topic may have burned itself out, but anyway, I intend to append more information based on feedback, to my blog post, and invite any further comment here.

Lo-tech: I would argue no while conceiving of it dichotomously as a format created for optical media yet not limited by their sizes.

The primary reasons are convention/familiarity and usefulness. When I use your remaster tool do I create an .iso? No, but not before second-guessing. I did when I started.

We generally know what .iso are and what to do with them. The archives appear to have integrity.

What's that disk? It's this .iso.

I'm on my 32 Atom netbook at the moment, and the only 64 (never booted) .iso on the HD is 317 MB, LxPupSc20 - cake for an .iso. Perhaps a CD's storage limits are a healthy distribution size constraint incentive, even if they aren't being used for disks?

My biggest problem with .iso at the moment is developers trying to boot them instead of having us write, or extract files that typically warrant modification.

No.

As pointed out, a clever way to judge image size. Most DVD's will go to 4.7Gb, CD to 700Mb.
Besides, ISO allows inspection. We don' want that do we???

Hi @BarryK

BarryK wrote: ↑Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:57 pm

... invite any further comment here.

In your depiction of the ISO format, you focus on the structural layout and an apparent hatred for the format. Maybe hatred is not the right word, but, a strong lean away from anything ISO, proclaiming a death to DVD that has NOT occurred in desktop-server sales in the current world. DVDs are only removed from Laptops in last 2 years as the manufacturers steer us to Tablet systems. There is nothing wrong with your view, of course, as we ALL have biases. I have written on this forum about my findings (aka bias/hatred) of USB sticks performance based upon my testing with tools in both Linux and Windows.

What I feel is missed in some of what you share, almost completely, is the changes that have occurred over the past decade in services that make it easy to run LIVE systems with neither the need to install the live system from its "SHIPPED" format while placing and using 'persistence' on local writable media if the user chooses nor any need to extract contents and create/recreate boot stanzas.

Today, thanks to the older Puppy "ISObooter", as well as SG2D and Ventoy, PUPs-DOGs today can boot directly from the ISO's format providing ALL of the 'traditional' persistence mechanism. Booting this way is for all practical purposes, a Frugal without Frugal setup requirements which continue to get users of all sorts in trouble.

Your argument intends to both discourage and diminish ISO use with NO offering of a replacement NOR any offering of an alternative manner of running your (OR HIS) images without first having to deal with expansion of your IMG offering to some designated unit after download, before any use can be achieved.

This filetype, that you take aim at, used with the 3 products mentioned above, exist to diminish user troubles in using PUPPY Linux. Here are some simple facts for the known techniques that the ISO file boot advantage that has become easy for PUP community who choose to use it. Current ISO files:

• Allow PUPs and DOGs to boot directly from the ISO file

• There is no user manipulation of the ISO file for any reason to boot to desktop

• It provides the same operation as any Frugal installation (and yes, a simple PUP parm at boot time also gives complete flexibility)

• It adds security to the base system as the ISO file is a non-writable format

• Booting the ISO file directly removes device needs

• It provides booting without disturbing or touching the existing system devices/drives

• The time from download to desktop is shorter than ANY techniques known, presently, making this the most productive method in time saving to any user

There's more...

In the case of @dimkr, he uses QEMU extensively where you do not. So for him and the audience he seeks is one for experience dev/users vs beginners. While your distros expect everyone to be a user.

You also ignore the very FACT that many of the user issues we see. are requesting for help to acceptably write either an IMG or an ISO to media. Yes, we see this over and over whether they are trying to convert the format to a device (USB/HDD/DVD) or in incorrect copying of files for Frugal use to media. This is a consistent problem we all have seen and helped others with. BUT via the current direct ISO boot methods now available to the community, those who use them are not requesting help as it is no longer needed via these direct boot methods discussed in Puppyland over the past couple years.

For the past years I have used 1st ISObooter by @rcrsn51, then SG2D on GIT, and now ALSO Ventoy, while assisting PUP users to understand that they can boot their PUPs & DOGs via a mere download of the ISO file to a folder and boot! No media issues and NO NEED FOR bother forum assistance in their attempts to run their PUPs-DOGs.

And for any upgrades or new distros out of WoofCE, those ISOs boot directly after download of the ISO file to the respective USB folder.

This manner of booting, for persistence systems, is ideal for several reasons:

• MOST IMPORTANTLY, this is a Frugal existence!!!

• There is NO need to redirect the ISO-IMG to a media after download

• The downloaded format is preserved thru the life of the system unchanged

• This leads to the base sys that is instantly reverted via pfix=ram

• Persistence is manage as it always has been

• Media issues are gone, Need for forum assistance with media is gone.

• The booting USB/SDcard used is merely "the house" (the folder) for all of the ISO/IMG presented for user selection.

Your efforts do NOT address this type of running. I am hopeful that you will or have taken the time to review each of these boot methods that boot ISO files directly to evaluate whether you conclude any productivity gains that result to the user(s). I personally see these use to booting as making it "all-too-easy" for new-experience users to get and boot any modern PUP-DOG presented on the Puppy forum.

The ISO file, in the way it is used via today's environment and in my discussion is merely a file container...much like IMG file is a container for a distro. The tools mentioned that present the ISO file to the user allows setup on the processor to boot the file as a LIVE operation running in RAM as if it was installed on some local media.

Its simple to test within 5 mins for anyone (SG2D)

1. take a USB

2. Write SG2D to a USB stick

3. Add any or as many of today's modern PUP-DOGs ISO files to the /BOOTISOS folder on the stick you desire

4. Boot the stick

5. Select any of the ISO files you added

The PUP-DOG ISOs found will boot!

Is simple to test within 5 mins for anyone (Ventoy)

1. take a USB

2. Write Ventoy to a USB stick

3. Add any or as many of todays's modern PUP-DOGs ISO files to the /BOOTISOS folder on the stick you desire (I strongly encourage anyone to add the SG2D ISO file to the folder as well, AS, if there is ANY BOOT issue trying to boot PUPs via Ventoy, the SG2D ISO will boot any PUP that exhibited the issue)

4. Boot the stick

5. Select any of the ISO-IMG files you added

It will boot!

It cannot be more simple for users, new-experienced, INCLUDED but not limited to YOU or I to get to forum distros for either test or production without disturbing anything on the existing system! Also, these methods do nothing to change the current system(s) that may be present on the system's permanent drives.

Your blog and post seems to bring a message that ISOs no longer have useful purpose. I trust that you might, thru discovery, have a "rethink" of some benefit of the ISO format in the forum community especially in how the PUP-DOGs are booting today to allow the technology to use the ISO file format to easily get a user to desktop in seconds after download.

My personal observation seems (and I am sure that I am probably wrong on this observation) that @Dimkr and you intend to discourage use of these ISO boot methods. Those ISO boot method's ONLY "Robinhood crime" is that they remove steps to be a true Frugal usage..."No manipulation of an ISO or IMG to boot to a desktop to test/use all of the distro's functionality." Why is that a bad approach to use and met with such disdain is beyond me for a rational explanation?

I will offer this: When DVDs are no longer offered in ANY PCs manufactured in the world, I would guess, by that time, you or someone(s) would have presented a direct file boot solution for some format that would be appropriate for the times. And, I would assume that it could/should have general applicability to boot the current PUPs and DOGs container files as time moves forward.

This post is my view of the file container familiarly called 'ISO and IMG'; I do NOT look at this as a device, rather as a container.

I am not trying to save a format; rather, I am trying to show the benefit we have experienced in the use of the ISO format shown in the forum along with the testing that has been accomplished.

My view may not be useful and may not be 'totally' accurate, so treat it as a MERE VIEW! Further my view, here, must NOT be looked at as any attempt to diminish the work of ANY developer in this community; it does not.

Looking forward

8Geee wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:27 am

No.

As pointed out, a clever way to judge image size. Most DVD's will go to 4.7Gb, CD to 700Mb.
Besides, ISO allows inspection. We don' want that do we???

Come to think of it, a single sfs file allows easy inspection too (via sunburst's filemnt utility used in Pups, Dogs most everywhere). Easy to create with standard mksquashfs utility too.

Making an iso quite a bit of an effort comparatively, and a bootable iso moreso, and a bootable BIOS and/or EFI iso moreso again, and a Ventoy or SG2D bootable variant a bit more effort yet again. This gets to be a lot of effort for the simple (not proven I'd say) user ease-of-use.

That's really my issue with iso creation - I am lazy and can't be bothered; so do it so rarely that each time is a painful re-reminding-myself learning experience that I never really quite master (much worse when Ventoy AND SG2D involved - sorry Clarity, but really not convinced that mechanism is so very worth while and, no, I don't think anyone needs more convincing - has already been plenty of sponsoring of these mechanisms such that we certainly all know about them now - However, we have done our best in that regard though personally I cannot promise to always support the method since it required some initrd/init code bloat in WDL, but the capability, as is, will likely keep working anyway now).

Despite above, I still like simple iso format (forget making it bootable usually though - don't require that); the xorriso or similar commandline isn't too hard to record in my cherrytree notebook (my remaining working memory) and thus no effort to make simple isos in that manner, though, really, supplying a distro as a single sfs (containing all the actual sfs, vmlinux, initrd and so on component parts) would be easier indeed.

@wiak
Supplying the files as a single SFS sounds good...at first! What happens when a potential new
user downloads "wiak-edge-pup.sfs" (just an example, not a real puppy) using the operating
system most commonly used on desktop/laptop computers (MS Windows)? Oh sure, they may
have 7zip installed...but 7zip doesn't handle SFS! The new user WILL be turned off by this,
because even Windows has tools to make use of ISO.
So, the notion of distribution via single file does have merit. The bigger question is the format.
Myself, I think a ZIP format would be good, even a self-extracting EXE of the ZIP, which could
include everything needed to extract the files to target, run a batch file or shell script, and
voila, bootable media created. Or, just extract the ZIP to a directory on the target drive and
voila...frugal installation done, ready to edit the bootloader configuration files.
Wiz

ps---wouldn't even have to be a new user to experience problems...what happens when a
Puppy user, booted into Bionic, Slacko etc. downloads wiak-edge-pup.sfs...oh, yeah, right...
the sfs triggers the sfs-load, which if not careful would load that sfs into the current running
Puppy. Would it work or more likely result in crash /lock of the system.

@Clarity :-

No need to get your panties in a bunch..! ISOs aren't going anywhere, anytime soon.

And please; will you QUIT WITH THE CONSTANT ADVERTISING FOR SG2D & VENTOY!! I've lost track of the threads in which you keep banging on about these two items; I think they've had quite enough publicity already. How you've had the cheek to privately bombard/target our community's founder with PMs/emails about this stuff is beyond me. It's little wonder "gcmartin" got the push from the old forum with this sort of behaviour.

BK would not have made your behaviour public in this regard if he wasn't already getting really annoyed with you!

viewtopic.php?p=43667#p43667

(And before you even say it, no; I don't want to hear it, Clarity. I'm not interested in your "defence" on this subject. The one thing that will satisfy not only me, but several others, too, is for you to DROP the subject.....immediately. You CAN have too much of a 'good thing', y'know?)

No reason you can't link to some of your existing threads/posts on the subject.

Please be aware; be very careful from now on. This is your first public warning; you'll get a total of two.....then that will be your lot. You're being observed, pretty closely I might add. Your behaviour will determine your future status on this forum.

Thanks.

Mike.

Wiz57 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:45 pm

ps---wouldn't even have to be a new user to experience problems...what happens when a
Puppy user, booted into Bionic, Slacko etc. downloads wiak-edge-pup.sfs...oh, yeah, right...
the sfs triggers the sfs-load, which if not careful would load that sfs into the current running
Puppy. Would it work or more likely result in crash /lock of the system.

I don't see how downloading an sfs would 'trigger' sfs-load. That's a right-click user choice, and if they were so determined to sfs-load wiak-edge-pup.sfs (an unlikely sounding sfs) then, yeah, I have no idea whether that would speed up their system big time or not...

But yes, zip file a nice way to provide distro, though I'd be delighted to have tar.whatever_compression instead (not being a Windows user or caring about them one way or the other). The only thing is, I'm not sure if clicking on a zip file also allows a user to simply view the contents the way clicking on an iso or an sfs file does in most Pups and Dogs that use sunburst's filemount facility. I will have to try it but currently in rockedge's latest KLV-airedale first alpha release and don't thing filemnt is configured on this yet. Will test later.

EDIT: I think I should mention that I believe there is a problem with zip format though in that I think it does not preserve file ownership and user permissions (fine if everything is owned by root I suppose).

Hi BarryK,

Pros and Cons of ISO/IMG
ISO Pros

• Sometimes I have to work on an OLD laptop that has a CD and can't boot from USB

• Personally, it is easy for me to just copy off vmlinuz, initrd and SFS files to add that OS to my already running grub/syslinux menu

• ISO files can be directly laoded from Grub (I haven't tried a multi-partition IMG)

• Easy to modify ISO contents

• ISO and it's filesystem are easily accessible on OSes like Wndows

IMG Cons

• It is difficult to mount individual partitions of a multi-partition IMG to copy off vmlinz, initrd and SFS files to add to my already running grub/syslinux menu

• Don't like having to format my flash drive to use EasyOS. If I have a 128GB flash drive with data, I don't want to have to worry about removing/losing that data

Direct Install Solution
I think that a different way of installing can be had by having a script wget down only vmlinuz/initrd/SFS files and then installng/creating into a grub config file. In this way

• Disk formatting not needed

• Scripts are small, editable, and work on Windows, Linux, Mac

• Easier to change out , say a small initrd file, without having to do an ISO/IMG overhaul

• Easier to add to a grub/syslinux entry into an already running Distribution's (such as OpenSuse)

For the Future
If packaging is still wanted, instead of using IMG or ISO, maybe switch to QCOW (as long as drivers are made available for Windows/Linux/Mac/grub). A benefit is that there is built in encryption, dynamically growing filesystem, compression and read-write capability. QCOW is understood by virtualization applications such as QEMU. you could if wanted easily rsync, make OS upgrades and possibly build in a save file. If people wanted, they could throw in a devx file, AppImages, etc. as well

Everything can fit into one QCOW partition. If need be swap can be a swap image file in the QCOW partition just like Puppy already uses swapfile images.

snoring_cat wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:09 pm

IMG Cons

• It is difficult to mount individual partitions of a multi-partition IMG to copy off vmlinz, initrd and SFS files to add to my already running grub/syslinux menu

Wrong. In EasyOS, you just click on the image file and it opens up, and you can copy out vmlinuz, etc.

In the pups you can do this with sfs and iso files, it seems that pups you use have not implemented it for image files. That is just an implementation detail, that can easily be added to the pups.

• Don't like having to format my flash drive to use EasyOS. If I have a 128GB flash drive with data, I don't want to have to worry about removing/losing that data

Huh? That con does not make any sense. You don't have to write the image file to a usb stick if all that you want to do is extract its contents. As I stated, just click on the file.

I have appended to my blog post, based on feedback received so far:

https://bkhome.org/news/202112/why-iso-was-retired.html

Actually, I am rapidly losing interest in this discussion. I am up against those with entrenched viewpoints, and in many cases the feedback has been just plain ignorance.

If you want to keep the discussion going, and read clarity's rants, you are welcome. I'm heading off camping on the south coast, no phone signal even -- yay!

When I return, my tolerance should be restored.

It always seems to me like the die-hard fans of ISO images can be roughly divided into 3 groups:
1) Users of very old computers, probably with 32 bit CPUs and an optical drive
2) Tinkerers who install Puppy manually (like @snoring_cat), probably using an already installed boot loader
3) Users with a multi-distro setup comprised of ISO images (like @Clarity), or generally, users who use some tool that accepts ISO images as its input

If group 1 is best served by old Puppy versions, and if every new Puppy release includes an ISO images in the same format as before, they should be happy. These users are going to stick to the old format.
Group 2 will be happy once clicking an image will open the file manager, because they extract files from the image and don't use the image as a whole. Raw disk images are smaller, so these users can benefit from such a change.
Group 3 will be happy with an ISO image; many can use a different image format because the tool they stick with already supports it (for example, Etcher is equivalent to dd, and can handle raw disk images). Like members of group 2, most of these users will benefit from the change.

Making an iso quite a bit of an effort comparatively, and a bootable iso moreso, and a bootable BIOS and/or EFI iso moreso again

So, no one has made a simple script to do all of this for you?

Unless I totally do not understand the img concept.
Only thing I do not like about them.
To install to a USB. it has to totally re-partition and format the complete drive.
It is an image of a drive, correct?

With a USB stick, already partitioned and formatted, as they come, when you buy one. (1 partition format fat32)
Well, I can use a program like Frugalpup Installer.
Use ISO of any Puppy version.
Do a frugal install to the USB drive.
Then use Frugalpup Installer to install a boot loader to boot it.
Add another Puppy version using Frugalpup Installer.
Rerun the boot loader install, to add entry to boot the new install.

Right now I have one USB stick with 15 Puppy versions on it as frugal installs.
All booting form one boot menu.

Lick installer (exe program that will run in Windows), can be used to install Puppy as a frugal install, inside the C partition of Windows.
Make a boot menu entry to boot it, as well as entry to boot Windows.
Easy duel boot install to the internal drive of a computer.

Both of these Puppy specific installer programs are coded to use ISO of the Puppy version.
Now if both these programs, could do the same thing, using an image of the Puppy version.
Sure, just make images.

About the USB getting formatted to iso9660, if you use a Puppy iso.
Using dd command, to do the install, does that iso9660 format thing.
Sure, it makes a bootable USB, but no place to put a Puppy save on it.
Basically it makes the USB act like a iso image burned CD.

dimkr,

In all actuality, I don't mind if ISOs, IMGs or anything else is used. I wanted to give ideas for future development. I mainly use grub2config, grub4dos, grub and syslinux. However, I have have met Linux newbies that like to use Ventoy versus being locked into a specific OS's boot loader. When I am on the Puppy Linux IRC channel, I run into a lot of people that have many different Pupplet's on different USB flash drives. Hopefully we can address just using one flash drive. Prior to using virtualization, it was an inconvenience to test Trusty, Fossa and EasyOS by installing to different USBs (which newbies do)

So in a way, I deviated off of the topic of if ISO format should be retired. But back on topic, I do not know, so only provided my personal feedback to help BarryK in making any decisions.

bigpup wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:08 pm

To install to a USB. it has to totally re-partition and format the complete drive.
It is an image of a drive, correct?

You can find an example in https://github.com/vanilla-dpup/release ... _64-9.0.18.

gunzip and dd vanilladpup-9.0.18-ext4-2gb-bios.img.gz or vanilladpup-9.0.18-ext4-2gb-bios.uefi.gz to a flash drive, and it's ready. (Or just use something like Etcher).

After this initial flashing, you can edit the boot loader configuration and added another Puppy (by copying the SFSs, etc' to the partition), as you do today. Or, you can extract the files from the image and copy them to an existing flash drive, as you do today.

The images produce normal, writable partitions on the flash drive, and that should be pretty much the only difference in your particular use case.

snoring_cat wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:16 pm

Prior to using virtualization, it was an inconvenience to test Trusty, Fossa and EasyOS by installing to different USBs (which newbies do)

Virtualization is indeed a use case where ISO is most convenient. Pretty much all virtualization tools (VirtualBox, QEMU, etc') have a virtual optical drive and a virtual BIOS, so they can use Puppy's ISOs even without the UEFI support that makes them so bigger.

But for regular users and boot on physical hardware, this format is inconvenient for the reasons Barry has mentioned.

Point 1

BarryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:31 pm

snoring_cat wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:09 pm

IMG Cons

• It is difficult to mount individual partitions of a multi-partition IMG to copy off vmlinz, initrd and SFS files to add to my already running grub/syslinux menu

Wrong. In EasyOS, you just click on the image file and it opens up, and you can copy out vmlinuz, etc.

In the pups you can do this with sfs and iso files, it seems that pups you use have not implemented it for image files. That is just an implementation detail, that can easily be added to the pups.

Here is a scenario that addresses multi-partition mounting

fdisk  -l easy-3.1.11-amd64.img 
Disk easy-3.1.11-amd64.img: 1.26 GiB, 1343225856 bytes, 2623488 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0xfd2776a1

Device                 Boot   Start     End Sectors  Size Id Type
easy-3.1.11-amd64.img1 *       2048 1310719 1308672  639M ef EFI (FAT-12/16/32)
easy-3.1.11-amd64.img2      1310720 2621439 1310720  640M 83 Linux

root# mkdir /mnt/easy_part2
root# echo "512 * 1310720" | bc
671088640
root# mount -o ro,loop,offset=671088640 easy-3.1.11-amd64.img /mnt/easy_part2
root# ls /mnt/easy_part2/
lost+found

So I guess the real problem is me not knowing what the defined usage is for the 2nd partition, or if there is a potential that the boot partition not being the first partition.

Point 2

BarryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:31 pm

• Don't like having to format my flash drive to use EasyOS. If I have a 128GB flash drive with data, I don't want to have to worry about removing/losing that data

Huh? That con does not make any sense. You don't have to write the image file to a usb stick if all that you want to do is extract its contents. As I stated, just click on the file.

I was referring to documentation at the following:
https://easyos.org/install/easy-frugal- ... ation.html
https://easyos.org/install/how-to-write ... drive.html

gunzip --stdout easy-0.9.12-amd64.img.gz | dd of=/dev/sdb bs=1M
# sync

i should have been more clear that I was referencing what a typical user is told to do (format), versus the way that I do things. I apologize. My bullet points were meant to be taken stand alone, not linked together. So a typical user is told to reformat their flash drive, hopefully backing up it's contents before doing a dd.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:17 pm

bigpup wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:08 pm

To install to a USB. it has to totally re-partition and format the complete drive.
It is an image of a drive, correct?

You can find an example in https://github.com/vanilla-dpup/release ... _64-9.0.18.

gunzip and dd vanilladpup-9.0.18-ext4-2gb-bios.img.gz or vanilladpup-9.0.18-ext4-2gb-bios.uefi.gz to a flash drive, and it's ready. (Or just use something like Etcher).

After this initial flashing, you can edit the boot loader configuration and added another Puppy (by copying the SFSs, etc' to the partition), as you do today. Or, you can extract the files from the image and copy them to an existing flash drive, as you do today.

The images produce normal, writable partitions on the flash drive, and that should be pretty much the only difference in your particular use case.

For you and me that is easy to do.
And what exact specific dd command has to be used?
I already had to provide a correction, to the dd command, given to use, for installing the image of Raspup 8.2.1 to a sd card, to use in a Raspberry Pi computer.
viewtopic.php?t=2259
Read some of the posts in this topic.
Seems to indicate to me, what the actual image will provide is important.

If someone very new to Linux or Puppy, could use vanilladpup-9.0.18-ext4-2gb-bios.img.gz and a program like Etcher, running in some other OS (windows, Ubuntu, etc....)
That would be great.
They seem to always want a program to run to do installs.

Maybe this discussion should be about how exactly the image should be setup to work.
What you describe for these two images seem like a better way to make the image.

But, Frugalpup Installer or Lick installer, will do it all, by simply running the program.
A very new user of Linux or Puppy, really want some installer program to do all the work.
Seems to me, the code in the Puppy installer programs, could be modified, to be able to use an image or an ISO.

Somewhere in the midst of time someone invented the 'wheeled' barrow. It caught on as a more efficient tool for moving stuff from one place to another. Today few of us own wheel-barrows, nor develop the skill-set to always balance them while in motion. But we ride in cars, buses, trains and even occasionally jumbo-jets all of which employ wheels: currently still the most efficient tool for reducing friction.
I can not think of any tool or technique we currently use which is not either, itself, or a direct evolution of or replacement for one which required the expenditure of more energy.
Darwin's axiom of 'survival of the fittest' is misunderstood and misinterpreted. It only means ' fittest within it's environment': the one which can most efficiently obtain, retain, and/or make use of the resources of it's environment. It does not mean the 'strongest' nor the one with the largest teeth and claws. That was the spin put on Darwin's discovery by racist, expansionist Europe at a time it had a military advantage. Time has demonstrated that there is nothing as wasteful, as inefficient to accomplishing an object, as War.
Where the predominant environmental factor is the existence of other humans, finding the means by which they can cooperatively combine their individual strengths is the essence of being 'the fittest'. The economic phrase 'comparative advantage' comes to mind; but only in the context of the various meanings of networks and networking. If Covid has taught us nothing else, it is that our Civilizations --both Global and National-- are network structures. Their break-downs reduce each of us to a dependency upon 'the charity of others'.
Technology is an adaptation in our human pursuit of more efficient means to obtain, accumulate and make use of resources. An ISO is a packaging format. It may not be the most efficient means by which an individual can package an operating system. But it is currently the most efficient means by which the many can obtain and make use of an operating system.
If you want to supplant that mechanism, invent one which under the current state of technology --or an evolution which can be efficiently implemented-- will require the many to expend less time and energy.

Just a view from the cheap seats, reviewing my own uses, these are the things that I find most valuable:

Cross platform, for both Linux and Windows

-tools to open, inspect or extract the contents of the container file
-tools that will install and create a bootable system on either removable or
fixed drives.
-a format that can be booted directly from its container by a boot loader or
in a virtual machine

That's all

wizard

mikeslr,
Technology has moved on.
.
.

.
.
But the thing will still not run Puppy Linux!
.
.

Some information, not totally on topic, but maybe of interest to some.

Recently I needed a ISO to USB installer that would create a USB and allow it to also
store the save file. The applications I tested fell into two groups.
-iso9660 file systems, cannot store save files, not writable.
-fat32 file systems, can store save files and all of the USB is available
for storage

Writable or un-writable is good or bad depending on your view point or need.

In this case writable was good and here were my results that worked with Puppy
uefi ISO's:

Windoows
Rufus, created hybrid boot, uefi and mbr and also copies additional files
from the ISO. Did not include the puppy.cer file.
Unetbootin, created mbr boot, and also copies additional files
from the ISO. Did not include the puppy.cer file.
Linux
Unetbootin, created mbr boot, and also copies additional files
from the ISO. Did not include the puppy.cer file.

Puppy
Unetbootin, created mbr boot, and also copies additional files
from the ISO. Did not include the puppy.cer file.
Stickpup, created hybrid boot, uefi and mbr does not copy additional files
from the ISO. Did include the puppy.cer file.

wizard

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:18 pm

@Clarity :-

No need to get your panties in a bunch..!

Mike, though one of Clarity's posts above is extremely long, and I think a bit too heated, it is nothing more than that. But the way your are responding to him comes across as an attempt to humiliate, which is more against the forum values than any long technical rant.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:18 pm

And please; will you QUIT WITH THE CONSTANT ADVERTISING FOR SG2D & VENTOY!!

I do actually agree with you on this and wish Clarity would accept that we have read his arguments in support of SG2D and as developers done whatever we could or chose to in response, but the matter is over and further discussion about it really should be laid to rest. Nevertheless, it is surely never correct to threaten a forum member with banning simply because they bring a technical topic up again (and even again). It happens. To be frank, you appear to me to do the same when it comes to promotions for your portable sfs apps - yes, I know, you put in a lot of work making these, but sometimes I get fed up reading about them since I already know they are made.

Of course an announcement of a new such app does fairly need to be made so, even when I'm fed up hearing about them, I simply need to move on and ignore any extra promotions I'm tired off. Same goes for stuff Clarity says when it all gets a bit tiring. And then again, we all have our favourite topics - I probably promote WeeDog matters all the time, and certainly on the old forum I was pretty much threatened at times with banning for pushing for more space for other distros than the ancient Puppy, and I still get negative comments in that regard. Still not been banned though, and neither should I be.

Don't get me wrong; I'm really really really tired of all the SGD2 stuff, but I accept I am not interested in it personally because I simply never myself use that method in daily practice. Nevertheless, there seems to me to be nothing in forum rules that prevents further discussion of any technical issue, so your comment below is over-the-top though I do think Clarity needs to listen to all of us in terms of being politely asked to please not go on and on about SGD2 - we already heard.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:18 pm

(And before you even say it, no; I don't want to hear it, Clarity. I'm not interested in your "defence" on this subject. The one thing that will satisfy not only me, but several others, too, is for you to DROP the subject.....immediately. You CAN have too much of a 'good thing', y'know?)

No reason you can't link to some of your existing threads/posts on the subject.

Please be aware; be very careful from now on. This is your first public warning; you'll get a total of two.....then that will be your lot. You're being observed, pretty closely I might add. Your behaviour will determine your future status on this forum.

In summary, I think that two-strike 'warning' is unfair, and I do not support it. But please Clarity understand that everyone is fed up with the SGD2/Ventoy pushing though I understand that BarryK creating this thread did bring it all back to life again - but you (Clarity) frankly went over the top with your response too.

I do not agree at all to any banning for something like this though, or we should all be 'banned'.

@ bigpup. You've either over-estimated my physical agility or underestimated my ability to make a fool of myself. One wheel, two wheels, it doesn't matter. The next time it meets an indentation there's a good chance I'll overturn a three-wheeler.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:04 am

@ bigpup. You've either over-estimated my physical agility or underestimated my ability to make a fool of myself. One wheel, two wheels, it doesn't matter. The next time it meets an indentation there's a good chance I'll overturn a three-wheeler.

^^^^ +1 !!

Me too (unfortunately.....)

T'other Mike.

Regarding wheel barrows...
Wow, a 2 wheel model! I could use one of those where I work, hehe...we have a few single wheel
models, at least they are pneumatic tires, we use them to haul metal shavings, scrap, etc. My
dad had a one wheel model that the wheel was CAST IRON...that sucker is heavy, probably still
outside my Mom's garage (Dad passed in 1987)...I hated using that thing, it was almost as
heavy as whatever stuff we were hauling in it was, hehe! Heaven help you if you hit a soft spot
in the dirt or a mud puddle! That darned wheel would just sink, then I'd have to try to lift the
entire wheel barrow and load up out of the muck.
Wiz

ps...well, we kind of got off-topic of the thread...guess you could say we tipped our barrow!!

Maybe this discussion should be about, how exactly the image should be setup to work.

Is it only to be used to make a boot-able USB drive?

Will this drive be able to boot, on a UEFI bios, with secure boot enabled?

Will the drive have a writable place, to put a save file/folder?

Can the image be used to do a frugal install, to any type drive?

Can a installer program, use the image, to do the frugal install?

Will there be some way to install a boot loader, for the frugal install?

Will installer programs, that are in Puppy versions, need to be re coded, to be able to use an image, to do installs?

And will there be a vehicle to boot the IMG file directly to a PUP desktop without any need to write/rewrite/copy the IMG file-contents to some external as we have been able to do for last 2 years with PUP ISOs?

Of COURSE, for this idea, WE must ask for @MikeWalsh's approval, of course.

Someone wrote that IMG format is easy to handle when you're using EasyOS/Puppy. But when you're using Windows/Ubuntu/... , ISO format is much easier to handle.

I propose to use hybrid ISO with an additional modification: append a partition as the working partition.

@BarryK in your blog post "Why ISO was retired", you wrote that using ISO image file on a USB stick will make it "mostly unusable". But a hybrid ISO image is also a HDD image containing the ISO image as a partition. You can add one more partition as the working partition.

And it will be almost the same as your solution (with 2 partitions in a HDD image). However, this hybrid ISO image can also be use as a normal ISO file for anyone who want a read-only boot image or want to put this among other ISO files in his/her USB stick.

@ bigpup,

Just to derail this academic discussion a little more, revisiting bigpup's assertions here, viewtopic.php?p=44127#p44127, as an attorney for 30 years whose ethical obligation of zealously representing clients sometimes required that indisputable facts be misconstrued, let me assure you that IT CAN RUN PUPPIES!

Just not by me.