Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

I have a very old HP netbook, a 2140. It is an atom processor and I'm trying to see if I can find a linux distro that works reasonably well on them. Puppy Linux seemed to be a possibility so I downloaded the Ubuntu puppy 32 iso and got a live CD. I have nothing I need to save on my hard drive, I'm just trying different distros till I find one that works. But I'll be darned if I can actually find an ISO to download which is not a live CD. I'm also not sure I understand what a frugal install is. I don't want to run from the CD/DVD because the HP player is really really slow and besides I have a hard drive to use. What am I doing wrong? Where can I find a download link to a non live-CD iso file which erases the existing hard drive and installs the distribution on the hard drive. Thanks.

Hello ! We can show you a way to do this using the "Live CD" if you can boot temporarily from the CD drive.

There are tools that are available to install "frugally" which means that all the distro's system files are in a directory on the hard drive, which would make it possible to have several distro's able to boot and run that are all on the same hard drive.

If you can burn a CD with something like Puppy Linux Bionic 32 bit version. Then boot the computer with this CD.

There will be an icon on the desktop for the install program. There are more ways of doing an install to the hard drive but using the install tools will be the easiest depending on your level of working with Linux.

What does the icon look like? Is it on the desktop itself or on the bar on top?

Note I found a brown square that seemed to be the installer. I tried going through it, but it complained about my disk not being the optimum type. It brought up a repartitioner but there were no instructions and it wasn't clear what I was supposed to do. So I backed out and just clicked install. Last time I went for a full install because I didn't have anything on the disk to preserve. I said no to the boot partition loader because I wanted to have only one distro. That resulted in an unbootable machine which looked for the boot loader. I then tried again, this time not partitioning (because I didn't know how and wasn't sure if this would make the disk unusable by another option I might try later) and selecting frugal (though I really still don't understand the explanation) and yes for the bootloader. It then gave me a question on where to install grub and I had absolutely NO idea. I selected search within only this device. No idea if that is right.

I get the idea I should avoid these distributions if I'm not a Linux expert. I clearly don't have the subject expertise to even understand the questions I have been asked during the install. The other distros I tried kind of held your hand more, they just asked if you wanted to erase the hard disk and start from scratch and then installed it. I get the impression here that this is capable of a lot more but only if you understand what is happening.

Anyway, It actually booted this time without the CD, but the bootloader had what seemed to be 2 copies of the distro plus some other stuff and I have no idea what that means either. Very confusing for the uninitiated.

Ok, so my memory is shot but my fingers still remember a lot of shell commands. But there doesn't seem to be a vi editor. Is this true or do I just need to update my path somewhere?

The following was written before your last two posts. For my responses to those, look below the -=-=-=-=-
Hi carbon_dragon, and to the kennels.

Don't worry about the packages only being ISO for the moment. ISO is just a way of packing operating systems. Although it was developed for 'burning' them to CDs, there are programs to 'burn' them to USB-Keys. With a Puppy booted from a USB-Key or CD/DVD it is usually easy to then to do an install to a hard-drive. Depending on what operating system the computer currently has it may be possible to do a direct install to a hard-drive, bi-passing the CD/DVD/USB-Key intermediary stage.

Also don't worry about the name 'frugal'. It is the entire Puppy operating system, just packaged so that it can be confined to a folder rather than spreading its contents/files out requiring an entire partition. It was designed that way so that it could 'co-exist' with Windows with Puppys' folder being on an ntsf or fat32 partition. So deployed, you would be invited to create a SaveFile when you shut down. A SaveFile or SaveFolder is what Puppys usually use to save application settings, customizations and additional application you install. A SaveFile is a specially formatted block of space on a drive. It can be made larger, but not smaller. If, however, you have a Linux formatted partition, you can, instead, create a SaveFolder. It has no fixed size and will automatically expand as you save changes and install applications. With a SaveFolder, you have almost all the benefits of a 'Full install', none of its problems, and can do several things you can't with a Full install. The 'almost' has to do with how much RAM your computer has. If it has more than 512 MB, you'll have to measure the difference in responsiveness in micro-seconds.
By the way, did you know that there are Puppys specifically remastered to use with Atom processors?
Here's the catch: To give you directions for getting from where you are to where you want to be we have to know EXACTLY where you are. At a minimum we need to know:
1. How much RAM does your HP 2140 have?
2. What operating system is it now using? Do you want to keep that system and 'Dual-boot' or discard it?
3. Do you have access to any other computers you could use to burn ISOs to CDs/DVDs/USB-Keys? and, if so, what operating systems do those computers have?
-=-=-=-=-=-
I'm not sure where you are when you wrote "What does the icon look like? Is it on the desktop itself or on the bar on top?" Have you somehow booted into Bionicpup32? or are you still running whatever operating system the HP 2140 had before you downloaded the Bionicpup32 ISO and are looking for the ISO's icon?
This only applies if you somehow booted into Bionicpup32. If so how?:
Vi is not one of Bionicpup32's built-in applications. As a text-editor it has 'geany' --but without all the possible extensions. I'm not certain which terminal application it uses. But I think you'll find urxvt on Menu>Utilities. It might have lxterminal which, IMHO, makes life easier: you can cut & paste between text editors and terminals. Lxterminal has a menu you can use. urxvt requires pressing the mouse-middle-button or some alternative. If not builtin, lxterminal can't be installed until you have a functioning Puppy.

HP mini 2140 Intel Atom N270 1.6gHz. 133Mhz
Fujitsu Sata hard drive 5400rpm 160GB
I think I have 2MB ram, not positive (I'm reading the device information in this dist, but I may not be looking in the right place)
I was running Windows XP in the old days, but not now (now some version of puppy Ubuntu is on here)
I don't need a dual boot, which is why I was trying to do a full install, I don't want fragments of previous installs around
Yes, my regular computer is a iMac 5K and I'm burning my ISOs from there

When I booted to this LIVE cd, on the top dock, third from the right was an "icon" of a rounded edge brown featurless icon. THAT is apparently the installer. Having installed it on the Disk first with a failed full install, and then with a successful frugal install with a boot loader (probably installed incorrectly) it is now running. Vi is kind of a deal breaker for me. I haven't used UNIX for a while (and never Linux, just a bunch of different UNIX versions over the years both AT&T and BSD variants) but even so, Vi is wired into my fingers. I wouldn't be able to function without having it on the distro. I expect I should probably move on to a different distro if Vi isn't an option.

If I do try installing another Linux version, and it has a wipe the disk option, is my install of puppy going to cause any wacky results given that I did not repartition the disk?

It brought up a repartitioner but there were no instructions and it wasn't clear what I was supposed to do.

newer distros combine the OS install process with the disk prep process, but there are only a few pups that do, (most likely ones that would not work well with an older machine.)

two discrete steps

1. Presuming you booted an older puppy from a CD on an older machine, and your partition tool is gparted.
Make an ext3 partition on your hard drive https://gparted.org/help.php

2. Presuming you are being asked to install grub4dos boot loader? install boot to mbr would be proper. some entries in the boot loader can be ignored for now and deleted later if not needed

First, consider this. CD installs do load slow, and work slow sometimes. But it would be worthwhile though, to see if the puppy you chose will work with your hardware, wifi, sound etc. by burning a few different cds while you learn more about frugal installs.

edit: if you do not have 2G memory, but can upgrade to 2G there are quite a few pups that should work well.

once you have a frugal install up and running, you can add additional frugals and have multiple to play with and choose from

hmm, which puppy are you trying to run? there are some older pups maintained with more modern browsers, if your browsing experience suffers, it could be from the cd not working fast enough, or could be from the atom being overworked

Sorry, but Puppy Linux programs offer choices you have to decide what you want done.
That is one of the features of using Puppy.
The programs do not automatically just do stuff.
Well, until you setup settings in a specific program to make it work how you want.

Anyway, It actually booted this time without the CD, but the bootloader had what seemed to be 2 copies of the distro plus some other stuff and I have no idea what that means either. Very confusing for the uninitiated.

Any install of Puppy needs two things to work.
The Puppy version installed on the drive.
A boot loader installed on drive, with menu entries to boot it.

The way you messed up the first time and did not install the boot loader. You did install Bionicpup32 8.0, but no boot loader to boot it.
The 2nd time you did everything correctly.
Did a frugal install and installed a boot loader.

When the boot loader installed it saw you had two different installs of Bionicpup32.
So it made boot menu entries to let you choose which one to boot.
The other boot menu options are for allowing some of the more specific non-normal ways to boot.
Good to have if the normal boot does not work.
Just be happy you have those other options to booting.

To give you some very specific info on deleting one of the Bionicpup32 installs.
We would need to see what is actually on the drive.
Take a Shot program can make an image file you can attach to a post on the forum.
Open Rox file manager showing contents of the drive.
Take a shot of the Rox window.
Attach the image file Take a shot made, to a post.

But the easy way.
Boot the computer with live CD of Bionicpup32.
Use Rox file manager to delete everything on the drive.
Redo the install the way you did it last time.
Frugal install.
Installed a boot loader.

To get even more of a clean setup of the drive, before doing the frugal install.
Use the Gparted program to delete all partitions on it.
Make one partition, format it ext 3 or 4 format, flag it boot.
If you want to use Gparted to do this.
We can guide you on how to run Gparted.
It is not that hard.
Just have to make sure it is selected to work on the correct drive.
It warns all the time about deleting data.
But that warning is just a way to stop you and make you think did I make the correct choice.
Partitioning and formatting has to delete the old data on the drive.
That is what you are trying to do.

Hallo, @carbon_dragon :- to the 'kennels'...

There are essentially TWO kinds of Linux user:-

• The 'refugee', who has no interest in WHY Linux works the way it does, and who just wants to be able to install an OS, as quickly & simply as possible, and get on and use it to do stuff.

• Then there's the 'geek'.....who is highly interested in every little thing about the nuts'n'bolts of the operating system. Many of these spend more of their time installing/uninstalling/re-installing systems than they do actually using them.

--------------------------------

It has to be said that the concept of a 'frugally installed' operating system makes very little sense to anyone who has only ever known & used "fully installed' ones. But t'other Mike has pretty much covered the basics.

• A 'fully installed" OS requires a partition all to itself. It copies its files to that partition, then the /home directory - where 'user' directories go - can then expand up to the size of that partition, as things are installed.

• A 'frugally' installed' Puppy can confine all its files to a single directory. Puppy's system files are contained within 2 or 3 highly-compressed, read-only files. At boot, the initrd creates a 'virtual' file-system in RAM, after which it decompresses & copies the contents of those read-only files into the virtual file-system. The end result, so far as the average user is concerned, is a standard Linux set-up with a full "/" file-system.

------------------------------------

As Mike said, the 'frugal' concept was originally developed to allow easy installation of a lightweight Linux distro actually inside a Windows install. In this instance, the Puppy will always create what's known as a save-file.....a kind of 'container' which contains a pre-formatted Linux file-system within it. This allows Puppy to function correctly on an NTFS file-system.

As it turns out, you can extend this concept to run multiple Puppies on a single partition, by the simple expedient of installing each one to a uniquely-named directory, all beside each other on the same partition. Puppy's boot-loader will then search two layers 'deep' to find a bootable kernel.

I would advise performing a 'frugal' install if you can, because most Puppy software is coded to work best with that manner of install. As stated further back in this thread, a 'frugal' Puppy is still very much the complete OS; 'frugal' merely refers to the fact that when installed, your Puppy takes up very little space on the disk when compared to any other 'lightweight' distro.

-----------------------------

As for vi; if that is what you want, it's simple enough to install as soon as your Puppy is up-and-running. That won't be a problem.

Our admin, rockedge, has given you a good outline, which I, personally, still think is the easiest way of installing Puppy; burn the ISO to CD, boot from that CD, then install from within the running Puppy. (This is why, although my current rig is less than 2 years old, I went out of my way to find one of those rare & almost 'mythical' beasts that still come supplied with a built-in optical drive.)

I understand your concerns about the installer itself. As it stands, the 'Ubiquity' installer, used by more distros than any other, DOES tend to 'hand-hold' you through the procedure, largely automating most of the stuff that gives folks the biggest cause for concern....like formatting partitions, etc. Puppy, it must be understood, is mainly a 'hobbyist' distro, for folks who LIKE 'tinkering' and doing things for themselves. Consequently, things like formatting with gParted does tend to be a 'manual' procedure, to be undertaken by the user themselves.

It's not ideal, though the community has been working to address these kinds of issues in recent years. When you DO understand exactly what's happening, and why things do what they do (and why!), it's perfectly possible to perform a 'quick & dirty' install, of ANY Puppy, within 5 minutes or so.....

Any further questions, don't be a stranger..!

Mike.

if I do try installing another Linux version, and it has a wipe the disk option, is my install of puppy going to cause any wacky results given that I did not repartition the disk?

No.
But the other Linux OS installer, is probably going to delete the Puppy Linux install, and end up with that Linux OS, only one on the drive.

Look at all the posts after the last one you made.
The bad thing about posting on the forum.
Two or more people, could post at the same time, and the last post, may not be the last post you have not read.

Most Pups do not have vi installed. You could install vi or vim using the ppm Package Manager.

In Puppy, you would use mp (Minimum Profit text editor) if X is not running, or geany text editor if X is running.

There's a tiny vi text editor written in assembler, called e3vi
it's about 16k

Hello William. I am not sure this a factual for the 'vi' editor.. You might check to be sure.

williams2 wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:20 pm

Most Pups do not have vi installed. ...

@carbon_dragon, I see you, like many users new to Puppyland, are curious if this site offers distros that are a functional match for re-using an old netbook. I, too, am an owner of an old Netbook. This forum has plenty of past distros which will run on your netbook. As an owner for many years of my Netbook, I can offer an insight that might be helpful to another owner.

The members explaining things here are very knowledgeable and you might place a lot of trust in what they share.

I will step back and offer a consistent view yet explained a little differently.

If you did NOT upgrade your Netbook, it has 1GB of RAM. If you upgraded the RAM at some point it has more. But the RAM technology of that era of processors limit you to ONLY being capable of getting to 4GB. And, Netbooks do not come with CD/DVD drives in most every case and thus, like I had to do, you need an external USB connected unit if your want to use/create discs. But, enough of the hardware.

Every 32bit Puppy LInux distro, old and new, that I am aware of will work with your Netbook. 32bit PUPs are packaged as ISO and can be used in a number of ways:

1. ISO software, Windows or LInux, to make a bootable CD/DVD disc

2. Windows or LInux utilities to make a bootable USB stick/device

3. Windows or LInux utilities to make a bootable SDcard

and are the easiest of the methods to get something that will boot, LIVE, to your system. A LIVE operation does EVERYTHING that Puppy Linux would do...even if you used some other means of 'installing" the distro to your main HDD.

When booting either of the 3 methods I have shown, Puppy boot Menu gives YOU the option of loading the distro for LIVE use in RAM OR you can boot the distro telling the boot-manager to ONLY load a minimal amount of Puppy into RAM while keeping the rest of Puppy on your media until you do something in the system to call a function into RAM (this method is the NOCOPY option available). Using these USB pathways yields identical operations.

If you have used other distro over the years on your Netbook as I have, all/most of them offer a means to INSTALL the Linux onto your HDD (or some permanent storage device after you have booted their ISO from a DVD or USB). Puppy does NOT have a similar INSTALL subsystem. Instead, PUPPY offers a manual approach for setup of your Netbook call "Frugal" to write Puppy files to your HDD for boot time use. And how to do a Frugal setup to your HDD is described in many locations across this forum. (I ask other members to suggest their favorite FRUGAL steps.)

I hope this gives you a simple understanding of what Puppy Linux is.

Since you are NEW to Puppyland, I recommend that you start with booting and using a LIVE Puppy until you are comfortable enough to proceed to a FRUGAL setup.'

I have tried and booted, LIVE, a few modern 32bit PUPs on my Netbook a few weeks ago in helping another forum Netbook owner. Each of the PUPs booted with mixed results due to the age of the netbook and its hardware. AS I've already mentioned, all of the Puppy LInux distro that you find on the forum will boot on your Netbook. Here are the 'modern' ones I have tested.

• bionicpup32-8.0+28-uefi.iso

• LxPupFocal32-21.02+8.iso

• ScPup32-21.04+2-T.iso

• slacko-7.0.iso

• UPupFF+D-20.12+8.iso

• UPupHH+D-21.04+6.iso

For my Netbook (it is NOT an HP) the 'ScPUP32' matched my hardware perfectly. "Your mileage will vary' on which of these match your hardware.

I hope this is/will get you started to re-use or evaluating use of an old Netbook for your personal need.

Good Luck.

I know BionicPup64 8.0 does not have vi installed, as a busybox applet or as a full version.

I have XenialPup64 and FossaPup64 installed.
I do not think vi is installed in them.

i have some older Pups. I don't think vi is installed in them.

I'm not sure whether some older Pups have a vi busybox applet.

I do know that many older Pups have mp installed, and that mp has always been considered as an alternative to vi.

So yes, you are absolutely correct.I don't really know for certain exactly how many Pups have vi built in and how many do not.

I have XenialPup64 and FossaPup64 installed.
I do not think vi is installed in them.

Just checked those 2. I concur.

My Slacko64 and other distro all have 'vi' editor. Sorry for my request. And YES, some PUPs do NOT have 'vi'.

Thanks William

From the previous posts you should be able to see that:
(1) There are many Puppys which are likely to work on your computer. But let me explain. Puppy is actually a 'family' of operating systems. For about the last 10 years almost all Puppys are created using the 'core' files known as 'binaries' of major Linux distros, most often Slackware, debian or Ubuntu. But between an operating system's 'core' files and the applications a User works with --such as LibreOffice or firefox-web-browser-- there's an infra-structure. Every 'original' Puppy is created by using one of the programs known as 'woof', using Puppys unique infra-structure to a large extent but the binaries of the 'major linux distro' chosen by it creator. The 'infra-structure' and use of woof results in every Puppy being similar. But anyone, including you, can create you own version of Puppy starting either with 'woof' or remastering. At last count there were over 5,000 published versions of Puppy, each slightly different. You'll find discussions many on the SubForums named "Mainline", "Puppy Derivatives" and "Projects".
Clarity has listed several he's worked with which are likely candidates for your computer. I could name a couple more; and I'm sure others could add to that list. And that, itself, creates a problem: which to try?
(2) It is generally been recommended that you first try a Puppy by booting it from a USB-Key or a CD. To do that requires you use your current operating system to 'burn' the puppy's ISO to the USB-Key or ISO. That's why I asked what functioning operating systems do you currently have. Knowing that, we can recommend programs for that system to do the 'burning'.

Elsewhere on the Forum, Clarity has frequently mention one such 'burning' application known as Ventoy. I'm not as big a fan. But it does have one advantage over most others: If you are interested, Clarity or someone else can fill in the details. But in the simplest terms what Ventoy enables you to do is 'burn' one boot-loader to a USB-Key, and copy the ISOs of up as many Linuxes as your USB-Key can hold that you are interested in. On boot-up, Ventoy will display a Menu of the Linuxes you've placed on the Key, enabling you to try each without having to go thru the burning process again. Indeed, from any OS which functions you can delete those you've decided against and add other ISOs you want to try. I think ventoy will generate a new boot-menu-list.
Can you use Ventoy? I don't know. What operating systems do you have available?

@mikeslr advice is a good one. So, I would like to amend his recommendation.

Firstly, for anyone where this is their very first time with any PUP-DOG, I would stick with making bootable USB/CD/DVDs directly from the ISO file they download. Reason: Most people who venture into the Linux world is accustomed to making bootables this way.

But, should one want a truly easy solution avoiding the intricacies of trying multiple PUPs-DOGs and the management headaches that result in past methods, the SG2D and the Ventoy approaches will ease their lives and can be used over and over with no downside management issues. The approaches are reliable, safe and consistent.

For someone new to Puppy, as well as anyone using a 32bit PC or using a Netbook, I would instead of Ventoy, use the SuperGRUB2 (SG2D) solution. SG2D is better suited for how modern PUPs are designed and users will have less problems in booting their PUPs.

Once a user is comfortable with SG2D (instructions found here) knowing that it boots all their modern PUPs, I would then move to use Ventoy with the Ventoy instructions I provide on the forum. That set of instructions insures that if a user runs into any problem with Ventoy booting their modern PUP, they can scroll the Ventoy list for the SG2D ISO file knowing that IT WILL BOOT THE PUP.

SG2D instructions provides a 'starter' SG2D USB and the user MUST copy the PUP ISO Files of his choice. The Ventoy instructions do not have a 'starter' USB.

The instructions for using either of these methods for managing PUP-DOG ISO files are easy to follow.

Should that method for managing and booting PUPs-DOGs be chosen, expect little to no problems AND expect that any questions in the use of either will be quickly answered.

Specs:

https://support.hp.com/au-en/document/c01664293

So has XP told you that you have 2 gigs of ram, which would be better?

:::::

I have an old Acer netbook..similar specs, smaller screen...has just died last week.

Boot from usb...do not delete the drive.
In case you want Windows just once.

Normally it's not that hard to boot usbs but I had this last week, so stay away from
Toshiba USB products. Some usbs just work better than others.
If you had 2 gigs I would say try Dpup Stretch.
But there are a lot of rebuilt Pups..like Eons.

Get back to us mate.

Worst USB to boot.

viewtopic.php?p=38835#p38835

Chris.