Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Greetings all.

I am a longtime Windows user, trapped in the MS loop because certain work-related applications won't run under another OS... not yet, anyway, but I am hopeful.

Some years ago I inherited my wife's old HP Mini-Netbook computer, which by that time had been upgraded(?) to Windows 7. Horrible little machine, but cute, and with such limited resources that even at my age I could think faster than it could. Very slow. I had experimented with some very early version of Puppy Linux and decided a while back to install a current version on the HP. I was blown away by how much quicker it was, although its utility was limited because of my need to remain a Windows user with most things. BUT... for general Websurfing, especially into dodgy areas, the little HP is great and keeps away from nasty infections that would, literally, put me out of business using Windows. I also like the idea that the OS and, I guess everything else, is resident on a tiny flash drive.

My go-to browser for any platform is Firefox, and I'm running that on the Puppy HP as well... version 45-something. Today I got a note from some site that I needed to upgrade my browser for the 'best experience,' but Mozilla is telling me that my current version is the most recent that will run under my current Puppy OS. So I'd like to upgrade if I can figure out how. I think I'm running a version of Lucid Puppy, but am not sure as I don't know how to bring the current OS version info up on the screen.

Perhaps what I'm running isn't current anymore, so I'm soliciting any tips or hints as to what distro I might better use instead, with the understanding that this little HP has small memory and limited processing power.

Any minute now those with much knowledge on the subject will have some solutions but in the mean time let me say Welcome to the Kennels!

What version of Puppy Linux are you running now? Is the machine 64 bit capable? Some more detail on the RAM and CPU also would help to get the ideas rolling...

To provide accurate information the more we know about your computer, the better. Perhaps the most important thing we need to know is how much Random Access Memory your computer has. Please tell us that; and letting us know the make & model wouldn't hurt.
With over 5,000 Puppy variants and 30 +/- versions actively supported (a) no one knows everything and (b) everyone has their favorites. My understanding is that on some computers "Slackos" will produce better graphics and/or better sound. But for my purposes and on my computers I generally stick to 'Ubuntus' and 'debians'.
As the computer was built for Windows 7 and you were able to run Lucid, you should not have any difficulty running 'Mainline' Bionicpup (32-bit) even without adding a swapfile. (Option to create a swapfile without any fuss is offered on recent Puppys the first time you shut down and create a SaveFile or Folder). You might also try dpup-buster, viewtopic.php?p=2208#p2208 especially if you're fond of 'xfce' which reminds me of Window 7's GUI.
But my recommendation is to obtain a USB-Key and try out several Puppys before deciding. Do try some 64-bit Puppys. Even if the installed Windows 7 was only 32-bit your computer certainly has the hardware to run 64-bit systems. And 32-bit applications are being phased-out. More and more websites are only granting access to 'current' web-browsers. You can still obtain current 32-bit firefox, seamonkey, palemoon, iron and vivaldi web-browsers. Look here, viewforum.php?f=90. But 2 years from now?
I'd suggest trying Xenialpup64 if you don't have over 2 Gbs of RAM. With 2 or More, I don't think the amount of RAM is a determinant. But with less than 1 Gb --and the inability or unwillingness to upgrade-- maybe it would be best to stick with a 32-bit system for as long as you can.

Mike, it's been a while since I last played around with Lucid. I think it has a version of HardInfo, but I'm not certain if PupSysInfo will play nice with it. D'you or anyone else remember for sure..? I can't run it on this new HP midi-tower, 'cos it refuses to boot past the "Looking for VESA BIOS extensions" thing, and at the moment I simply can't be arsed to dig the old Dell out (it's buried under a ton of other stuff ATM).

Come to that, if Win 7 is on the thing, I guess CPU-z would probably do what Electrojim needs, insofar as letting us know what the hardware situation is like. I reckon if it's an HP 'Mini', it's more than likely an Atom CPU in there.....and I reckon 2 GB RAM sounds about right, too. Along with possibly a 160 GB HDD......though equally likely to be an 80 GB one.

We need more info. Guessing games won't help the OP out..!

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@Electrojim :-

Is this something similar to what you've got there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Mini

Uh-huh. Almost certainly a single-core Atom, though RAM can vary - dependent on model - anywhere from 1 GB DDR2 up to 3 GB DDR3.....and drives anywhere from a 16/32 GB SSD (likely eMMC crap) up to a 160 GB 'proper' HDD.

It's a fair bet we can get you set up with something that's a lot more up-to-date than Lucid.....which is almost at "senior citizen" stage now, insofar as browsers/internet-facing apps are concerned. Personally, I reckon Xenialpup 7.5 might be just the ticket on there...

INFO...!!

Mike.

I have an MSI U100 Wind Netbook with similar specs. The device is still running Saluki by Jemimah. Saluki as far as I remember is sharpened for such netbooks.

From a shell console run: 'cat /etc/issue'
You questions will be answered ..

Having a couple of questions about what Xenialpup64 could do, I just booted into it. According to Menu>System>Pup-SysInfo, it booted to desktop on my computer using only 157 Mbs of RAM. Of course, this computer has powerful CPUs which reduces its dependency on RAM to accomplish anything. But keep in mind, this was on boot-up with nothing other than Pup-SysInfo running.
Web-browsers are gluttons for RAM. Typing this using Palemoon pushed RAM usage up to 470 Mbs. Graphic-rich websites are RAM-hogs. A Youtube video pushed it to 743. Two graphic rich videos at the same time pushed it to 897. Seamonkey would be a little less. But you get the idea how quickly you can run out of RAM.
However, that's because of the demands placed on any system by graphic rich web-content. A 32-bit system isn't going to change RAM usage by much.

Browsers are not doing well. Forget about opening ten tabs in browser and HD video.
Now even Midori has started using Electron instead of WebKit2GTK . Remains perhaps Dillo. You can try qutebrowser.
Previously, there was a Windows version of Pale Moon, Pale Moon SSE, which was made in Czechia by Roman Štefko especially for netbooks. Maybe someone is doing something similar for Linux now, but I don't know.

Hey, you guys are great! Thanks so much for taking the time to weigh-in on this. I'm used to forums that assume members to have PhDs in whatever subject the forum is about, and I have to tell you that, as a longtime Windows user (by necessity!), Linux does seem very strange to me, with its own language, keystrokes, etc. that so far are far from intuitive. I hope to change that soon.

Last things first, per Jafadmin's suggestion I ran the command on the Console and got this:
sh-f.1# cat /etc/issue
Lucid Linux
Linux 2.6.33.2 [i686 arch]
So I suppose that answers the question as to which version of Lucid Puppy I am running.

As far as the machine goes, it's an HP Mini Notebook, all right, and I have the original manual and other documentation. But all that doesn't show a thing, except that there's supposed to be a Service Sticker on the bottom, with model number, but it's just not there. I does run an Atom processor, as witnessed by a proud Intel sticker just beneath the keyboard.

Now, somehow I stumbled on System Information under Pup Scan, somewhere(!), and found this treasure trove of Summary statistics:
Computer
Processor 2x Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPUN450 @1.66GHz
Memory 998MB (315MB used)
Operating System Puppy Linux 0.52
User Name root (root)
Date/Time Wed 21 Apr 2021 11:04:39 AM PDT (This is way off!)
Display
Resolution 1024x600 pixels
OpenGL Renderer Unknown
X11 Vendor The x.Org Foundation
Multimedia
Audio Adapter HDA-Intel - HDA Intel
Input Devices
(bunch of stuff, typical list of stock components)
Printers (CUPS)
(CUPS-PDF)
pdf_writer
SCSI Disks
ATA TOSHIBA MK1655GS
SanDisk Cruzer Fit (That's the flash drive I have with the OS, etc.)

So that ought to answer most questions about hardware, except it doesn't list the built-in wireless adapter, webcam and some other usual suspects.

My primary problem is that the Firefox browser appears to be enough out of date that various URLs I go to are complaining about it. Mozilla says this OS won't support anything higher, so I'm wondering if SeaMonkey or another more current browser might work under this OS, or if I should bite the weenie, scrub this OS and migrate to something newer and better supported. I do feel comfortable with Lucid, however, as if it were made for disgruntled Windows guys.

Again, many thanks to all, and all info and recommendations are welcome. I get the feeling that my one post here turns into a platform where you guys might hash our differences or otherwise indicate a proper course of action.

Your hardware seems roughly comparable to my 2003 Compaq laptop with 1.3GHz Celeron and 1 GB RAM. On this machine I'm happily running Precise Light:

viewtopic.php?p=238#p238

Precise Light is installed as a regular frugal install on the hard drive. I have the very latest SeaMonkey installed and that works quite nicely for general browsing including YouTube, although I can't say whether SeaMonkey would be acceptable to some of the fussier web sites.

Electrojim wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:36 am

Computer
Processor 2x Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPUN450 @1.66GHz
Memory 998MB (315MB used)

I'm typing this to you now with the same CPU in Firefox 78.6 on 32-bit Ubuntu Xenial, currently the 5th listing on the download page. Your request is modest and feasible.

This machine was designed to not upgrade past 1gb, but someone posted a YouTube hack of it being done. I have 2gb, but I don't know if or how well the system uses the memory. Same screen. Same internal HD brand. For all intents and purposes, we have the same computer.

@Electrojim :-

Mm. O-kay.

Whilst I agree with 6502coder - Precise (and variants thereof) are currently the ball-park, "go-to" kind of Puppy area for something with those kinda specs - I don't know if Precise-'light' will run current Firefox. As previously stated, the issue so many of these older, low-powered machines have IS that of running a current browser; for many of the built-in apps, if they work, they work, and no real need to update them.

Understand one thing about Puppy, if you will; we're not on a never-ending treadmill to constantly upgrade to the 'latest & greatest' the way Windows (and indeed, some mainstream Linux distros) are. The biggest 'bone of contention' for most people with modest - and reasonable - requirements IS that of a current web-browser; it's pretty much a 'must-have' if you want to get owt done these days.....and even here in Puppy-land, we recognise the need to keep browsers up-to-date if nothing else!

------------------------------------

Atom N450 - SSE3's; good, because some newer browsers now want SSE3 minimum to run (it WAS SSE2s, but this is a recent development). H/T (hyper-threading); again, good, because this means the single-core CPU will "act" like a dual-core, and makes work-loads a bit more flexible, too.

I'm concerned about that 1 GB of RAM, though. Even with Puppy, famed for keeping older, lower-powered hardware useful & functional, modern browsers really stomp all over low amounts of memory. They're RAM-hogs, as t'other Mike said, and you can quickly use that 1 GB up doing practically nothing.....and if you want to visit any of the well-known sites, lightweight browsers often run into issues with Javascript, certificates, all sorts of stuff. So you're going to NEED a mainstream browser, with the attendant RAM-usage....

Some "Minis" CAN upgrade the amount of RAM.....some can't.

A "swap" partition will be essential, I'm thinking. Question; would you be prepared to upgrade that 1 GB stick of RAM to a 2 GB stick? It would help to make the experience a lot more enjoyable, that I can guarantee! (It's not a "requirement", but it'll just make things work a lot better; once you run out of RAM and start "swapping" heavily, speed & responsiveness will take a nose-dive...)

If so, we've got to find out what generation of RAM you're on; DDR2 OR DDR3. Without a model number for your 'Mini', we're somewhat stuffed.....!!

Mike.

I think your netbook will run both 32 bit and 64 bit Puppies. I can happily use BionicPup32 on a single core 32 bit Acer Aspire One with 1 GB of RAM and I know that the Slacko 32 ones run on it as well. With low RAM I suspect 32 bit Puppy will be best.

Linux can compress the RAM with a process named as ZRAM so that the RAM effective capacity goes up by a factor of 2 or 3 at the expense of a little bit of extra CPU cycles to compress and decompress. It is described here: https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 112599&i=1 but I am not certain whether it is in Puppy or how to do it. I expect others can tell us that.

Also, I think Ubuntu does not need a swap partition as with systemd I think they put swap into a directory. I don't think Puppy can do that but it would be useful if it did.

Well, as a couple of us have suggested Bionicpup32, viewtopic.php?p=550#p550 that's one definitely worth trying. So is xenialpup32, viewtopic.php?p=578#p578. Might run a little lighter on resources.
Under either, I recommend that you try portable firefox, firefox-esr (long-term release - doesn't update as frequently) or even seamonkey as portables. An advantage of portables is that they will "auto-update". But when a new version is published you can try it out: You can copy your old version to a folder and update that one without overwriting/wiping out your current working version. Another advantage is that they contain any required libs newer than those built into your Puppy. But, it's been awhile since I set these up; you may have to 'borrow' some of the files from the following firefox-quantum thread to use in the others. [There are addons you can use in Seamonkey so that it represents itself as firefox]. You can find each of them, respectively, linked from these posts: https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... e4#p978010; viewtopic.php?p=2206#p2206. Read the post about firefox-quantum first as it will provide a good idea of how these were packaged and what's going on.
Both bionicpup32 and xenialpup32 will also run portable iron and portable vivaldi. viewtopic.php?p=4865#p4865 and viewtopic.php?p=3491#p3491

mikeslr wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:38 pm

...I recommend that you try portable firefox, firefox-esr (long-term release - doesn't update as frequently)...

Yes, portable is good and that's the Firefox running here. Part of the Firefox evolution is those automatic updates (the old versions are better for this and the "Never" update setting).

The update control is in /root (ram), so even if you're using Firefox out of the Puppy directories, it won't save your update settings unless you deliberately (or negligently) save your Firefox configuration.

I like to save once configured and keep it the same but tend to boot so many different puppies and browsers that I forget where it has/hasn't been done.

My Firefox 78.6 probably started as 57 (Xenial default) and I let multiple updates happen, outside of Puppy.

Standalone you don't have to install the app. It's a great alternative for tolerant programs.

This is the same Firefox 78.6 running standalone in Tahr, but it just crashed. It would probably be more stable with additional dependencies, but Xenial or newer is the way to go.

Browser compatiblity is the reason I started using Xenial.

Thanks once more, guys. A quick question: Since the only reason to do anything major seems to be the browser situation (sites wanting a newer version of Firefox than this version of Precise will run), can I simply replace Firefox with SeaMonkey and have up-to-date browsing? Same old OS? Again, pardon my lack of Linux experience, but I'm finally beginning to understand the language anyway! My major reason for using Firefox was the separate Search window, which just seems more natural to me, and the reason I'm running FF on Windows. A minor inconvenience if just a lighter-weight browser would do the job.

I also really don't want to upgrade RAM, even if it's possible. And I like the idea of the computer's 'smarts' residing on a tiny flash drive, which I suppose could be plugged into machine in a pinch. This old HP Mini is not for serious computing, and I don't need significant 'session' storage on the flash drive.

Mmm surprised nobody suggested Stretch 7.5 Puppy.

As mentioned by James Bond. Some of the earlier Dogs also good like Jessie and Stretch Dog

Electrojim wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:56 pm

Thanks once more, guys. A quick question: Since the only reason to do anything major seems to be the browser situation (sites wanting a newer version of Firefox than this version of Precise will run), can I simply replace Firefox with SeaMonkey and have up-to-date browsing? ...

Maybe, and there's a rather hassle-free way to find out thanks to 'tOther' Mike. From this post there are links to three portables Mike Walsh has published: viewtopic.php?p=2206#p2206.

See also this post for how to use any version of seamonkey, i.e. update to the latest or any in between viewtopic.php?p=3944#p3944. I don't know if any will run under precise; or that the ones which do run will be acceptable on all websites you care to frequent.
I use seamonkey 46 sometimes without a problem. But haven't tried to access my bank using it as I don't consider it sufficiently secure.
You can also use the 'kit' from that post to 'portablize' any version of firefox or firefox-esr you download from mozilla. https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/. Same questions, again.

FYI, there are ways to configure seamonkey so that it 'spoofs' websites into thinking it is firefox or chrome (or maybe even Edge). There are addons which can do that; but depending on which version of seamonkey getting those addons may require some work. There are also config settings which can be used. Ask for instructions if you need them.

Electrojim wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:56 pm

Thanks once more, guys. A quick question: Since the only reason to do anything major seems to be the browser situation (sites wanting a newer version of Firefox than this version of Precise will run), can I simply replace Firefox with SeaMonkey and have up-to-date browsing? Same old OS? Again, pardon my lack of Linux experience, but I'm finally beginning to understand the language anyway! My major reason for using Firefox was the separate Search window, which just seems more natural to me, and the reason I'm running FF on Windows. A minor inconvenience if just a lighter-weight browser would do the job.

I also really don't want to upgrade RAM, even if it's possible. And I like the idea of the computer's 'smarts' residing on a tiny flash drive, which I suppose could be plugged into machine in a pinch. This old HP Mini is not for serious computing, and I don't need significant 'session' storage on the flash drive.

Firstly, you should strongly consider to use a newer Puppy as people have suggested (especially if you are a newbie to Puppy). Stretch, Xenial and Bionic should all run the newest browsers out of the box. If you are going with an older Puppy like Precise you will have to upgrade the system to get the newest browsers going, I'm using Precise, I can get the very latest Palemoon to work as well as Seamonkey. I haven't been able to get the latest Firefox going, that needs LOT of upgrades. I use Palemoon and it is the easiest to get going. The following upgrades are necessary in my experience:
Palemoon - glibc2.20 upgrade at least plus a newer version of the libstdc6 library.
Seamonkey - Same as Palemoon but you also need to install GTK3.
There are small packages available for these upgrades. Here to get the latest Palemoon running with Precise.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wAHAKE ... sp=sharing

Hello @Electrojim

Your laptop has a Intel Atom CPU N450 which allow you to run ANY PUP and ANY of the DOG linux you find on the Puppy LInux Forum...your choice.

Each that you find is slightly different, yet they ALL do basically the same things you found on any Windows based PCs you have used over the years. ALL Linux(s) do those things in a slightly different manner than you had in Windows, so you will learn those new approaches to do those old things you were accustomed to. So dont hesitate to ask or review the howto area of this forum.

I am not sure if your laptop allow RAM expansion, but if you have any intensions of browser workloads, as most of us do, you should consider adding more than the 1GB you have...assuming you plan to keep this laptop.

In todays world, internet demands are greater than they were, when in 2010 when your laptop was manufacturered, 11 years ago.

The fact that your laptop has a 64bit CPU is a bonus allowing your all of the PUPPY options you find on this forum. And, because of this fact, when coupled with one of the many 64bit PUPs and DOGs on this forum you find, the browsers will be far more compliant with the moving internet solutions that continue to emerge as time advances.

If you have a home network, coming from your Windows background, choose a Puppy that has SAMBA built-in, OOTB, as it will allow you to share content you accumulate on this laptop in EXACTLY the same way as you may be accustomed to with your home's devices, today. This way, nothing will need to be added to match a normal Windows you have used in the past.

Enjoy

You asked for a way to run seamonkey under Precise, so I provided it. But I agree with amethyst and Clarity. YOU SHOULD UPGRADE your puppy to the latest version your computer can handle. In the long run, doing that will actually involve less hassle than trying to eek-out the last dregs from Precise. And maybe not even that much of a long run.

See the above recommendations for bionicpup 64, 32 and dpup-stretch.

@Electrojim :-

You might like to take a look at PaleMoon-portable, too.

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=709

You can find the latest 32-bit build 'tweaked' with a built-in glibc2.28, here:-

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

This includes a newer version of libstdc++.so.6, along with the more up-to-date glibc. Pale Moon will do 99% of everything you could want, so.....maybe take a look? Can't hurt to try....

Mike.

Precise 5.7 is the first Puppy I booted years ago, and I haven't booted it since. I'm not sure which browser you got.

Everything else has Pale Moon, Firefox Light, or Firefox.

Pale Moon has a separate search box too. It's lighter than Firefox.

The issue with standalone Pale Moon or loading the SFS as I just did is conflict with the existing version.

Both will run, but you have to be kind of technical to intentionally choose the one you want or remove the existing version.

So it's really a question of what you want to do. It reads like you want to keep Precise. If any current browser would do, your chances look good.

Conflict is not really an issue, TBH. Much will depend on the location of your directories.

A couple of years ago, when I had a 'standard' Chrome install in the regular location in /opt, I was experimenting with ways to run two different versions of the same browser in the same OS.....and ended-up running the second one entirely from within /usr/share. In fact, this was how I assembled the very first 'chroot' Iron SFS package I published, before realising that the 'chroot' package would work just as well with the 'portable' version.

With the 'standalone' ('portable') version of any browser, scripts are all written in such a way that every component part of the browser, including config stuff, remains within the 'portable' at all times. So again, no conflicts.....to which end, you can move the portable directory from one Puppy to another, and it will still fire-up, exactly as you left it. You can even run them from a flash drive.

Mike.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:25 pm

Conflict is not really an issue, TBH. Much will depend on the location of your directories.

I don't wish to confuse the op fellow-user with intricate extraneous info, but

I'm in Tahr with PM 25 default.

I loaded PM 28 SFS and opted to run it after load.

PM 25 ran.

I went to /initrd to run the SFS.

That's conflict.

Iron is a great Chromium flavor, keeping 32-bit alive.