Any way to fool JWM and/or ROX regarding desktop size?

[greengeek]

Does anyone know if there is any quick and dirty way to "fool" JWM and/or ROX as to the size of the "desktop" ??

I have a new Puppy user who is using a Dell Optiplex 7040 with a Panasonic TV as a screen - via HDMI.

I have tried a variety of 32bit and 64bit Puppies but cannot get the desktop to match the TV resolution. But I don't think it is Puppy's fault.

Unfortunately the TV seems to keep "zooming" the desktop such that icons and menus (and system tray) are just offscreen.

My guess is that the TV "zoom" or "aspect ratio" have been changed at some point - but the remote has been lost so we are stuck with this behaviour.

I have tried using xorgwizard - but the TV seems to override whatever Puppy sends. I also used Vanilla pup - using Wayland - but the adjustments there only seemed to work for half a second - then reset. In fact they flickered back and forth to the point where I almost had epilepsy.

So - is there any way to fool JWM and/or ROX as to what desktop size we wish to display?

Is there some way to convince JWM that the icons at left of screen should be brought closer to the centre? And the system tray brought up closer to the centre also?

Another way to describe this is to ask - "is there any way to "pad" the desktop so that the desktop contents are shrunk towards the middle?

Here is a normal desktop:

desktop.png (96.8 KiB) Viewed 1301 times

.

here is what it would look like if JWM could "pad" the window with some sort of frame to push the icons and trays further towards the middle:

[Jasper]

What is the output when use xrandr in terminal?

[greengeek]

What is the output when use xrandr in terminal?

Thanks for the question Jasper. Please hang in there for my answer - may be a day or so before I can get hands on with this screen again...
Cheers!

[Jasper]

@greengeek

The reason I am asking is that you have said it is a TV.

If you look at my screenshot, you can see there is a 1920x1080i selection (i for interlaced .... TV)

So, you should be able to change the resolution and frequency.

[wizard]

@greengeek

From the internet:

Most TVs offer picture settings that you can access using buttons on the TV or its remote. Look for setting names like underscan, zoom, aspect ratio, presentation mode, computer mode, screen fit, screen fill, or format. For help, check the manual for your TV, or contact the TV manufacturer.

These settings make sure the picture fills the entire screen. Overscan was always used in the day of CRT TV's as they found loss of image at the edges was more acceptable than a black line frame.

Don't think changing the resolution will help, but changing the aspect ratio might.

wizard

[mikewalsh]

@greengeek :-

It's quite possible @Clarity might have some ideas in this respect, Ian. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen them posting about HDMI with TVs, and using the built-in speakers, etc....

Mike.

[mikeslr]

FWIW:

I have a new (I think) 23" monitor, albeit not TV. In the past I've used xrandr to set resolution. But for this monitor I discovered that the module identified as "Screen resolution" offered more options, including one which did not have the display extend beyond the visible.

Screen resolution.png (28.01 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

[bigpup]

Panasonic TV

What is the model?

Look on the back, bottom, and outer edges of the TV.

Most usually have a physical switch or button that will open the internal setup screen.

The TV may be set to auto adjust based on whatever signal is coming in.
So adjusting the signal from Puppy is not going to set.
You need to disable auto adjust in internal settings.

Internal TV settings is going to be the best way to maybe get what you want.

[Clarity]

... the remote has been lost so ...

@bigpup is correct to guide you to the TV's manual via locating the model number and searching.

ALL TVs including earlier models provide buttons on bottom/sides allowing you to get into setup rather than using a 'lost remote". Further there are some remotes that are universal and could be useful if one is acquired for remote use.

TVs are an excellent choice over the old VGAs for old people like myself. After 2 years of this, I CANNOT go back to old monitors VGA/DVI.,,too small. With TVs, I no longer have speaker wires or need glasses

[greengeek]

What is the model?

Panasonic TH-L32U20Z

Model.jpg (54.09 KiB) Viewed 1050 times

Look on the back, bottom, and outer edges of the TV.
Most usually have a physical switch or button that will open the internal setup screen.

FunctionButtons.jpg (112.37 KiB) Viewed 1050 times

Unfortunately these buttons only seem to control audio and image quality. Nothing controlling the size or aspect. No OSD access.
.

The TV may be set to auto adjust based on whatever signal is coming in.
So adjusting the signal from Puppy is not going to set.
You need to disable auto adjust in internal settings.
Internal TV settings is going to be the best way to maybe get what you want.

Yep, I think that is it in a nutshell. But I think in the absence of the remote - I really need Puppy to send a desktop that has "padding" around the edges. Then all the good stuff will be within the screen limits.

[greengeek]

Overscan was always used in the day of CRT TV's as they found loss of image at the edges was more acceptable than a black line frame.
Don't think changing the resolution will help, but changing the aspect ratio might.

Yes, I spotted a post in the old forum about "overscan". I think that would solve this problem if it was a valid setting available on an LCD screen (or some similar type of adjustment). But I think you are right about "Aspect" - either aspect or zoom is locked in and I can't change it without the remote.

Pano_AspectRatio.png (73.43 KiB) Viewed 1048 times

In the past I've used xrandr to set resolution. But for this monitor I discovered that the module identified as "Screen resolution" offered more options, including one which did not have the display extend beyond the visible.

Thanks - I tried this on various Puppies - and also a similar (but different - via Wayland) version on VanillaPup too - but it seems the TV continually expands the desktop regardless of the resolution Puppy tries to display. Smart TV being dumb i think.

ALL TVs including earlier models provide buttons on bottom/sides allowing you to get into setup rather than using a 'lost remote".

Unfortunately not with this TV apparently. It seems to need the remote for access to the OSD functions. The function buttons are limited to non-OSD adjustements.

FunctionButtonNoOSD.png (81.57 KiB) Viewed 1048 times

.

Found a manual for what i think is a very similar model
http://panasonic.ae/en/manuals/TH-L32U20.pdf
.

What is the output when use xrandr in terminal?

@Jasper - Dammit, I forgot to run this command. Will try in the morning.

[Jasper]

@greengeek

Do you have a mobile phone? Or access to one?

If so, you might be able to install an application on the mobile phone device that could be used as a remote control eg IR Remote

This version requires Android 4.4 or newer.

IR Remote - Version 1.7.0
https://f-droid.org/packages/us.spotco.ir_remote/

There must be similar on Apple's App Store.

[greengeek]

What is the output when use xrandr in terminal?

Apologies for the bad image - here is the output from Mint (which suffered from the same inability to get the whole desktop displayed)

PANO_xrandr_-q.jpg (91.55 KiB) Viewed 925 times

I see the "i" option. Looks like Mint did not choose that one.

Any idea how I might switch to that option?

[greengeek]

I imagine will will be able to borrow an appropriate remote some time in the next few weeks to try reconfiguring the TV - but to be honest I do want to find some way to get jwm set up to achieve the effect of moving icons and trays to a smaller region towards the centre of the desktop.

Here are my thoughts about what would be required to achieve this:

• Rearrange puppypin to move desktop icons further away from left edge and a bit lower down - leaving blank area around left and top edges.
• Reposition drive/partition icons further from left edge and higher up
• Reposition the tray somehow. (Or find a way to do without it - maybe rely on conky and also some form of floating rox panel??)
• Limit the size of "maximised" windows so that the control buttons at top of each window (minimise/maximise/close) stay away from the desktop corner.
  Maybe some of these things can be achieved using wmctrl.

I will keep toying with this idea and see if I can make any of it work.

Would be nice to have some form of "Safe Mode" which would enable Puppy to keep it's icons, menus and gui functions in a smaller than usual area in the centre of the desktop.

(Maybe some wm other than jwm already has this functionality??)

[MochiMoppel]

to be honest I do want to find some way to get jwm set up to achieve the effect of moving icons and trays to a smaller region towards the centre of the desktop.

OK, since nobody answered your topic question, I'll give it a try but ..to be honest ..I don't think that it's a good idea. One more question: The Panasonic TH-L32U20Z has a dedicated connector for PCs (D-SUB 15Pin aka VGA connector) and supports up to WXGA, which would be 1260x800. Would this be an option?

Here are my thoughts about what would be required to achieve this:

• Rearrange puppypin to move desktop icons further away from left edge and a bit lower down - leaving blank area around left and top edges.

You can do this manually. First shift them to the center and with the TV attached move them to the visible edges again. I also recommend that you fire up a horizontal and a vertical pxRuler. This would give you the exact number of pixels on each side that are invisible and would make it easier to determine the "dead zone" surrounding your desktop

- Reposition drive/partition icons further from left edge and higher up

Here it becomes messy. You surely can reposition the current ones like all other icons, but connecting a new storage device will result in a new icon, and AFAIK this icon is positioned by a dumb script that puts it on the lower edge of the screen, disregarding your dead zones.

- Reposition the tray somehow. (Or find a way to do without it - maybe rely on conky and also some form of floating rox panel??)

The easiest task of all. Just change the "y" value of the tray. It may now be -1 (bottom edge). A value of -100 would move the tray 100px up.

- Limit the size of "maximized" windows so that the control buttons at top of each window (minimise/maximise/close) stay away from the desktop corner.

Also fairly easy. You need trays on each side. JWM will confine maximized windows to the area within trays. The good news is that such "stopper trays" can be as small a 1px, i.e. practically invisible. I use one of those 20px from the top of my screen because above it I placed a ROX panel and I want to avoid that maximized windows cover the panel.

Maybe some of these things can be achieved using wmctrl.

I don't see that wmctrl can help. wmctrl can position windows, but not icons.

I will keep toying with this idea and see if I can make any of it work.

Good luck!

[mikewalsh]

@greengeek :-

RE : Re-positioning drive icons

I don't know the exact name of the particular "dumb" script that controls it - @MochiMoppel probably does, better than I do - but you may have seen my more recent Puppy desktops, where I run with the drive icons more towards the bottom centre, and about twice as high above the tray as usual.

To move these is simple. Rt-clk any drive icon -> Run Desktop Drive Icon Manager (it's part of the Puppy Event Manager):-

To move 'em across, increase the 'Start gap'. To move 'em up from the bottom, increase the 'Edge gap'. You can play around with icon spacing if you want while you're here, but whatever changes you wish to make, always tick the 'Refresh/Re-align Existing Icons' checkbox before hitting 'OK'.......otherwise, they don't get applied. You may need to run this several times to get them where you want them.

This way, that "dumb script" is now working to your advantage.......and new drive icons will get added where you would expect to see them.

Let us know if that helps at all.

Mike.

[MochiMoppel]

@mikewalsh You are right. Seems that the dumb script can now be configured. I haven't looked at the Eventmanager for a long time because it doesn't work for me. The Eventmanager wrongly "assumes" that I use PuppyPin (I admit it's difficult to realize that I use the ROX-Filer default pinboard ) and so all these settings have no effect for me, but for greengeek this should be useful.

[mikewalsh]

@MochiMoppel :-

When I used to run Slacko 560 the first time around, some years ago, I quickly discovered that most of the scripts were the older, less 'functional' ones. I'd got used to the newer GUI 'front-ends' - with the additional features - in the 6-series, i.e., Tahrpup. A little bit of experimentation soon revealed that these were mostly 'standalone' scripts, so I swapped the newer ones over with the older variants. They ran quite happily, and with everything showing correctly after I discovered about the 'matching' PuppyStandard icon directory in /usr/share/pixmaps.

(I didn't need to swap pMount over, since Micko had just introduced the more modern pMount GUI with Slacko 5.5/5.6. To my way of thinking, it actually looked nicer with the included color-scheme than the re-written version that had replaced it in Tahrpup...and it still had the additional functionality.)

Mike.

[wizard]

@greengeek

You can customize the JWM tray by editing: /root/.jwmrc-tray. Here's an example on BookwormPup64, the drive icons were moved using Event manager. The .jwmrc-tray file is attached and the first line was edited as follows:
-deleted: valign "bottom" #this allows the tray to be moved
-added: y="-25" #this moves the tray up
-edited halign to: halign "center" #centers the tray
-added: width "-200" #narrows the tray
-save and restart window manager

EDIT: these changes can get overwritten if you make other JWM changes, try making the .jwmrc-tray file read only

Hope that helps.

wizard

custom-position.jpg (25.05 KiB) Viewed 853 times

[wizard]

@greengeek

Take A look at this post for some ideas to limit the size of maximized windows:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1256089 ... ed-windows

Be sure to post back your solutions.

wizard

[greengeek]

Thanks all - some great pointers here.
It will probably be a month before I can get access to the TV again, but in the meantime I can try all these techniques at home and based on what you have suggested I feel confident of a solution.

I am really hoping I may be able to end up with a single script that allows the required changes (or maybe even a script capable of toggling back and forth) - but I will try each item manually first and work out the overall details.

Setting up a script may involve "soap RPC" or other techniques but I'm keen to see what's possible.

Will report back as i try stuff.

[bigpup]

According to the manual for the TV.

The manual buttons on it can be used to access settings.

I would get the Puppy booted and displayed on the TV.
Then see if auto tuning would adjust the screen.

Anyway, it seems pressing the F button repeatedly, gets to different setting menus.
.

Screenshot(2).jpg (110.29 KiB) Viewed 815 times

[mikewalsh]

@greengeek

You can customize the JWM tray by editing: /root/.jwmrc-tray. Here's an example on BookwormPup64, the drive icons were moved using Event manager. The .jwmrc-tray file is attached and the first line was edited as follows:
-deleted: valign "bottom" #this allows the tray to be moved
-added: y="-25" #this moves the tray up
-edited halign to: halign "center" #centers the tray
-added: width "-200" #narrows the tray
-save and restart window manager

EDIT: these changes can get overwritten if you make other JWM changes, try making the .jwmrc-tray file read only

.....or, you could do as I do.

I had a spell, several years ago, when my PuppyPin and /root/jwmrc-tray file used to go AWOL on a regular basis. I never did get to the bottom of WHY it was happening; instead, I devised a work-around that involved making copies of the PuppyPin file, /root/.jwmrc AND /root/.jwmrc-tray to an external location outside the 'save' as part of the shutdown procedure. Intermediate scripts 'interrupted' the hand-over routine before it got to 'wmpoweroff' or 'wmreboot' as appropriate, made the copies, then passed control back to the regular shutdown procedure.

I used a gxmessage box to tell me when the copies had been made.....which had to be 'OK'd' manually before the routine would continue, so acted as a kind of confirmation check. Other scripts, linked to a Menu entry would, if required, run the 'Restore' routine if things had gone AWOL at startup; if it was going to happen, it would always happen at this same point. I still use this routine to this day, but touch wood, it hasn't happened for several years now.....though it's nice to know it's there if needed. With highly-customized desktop set-ups like I run, re-setting the desktop so it's exactly how I want it again can get old, REAL fast.....especially if it's happening at all regularly.

The nice thing about this is that the PuppyPin file, in particular, will always be in the exact same state as when you shutdown. PuppyPin is a 'dynamic' file; in other words, as you move icons around the desktop, the contents of PuppyPin get re-written, in real time, AS you make those changes.

Mike.

[greengeek]

One more question: The Panasonic TH-L32U20Z has a dedicated connector for PCs (D-SUB 15Pin aka VGA connector) and supports up to WXGA, which would be 1260x800. Would this be an option?

Unfortunately we didn't have a suitable cable on the day - but yes definitely an option. Won't be back there for a few weeks though - and am keen to get a generic "desktop shrinking" methodology worked out for more general use.

.. I also recommend that you fire up a horizontal and a vertical pxRuler. This would give you the exact number of pixels on each side that are invisible and would make it easier to determine the "dead zone" surrounding your desktop

Great suggestion. Will do this next chance I have. And "dead zone" is a great name to describe it.

- "Limit the size of "maximized" windows so that the control buttons at top of each window (minimise/maximise/close) stay away from the desktop corner" Also fairly easy. You need trays on each side. JWM will confine maximized windows to the area within trays. The good news is that such "stopper trays" can be as small a 1px, i.e. practically invisible. I use one of those 20px from the top of my screen because above it I placed a ROX panel and I want to avoid that maximized windows cover the panel.

Do you have any tips as to how i should do this? And do I need 4 trays?
EDIT : I feel that I must have done this sort of thing before - some years ago. But I can't remember the detail. Will do some searching on the forum.

[greengeek]

You can customize the JWM tray by editing: /root/.jwmrc-tray. Here's an example on BookwormPup64, the drive icons were moved using Event manager. The .jwmrc-tray file is attached and the first line was edited as follows:
-deleted: valign "bottom" #this allows the tray to be moved
-added: y="-25" #this moves the tray up
-edited halign to: halign "center" #centers the tray
-added: width "-200" #narrows the tray
-save and restart window manager

Fantastic, thanks. This is working really well.

Take A look at this post for some ideas to limit the size of maximized windows:
https://askubuntu.com/questions/1256089 ... ed-windows

Very interesting thread, thanks.
For now I think Mochi's suggestion with jwm edge trays may be the simple option so I will start with that and try the more complex options later if needed.

[greengeek]

I devised a work-around that involved making copies of the PuppyPin file, /root/.jwmrc AND /root/.jwmrc-tray to an external location outside the 'save' as part of the shutdown procedure. Intermediate scripts 'interrupted' the hand-over routine before it got to 'wmpoweroff' or 'wmreboot' as appropriate, made the copies, then passed control back to the regular shutdown procedure....
The nice thing about this is that the PuppyPin file, in particular, will always be in the exact same state as when you shutdown. PuppyPin is a 'dynamic' file; in other words, as you move icons around the desktop, the contents of PuppyPin get re-written, in real time, AS you make those changes.

Do you think it would be straightforward to swap between PuppyPin files without going through a full shut down? Can it be done with a simple jwm restart?
(I am thinking - copy PuppyPin somewhere, modify icon x and y values, replace existing PuppyPin with modified PuppyPin, restart jwm. Or maybe sed "in place" modifcation might work).

[mikewalsh]

@greengeek :-

Umm.......no; you wouldn't need a re-boot. But a re-start of JWM wouldn't do it, either.

"jwm -restart" or "jwm -reload", these will refresh/restart the window manager components (as is to be expected). But the PuppyPin file is all about ROX-filer's pinboard grid (plus your desktop background). And ROX-filer is not controlled by JWM.....so a restart of "X" is required here (usually "restartwm").

Does that help - or hinder - your plans at all?

Mike.

[MochiMoppel]

ROX-filer is not controlled by JWM

So far correct (let's put aside that a ROX pinboard is just a special kind of window and as such under certain control of the window manager)

.....so a restart of "X" is required here

That's wrong.
Pinboards can be conveniently switched with a command like rox -p /path/to/tvpin and switched back to PuppyPin with rox -p /root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin
If you follow ROX's naming convention and default file locations you could even skip the full path and end up with simple commands like rox -p tvpin and rox -p PuppyPin . It's bedtime now. I'll explain tomorrow if needed.

[greengeek]

.....so a restart of "X" is required here (usually "restartwm").

Does that help - or hinder - your plans at all?

I always find X Restart a bit annoying - but hey it's way better than a full reboot. At this stage I will go with whatever is necessary just to reach the proof-of-concept stage.
Ultimately I think it would be nice to have a single icon pretty much mid-screen and have that icon toggle between normal desktop and shrunken desktop - all with no other user intervention than clicking the icon.
That way if someone was having issues with inability to change resolution , or having these TV zoom/aspect issues then there may be something easy to try...
(even if they have no idea what an Xrestart or WMrestart is...)

[greengeek]

Pinboards can be conveniently switched with a command like rox -p /path/to/tvpin and switched back to PuppyPin with rox -p /root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin
If you follow ROX's naming convention and default file locations you could even skip the full path and end up with simple commands like rox -p tvpin and rox -p PuppyPin .

Oooh, that sounds handy.
So at the moment in order to reposition my desktop icons - I think i would need to create an alternative PuppyPin, switch to that, then simply revert to the original when I toggle out of shrunken mode.

Does the "Lock" icon comment here apply in modern Pups? (I will probably focus on Fossapup for my testing so no lock icon for me but possibly still a potential issue in other pups))