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USB 3.0 hub support [SOLVED]
I am in Windows doing simple File Explorer copies.
I have exactly one working USB 3.0 port & the
Onn hub which lists support for Windows, Mac, & Chrome OS.
In Puppy my drives are getting power from the hub but not being recognized.
Is this normal? Does anyone have a working hub in Puppy?
not being recognized when trying to boot a drive connected via a hub would be common
are you booting from an internal drive and just trying to access a usb storage drive?
I assume you are saying it is working OK with Windows?
So you are not seeing any drive icons on the desktop, for any of the drives connected by the hub?
What specific Puppy version you using?
In Pup-Sysinfo ->Devices ->Drive Storage ->SCSI
Does it list any of the drives hooked to the USB hub?
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected 
I have been a hub user for decades. Each OS not only recognizes 'hub' presence but also recognizes storage devices connected to the ports of the hub.
There are commands, Win/MAC/Linux to list the devices; hub and storages devices passing thru.
Also, ALL of my PCs and test PCs boot from a USB stick connected via a hub on each particular PC. And all partitions on each USB stick/drive is identified without issues.
Some of my hubs are powered while others are not.
Question
Can you tell us "when" are you trying to use your hub, please? For example:
At boot time?
after system is booted?
when a USB device is plugged into the hub?
when you try to mount or see USBs connected to the HUB?
???
We can help with a bit more info of where you are on this and what have you done.
williwaw wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 4:55 amnot being recognized when trying to boot a drive connected via a hub would be common
I tested that not expecting it to work.
are you booting from an internal drive and just trying to access a usb storage drive?
USB and just trying large transfers with 3.0. My desktop with (2) 3.0 ports shorted. 
bigpup wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 5:43 pmI assume you are saying it is working OK with Windows?
So you are not seeing any drive icons on the desktop, for any of the drives connected by the hub?
What specific Puppy version you using?
Yes Yes & probably 64Fossa
In Pup-Sysinfo ->Devices ->Drive Storage ->SCSI
Does it list any of the drives hooked to the USB hub?
I will have to test.
Flash wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:53 pmAlso, what is the file system in the drive(s) that Puppy won't recognize?
NTFS
It would be a non-boring job testing distros regularly, but succinctly my machine with the one USB 3.0 port only works with Fossa of anything I've booted, I am assuming because it is newer.
So I boot Fossa by USBFLASH, remove it, plug in the hub, then attach media to the hub. The drives spin up but are not being recognized.
Your post reads encouraging but I don't mind booting W11 that came with the device if it is necessary.
Clarity wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:32 pmI have been a hub user for decades. Each OS not only recognizes 'hub' presence but also recognizes storage devices connected to the ports of the hub.
There are commands, Win/MAC/Linux to list the devices; hub and storages devices passing thru.
Also, ALL of my PCs and test PCs boot from a USB stick connected via a hub on each particular PC. And all partitions on each USB stick/drive is identified without issues.
Some of my hubs are powered while others are not.
Question
Can you tell us "when" are you trying to use your hub, please? For example:
At boot time?
after system is booted?
when a USB device is plugged into the hub?
when you try to mount or see USBs connected to the HUB?
???
We can help with a bit more info of where you are on this and what have you done.
So I boot Fossa by USBFLASH, remove it, plug in the hub, then attach media to the hub. The drives spin up but are not being recognized.
Removing Fossapup64 USB install, from no longer being accessible, is probably the problem.
All Puppy versions, when they boot and load into RAM, are only going to load hardware support for what they see when booted.
Especially USB controllers, which is what a USB hub is.
With Fossapup64 USB no longer plugged in.
It has no way of getting software, it may need for a new type device, that gets plugged in. (USB hub)
Before booting the computer.
See if you can plug in the USB hub.
Have the fossapup64 USB install plugged into the hub.
See if the computer bios will provide you the option to still select the Fossapup64 USB as a device to boot from.
In boot devices, the bios may have it now listed as a different device, from what it did call it, when only the Fossapup64 USB was plugged into the computers USB port.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
but I don't mind booting W11 that came with the device if it is necessary.
Any time you run using Windows 11 and shut it down.
Make sure to do a normal complete shutdown of Windows 11.
Do not shutdown in hibernate mode.
Drives are not completely released form control by Windows 11 in hibernate mode.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
@bigpup and other developers
I have seen running WoofCE PUPs over the years where in certain conditions, the booted PUP can "lock" the booted device. And, after running on desktop (RAM), if the USB on the port is removed, there are some odd behaviors some PCs have. They are numerous and I wont go into the varied ones I have witness since WoofCE was started and even before.
One such odd is what happens when a WoofCE is booted via Ventoy and issues relating to removal of the unit after boot and re-insertion. This is merely an example; and does not seem to apply to this user's problem. But ... maybe ... a relationship???
I find this problem a bit leaning toward some hardware incompatibility in the use of that USB devices and that port during POST; and how the distro sees that port and any devices after boot to desktop.
Based on bigpups word I will trying booting with the hub attached, though I still have to wrap my brain around two issues:
1) If everything in the Puppy .sfs is available, except in the case of conflicts, why does it matter if a device is attached upon boot?
2) If USB media can be hotplugged, why not a hub?
That machine has a second 2.0 port that boots.
When a computer boots the first thing that happens is the computers bios activates the hardware.
Yes hot plugging is in Puppy Linux, but it is not perfect.
Especially if you are hooking up a USB controller (which a USB hub is)
How exactly is the computer identifying the hub to Puppy, when it is plugged in????
The computers USB controller is involved in this.
The hub is going to hook multiple USB devices into the computer, all by one computer USB port.
who knows, maybe this hub actually needs specific Linux kernel hardware support.
So maybe the kernel being used, by the Puppy version, is a factor.
Hardware support is the biggest reason to use a newer Linux kernel.
The rest of your questions are affected by, what specific version of Puppy, when it was developed, and how Puppy worked at the time it was developed.
Some of the latest versions of Puppy, that have the latest changes on how Puppy works, are suppose to support removing the Puppy USB drive, and now be able to use that USB port, for some other drive.
Fossapup64 9.5 is not one of them.
However the save file/folder does have to be on some other drive, so it is still available to use.
That is another recent change for booting from a Puppy on a USB.
Allowing the save to be placed on another drive.
Up until recently and the newest Puppy versions.
The save had to be placed on the USB drive the Puppy install was booting from.
I have not really tried doing this, because I use Puppy from a USB SSD drive that is always hooked up.
I think BookwormPup64, maybe F96-CE, probably the newer versions of Vanilla Dpup, etc..........would be good for you to try to do what you want.
Any Puppy version that was built, using the fairly recent version of Woof-CE.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
bigpup wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2024 6:28 amSome of the latest versions of Puppy, that have the latest changes on how Puppy works, are suppose to support removing the Puppy USB drive, and now be able to use that USB port, for some other drive.
Fossapup64 9.5 is not one of them.
???
Loading everything into RAM and subsequently running completely in RAM has always been the default behavior for Puppies. One of my machines runs an old Lucid 5.2.8 which I booted from an USB stick. I kept the stick unmounted and removed it. This machine now runs for over a year without ever rebooting. Having no HD either it is truly RAM only.
@MochiMoppel
But what happens if you change the hardware the computer is using?
Plugging in a USB hub is doing that.
What pupmode are you running it in?
Probably pupmode 5 which is not working the same as a normal USB booting using a save.
different pupmodes operate in different ways.
For sure you do not have a save file or folder that is being used.
Save file/folder does not load into RAM. It layers into the operating file system to read from it and write to.
Why do you think the way puppy worked in the past is how a newer Puppy version will also work.
Processes have changed.
I think some of this persons issue could be hardware support in the Linux kernel being used.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
houndstooth,
The USB you boot from.
Is it using a save file or folder?
If yes.
What drive is the save on?
What pupmode is it running in?
Pup-Sysinfo ->Sys-Files ->PupState will tell you.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
I have an old 7-port USB 2.0 hub, which has its own power supply.
I've never had problems booting any Puppy from it, whether 4-, 5-, 6-, 7-, 8-series.......or newer. But my situation is different, I'll own. Apart from the USB 2.0 port that hub is plugged into, this HP Pavilion also has 3 other USB 2.0 ports, plus 2 USB 3.0 and a USB-c.....
Mine never gets unplugged, that's for sure. I've also never tried a USB 3.0 hub, probably because I don't, in fact, have a use for one. With the USB 2.0 hub, I have a total of 13 USB ports..!
(The hub was 'inherited' from back when the ancient Inspiron lappie was my only box.....and that had only 2 ports. I ran a couple of 64 GB flash drives from it for 'external' storage; this increased my storage by almost 550%, 'cos the internal drive was a magnificent beast of 20 GB!)
I will confess, I've never tried booting a Puppy from USB, then removing the stick. Bigpup's theory of losing access to the kernel & firmware sorta makes sense, in a roundabout kinda way.... 
)
Mike. 
@bigpup I am always in 5 but intend to start using pupsaves again once I get an internal SSD in place. The reason is I spend too much time manually configuring each boot, even if it's customized. I am also intrigued by swap.
It is entirely possible 3.0 vs. 2.0 technology could make the compatibility difference, but 3.0 speed is the point of the hub in the 1st place.
Did you try this?
Before booting the computer.
See if you can plug in the USB hub.
Have the fossapup64 USB install plugged into the hub.
See if the computer bios will provide you the option to still select the Fossapup64 USB as a device to boot from.
In boot devices, the bios may have it now listed as a different device, from what it did call it, when only the Fossapup64 USB was plugged into the computers USB port.
What this does, is also a clue, to maybe offering you a fix.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
If you are always using Puppy in pupmode 5.
If you have a USB 2.0 and 3.0 port on the computer.
Have the Puppy USB you boot from plugged into the USB 2.0 port.
This will only make it take a few seconds longer to fully boot up.
The USB hub plugged into the USB 3.0 port.
Boot the computer with the Puppy USB and then unplug it, when it is fully booted.
Any help getting the USB hub seen by Puppy?
If the hub is now seen by Puppy.
You could leave the Puppy USB plugged in and put a save on it.
I assume the working USB hub would now provide any needed other USB ports.
You may just need to be using a newer version of Puppy.
That is using a newer Linux kernel and newer firmware.
Maybe a Puppy version that has a series 6 Linux kernel.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
Hello again @houndstooth
Could you answer the following
When you boot you laptop, do you hit a hot-key to tell you PC which device to boot from?
When the HUB is plugged in AND the USB is connected into the HUB, is devices listed by UEFI showing the very same USB?
When the HUB is plugged in AND the USB is connected into the HUB, does the PC boot the USB plugged into the HUB?
If you select that USB connected to the HUB for UEFI booting, what exactly happens?
I am trying to understand if this is an OS problem or a use of UEFI problem.
@Clarity hello yes,
This is an 11 laptop still in "safe" mode. It does not remember USB boot indefinitely, so I generally F2 into UEFI to choose USB.
My testing is limited, will have to give it another go. Basically power wakes up the drives but Puppy will not recognize attached media. I have to test & report back more, like I have yet to boot the hub attached which is possible with the 2.0 port while 3 won't recognize the hub.
Your motive is a good question. I would have a stronger hunch if I knew it was normal for a device like a hub to need a driver when nearly all USB media are recognized ootb.
If other OS are supported it wouldn't be UEFI? So far 11 is a go.
houndstooth wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:14 am@Clarity hello yes,
This is an 11 laptop still in "safe" mode.
do you deliberately boot into safe mode?
or perhaps your w11 came with "S" mode
williwaw wrote: Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:12 amdo you deliberately boot into safe mode?
or perhaps your w11 came with "S" mode
Latter. It might be called "Secure Boot" if that's not something different. The 'feature' I'm talking about is limitation to 'approved' OS & only being able to install apps from the Windows store. I can't even run a command prompt as Administrator.
Told it's easy to remove S mode but not go back once you do. I am not working on that laptop but boot it when I need it, increasingly more as my only working machine with USB 3.0.
just an update
I'm multi-tasking but did a test today: UEFI recognized USBFLASH attached to the USB hub unpowered, but did not execute the USB bootloader so the internal partition booted W11 like no media were attached.
I spent the time in W11 doing file transfers, but that was a surprise outcome.
Unpowered was unintentional (I forgot to switch the power strip). Having it on is my next test.
I'm going to take the device off S mode requiring a connection to the Microsoft Store. 
Did you change the boot device to boot from, in the computers UEFI bios setup, or go to the boot device menu and select whatever it now identifies the Puppy USB as?
A powered hub needs to be powered to get it to work correctly.
The controller in it probably will not function unless it has it's power turned on.
It does not get power from the USB port, because it has it's own power supply.
Most likely the computer USB port is only used for data transmission, not to get also power from.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
Re: USB 3.0 hub support
bigpup wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 5:45 amBefore booting the computer.
See if you can plug in the USB hub.
Have the fossapup64 USB install plugged into the hub.
Success
I experience an ongoing hassle of this device's UEFI not saving boot order, but bigpup was right to try booting the 3.0 with the hub powered and attached.
What was I doing before? Successfully booting by USBFLASH without the hub, or not having the hub recognized after boot.
In Puppy I need to comprehend a USB hub's attachment requirement upon boot.
Non-puppy I have to learn how to preserve boot order. Manually choosing USB every boot is a hassle.
If you want Puppy to be the default boot operating system when you boot the computer.
If the USB hub is connected and using it's own power supply.
The Puppy USB drive is plugged into the hub.
Just as the computer starts to power on.
You need to go into the computers bios setup program.
Under boot devices.
Select the one with the Puppy on it as the first device to boot from.
Usually the devices are in a list as device1 device2 device3, etc.........
You want the device1 to be the USB Puppy is on.
Close the bios setup choosing to save changes.
When it boots it should auto boot to using the Puppy USB.
Keep the Puppy USB always plugged into the same port of the USB hub.
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected
