Discussion, talk and tips
https://forum.puppylinux.com/
@jrb :-
I've used that same script (cr-appimage, yes?), to put together an AppImage build of the current Chrome.....which I'm posting from now. 
(I've created a few others, too, using slightly modified variants of that same script.....including an AppImage of Master PDF Editor.)
Mike. 
@jrb
Would there be any advantage to placing it somewhere outside the savefile if constrained by 512Mb ram?
mikewalsh wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:41 am@jrb :-
I've used that same script (cr-appimage, yes?), to put together an AppImage build of the current Chrome.....which I'm posting from now.
(I've created a few others, too, using slightly modified variants of that same script.....including an AppImage of Master PDF Editor.)
Mike.
This whole appimage thing is new to me. I was amazed when you posted about running the wine appimage in Quirky7Light 
. I had to try it and it's brilliant. I'm glad you're using it. I think it makes a lot of sense, especially for newbies.
I certainly wouldn't put it in the save file, just put it on a drive, usb or whatever.
Actually with 512Mb you'd be much better off using one of Mike Walsh's portable hard drive installs. They use very little ram. The Firefox I posted takes up 217 Mb as soon as you start using it. That gets released once you close it however. I think the big advantage to these appimage portables is the ease of use, especially for newbies. It just doesn't get any easier. 
Well, that explains why the first attempt, using the Portable Browser Installer, failed. Is there any reason why installation using Puppy Packet Manager shouldn't work?
jrb wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:29 amHowever I'm posting a link to a browser that I made recently using @fredx181's script for a one file Firefox portable app. md5sum d2eeb0ef47df4fb1a7d75bd66be96c90
It's the ultimate in simplicity. Download the file from the link above, put it wherever you want it, click on the file and your using Firefox. It's that easy (Fred's a genius). I even tested it in PreciseLight on an NTFS drive (windows) and it worked flawlessly.
Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, when you get the file, right-click on it with your mouse and choose "permissions" and then click on "yes". Then it will work for you.
I will add this to my list of things to test. 
I DO believe you! 
Yes, Ubuntu Precise is essentially abandonware, i.e. no longer supported. As such it has been removed from A http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/ and relegated to B http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/. If you go into /root/.packages/DISTRO_COMPAT_REPOS and change A to B and then update your database in PPM (PackageManager-configurePPM-UpdateDatabase) you should be able to download and install software. But, frankly, in the case of browsers its pretty pointless since they will all be ancient and won't open a lot of modern websites. 
I believe PreciseLight still works with available 32bit browsers, stick with one of the portables available in the forum. Less ram used and much better compatibility with today's internet.
@jrb :-
jrb wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 1:20 ammikewalsh wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:41 am@jrb :-
I've used that same script (cr-appimage, yes?), to put together an AppImage build of the current Chrome.....which I'm posting from now.
(I've created a few others, too, using slightly modified variants of that same script.....including an AppImage of Master PDF Editor.)
Mike.
This whole appimage thing is new to me. I was amazed when you posted about running the wine appimage in Quirky7Light
AppImages aren't really that new, apparently. I started a long-running thread about them on the old Forum, and rufwoof told me at some point that the concept originated something like 15 yrs or so ago. Modern AppImages are, however, easier to open up, modify & re-build again, due to a whole load of new flags and switches having been added to the build creation process in recent years. There is a LOT of continued interest in this format, by no means just from our community.
I'd pretty much given up on ever getting WINE to run in your Quirky-light. Conventional wisdom has for years stated that for best results, use the 32-bit WINE builds. Use those by version2013, because they just 'work'. And this means installing/loading a 32-bit compatibility package in 64-bit Pups.
Well, of course, this doesn't apply to Quirky. These early builds from Barry after stepping-down as head honcho were strictly experimental. Yes, they were available, usually, in both arches, but BK didn't go the whole hog of providing cross-compatibility packages to function between them because that wasn't what they were all about. Why try and run 32-bit packages in the 64-bit builds when there was a 32-bit build available?
And then trister discovered these AppImages at GitHub. Problem solved, in one fell swoop.....
Mike.
After som more time with the test rig, it's time for some reflections. In the first post of this thread, I stated the purpose of my project.
At an early stage I also added my main criteria for success.
Some time later, I elaborated on a seconndary purpose.
Kjellinux wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:00 pmFirst and formost my Linux journey is fuled by curiosity. A desire to explore and learn.
My current quest may eventually fill a purpose. There are plenty of old machines gathering dust that could be given a second life. Depending on my degree of success, the result may later be used to supply people in need with a computer that at least lets them brows the web.
The week that has passed since I started the thread has been an intense learning experience. My previous experience of Linux has mainly been that of a user. Getting Linux has been very straightforward. Download => Flash => Boot => Install => Use. End of story. The ease has been impressive and to me one of the main advantages of Linux over Windows.
Familiarising myself with the world of Puppy Linux has been a somewhat different experience. I definitely don't agree with Ease of use → grandpa-friendly certified as stated on https://puppylinux.com. Based on my experience from the week that passed, I feel that Puppy Linux is more suited for the "Linux enthusiast". Apart from all the "hands on" that has been required to get it up and running, I also find it somewhat confusing that the documentation is scattered across numerous sites, not just https://puppylinux.com. This makes me hesitant to hand over a computer with Puppy Linux installed to someone who is not a "Linux enthusiast", possibly not even a "computer enthusiast".
Despite this, I'm not ready to discard Puppy Linux just yet. Using Precise Light 5.7.2 with a manually installed Seamonkey 2.53.7.1 to view a video on YouTube greatly outperforms the Lubuntu 16.04 with the included Firefox that came installed on my test rig. The time between klicking on the video in the search result and the video starting to play was less than 10 seconds with Puppy and 3-4 minutes with Lubuntu. Less than 10 seconds is a bit slow, but still usable, 3-4 minutes makes it useless.
The one question I would like to find the answer to now is as follows: Is there a version of Puppy Linux, as lightweight as possible, well documented and working out of the box, without "hands on", that can live up to "Download => Flash => Boot => Install => Use"?
@Kjellinux - One thing you should keep in mind is that Puppy is very adaptable, there are many avenues which can lead to the same result. This is unlike Windows where you do one thing and that's the only way. Puppy has a learning curve which is a good thing as you will see in the long run (you may even get addicted to try doing new things in different ways). The users of this forum are extremely helpful which is a very good thing but I appreciate things can get confusing for a new user with different users suggesting different avenues of doing things. Well worth to keep going and learn as you go along. We were all there, most of us knowing nothing about Linux when we started off.
@Kjellinux :-
I tend to agree with Nic.
Puppy has always been about keeping older hardware useful. At the same time, she's really what's best described as a "hobbyist" system; ideal for those who enjoy tearing into their OS and making it do exactly what they WANT it to do. This is greatly aided by Puppy's unique mode of operation/way of saving configurations, settings, etc; so long as you always keep a copy of the latter, safely tucked away somewhere, Pup is as near as dammit bulletproof.
And there's something else as well. Using Puppy, you can't help but learn what makes her tick; to my way of thinking, during my time with "our Pup" I've learnt far more about the inner workings of Linux than ANY of those highly-polished, professionally-finished "mainstream" distros, which are designed to be used in exactly the way you state:-
Download => Flash => Boot => Install => Use.
If I'd stayed with any of those, I would still be just a dumb, ignorant "user". Instead, I've become quite proficient in many aspects of Linux, and am thus able to put them to good use for the betterment of the whole Puppy community. And that's no bad thing.
"Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks", to be sure.
(*shrug*)
You yourself are to be applauded for sticking with it as long as you have, y'know. Well done.
Mike.
And can do a few tricks the big distros cannot.
Is there a version of Puppy Linux, as lightweight as possible, well documented and working out of the box, without "hands on", that can live up to "Download => Flash => Boot => Install => Use"?
EasyOS is not an official Puppy, nor is it "lightweight as possible" ( 650MB ). It is well documented though, and can be flashed/installed with
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# gunzip --stdout easy-0.9.12-amd64.img.gz | dd of=/dev/sdb bs=1M
# syncdd is sometimes casually called "dedicated disk", as an install made with it will consume the whole USB. It requires a hybrid iso, as do some of the other installers you might have reviewed when sampling the buntoos.
https://easyos.org/install/how-to-write ... drive.html
EasyOs can also be frugally installed alongside other pups/dogs etc.
.
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Fat Dog is another with more extensive documentation
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Fatdog ISO is a dual-isohybrid ISO:
burn it to CD/DVD to make a bootable CD, or
"dd" it to a USB flash drive to make a bootable flash drivehttps://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/#home
As far as documentation goes with Puppy, there is no one "official puppy" so the forum serves in its place. Your reporting of your successes and failures has in fact, served as a nice example other new guys could follow. You might even wish to go back to the opening post and append to it some to critique your success/failures, and possibly edit the title to something more on topic should someone be searching for the same info.
For the learning experinece part of my project, that's excellent. For the giving old hardware a second life part, it's less beneficial.
This is very true!
I agree!
mikewalsh wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:53 pmAnd there's something else as well. Using Puppy, you can't help but learn what makes her tick; to my way of thinking, during my time with "our Pup" I've learnt far more about the inner workings of Linux than ANY of those highly-polished, professionally-finished "mainstream" distros, which are designed to be used in exactly the way you state:-
Download => Flash => Boot => Install => Use.
I guess it's like with cars. Some like to know exactly what's under the hood, som just want them to take them from A to B. In my project, I want booth...
I'm not giving up just yet. I still want to find that one "Puppy car" that takes the non-hobbyists from A to B.
I will add them to my list of versions to look into.
williwaw wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:47 pmYour reporting of your successes and failures has in fact, served as a nice example other new guys could follow. You might even wish to go back to the opening post and append to it some to critique your success/failures, and possibly edit the title to something more on topic should someone be searching for the same info.
I will try to find the time to do that once all the testing is done. I'm open for suggestions on a suitable title.
williwaw wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:09 amwe will try to get a frugal of precise on your usb so you can have persistence.
1. copy over
initrd.gz
vmlinuz
puppy...sfs and
zdrv...sfs
to your ext3 partition on the target drive.2. bring up grub4dos and run it on the target drive. take the defaults on the options, and once again, double check the target drive is correct before executing grub4dos.
3. if you can boot into precise on the first try, create a savefolder after setting up your network and reboot.
if you cannot, inform us of how far the boot got any error info, then boot from the cd again and copy and paste the contents of your menu.lst on the target drive.
Does this method work for any Puppy distribution (e.g. BionicPup32)? Is it always the same files and folders that need to be copied?
@Kjellinux :-
Does this method work for any Puppy distribution (e.g. BionicPup32)? Is it always the same files and folders that need to be copied?
Mm-hm. Always the same basic set of files. This is why we refer to Puppy as modular.....especially builds from Tahrpup 6.0 CE onwards, 'cos this was when the 'modular' zdrv file was first introduced, permitting easy swapping back-and-forth between kernels. Swap that, along with vmlinuz (the kernel itself), and edit the name to 'match' the main Puppy SFS file.. That's all that's needed.
If using the Woof-CE 'kernel-kit' to compile your own kernel, as I understand the process you end up with a 'vmlinuz' plus a 'matching' zdrv. These just need re-naming, prior to use.
Pre-Tahrpup, the contents of the 'zdrv' were built-in to Puppy. Swapping was still possible, but was rather more time-consuming.
Mike.
frugal installs works for all puppies and other mutts
vmlimz is needed
initrd.gz with or without the .gz if present
generally all .sfs some have one, some have many, some don't need all sfs if you don't need certain software
many have a document at the top level, once you open the iso, that offers install tips.
asking a question in the subforum dedicated to the specific distro will often notify the developer. some of these dedicated subforums are many pages long spanning years of questions and answers......
older puppies have much more info on the old forum.
Having had a look, I suspect it might not be entirely the same set of files for each version.
This was in BionicPup32:
And this in Slacko 6.3.2:
williwaw wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:27 amvmlimz is needed
initrd.gz with or without the .gz if present
generally all .sfs some have one, some have many, some don't need all sfs if you don't need certain softwaremany have a document at the top level, once you open the iso, that offers install tips.
So, if I have understood correctly, in the two screenshots I need to include initrd.gz, vmlinuz and all the files that end with .sfs?
What are all the other files for, and why are they there if they don't need to be included?
many are boot files if you are booting different ways, like from a cd for instance or a computer with an Uefi bios
So, if I have understood correctly, in the two screenshots I need to include initrd.gz, vmlinuz and all the files that end with .sfs?yes
Have you seen
https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... 4&t=113244
Kjellinux wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:54 amwilliwaw wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:27 amvmlimz is needed
initrd.gz with or without the .gz if present
generally all .sfs some have one, some have many, some don't need all sfs if you don't need certain softwaremany have a document at the top level, once you open the iso, that offers install tips.
So, if I have understood correctly, in the two screenshots I need to include initrd.gz, vmlinuz and all the files that end with .sfs?
What are all the other files for, and why are they there if they don't need to be included?
Yes, which is in the official iso. Sometimes there is a fdrv in the iso too which will also be essential. Some distros also have an adrv. It depends on the contents of the adrv whether you want it to be loaded or not. So the essential files for a frugal install, are: vmlinuz, initrd.gz, the base sfs, zdrv, fdrv (if there is one). BTW - it won't make any difference if you copy all the files from the ISO.
Some Puppy versions, also have a adrv.sfs, that is needed.
All the files in a Puppy version iso, are files needed to make it a live install, on a CD, USB drive, SD card.
Some information files, are in it, to provide info, the Puppy version developer, wants to provide.
Everything is in the live install.
Boot loader.
Puppy operating files.
Anything else you want to provide.
I have seen some iso's, with quick fix exec files, for problems with certain computer hardware.
Nothing is needed from the computer.
Everything is in the live install.
After a couple of weeks of testing, revisiting this long thread, and frequent consultations of google, it is time for summary and conclusions.
It has been a true learning experience. Reading through the thread again, I now understand much more of the advice and suggestions offered.
The main objective of my project stays the same - learning in general, and finding out just how old and low specification hardware can be given a second life using Linux. The potential secondary objective has evolved somewhat, much due to input from friends who has neither interest in nor experience of linux, and often limited interest in computers in general. Just about everyone has a smartphone today. The smartphones have apps that are optimised for "heavy" applications such as YouTube and facebook. This reduces the need for a browser that can handle this type of sites. The objective for a computer then shifts into supplying a bigger screen and a proper keyboard for applications where this is beneficial.
I have tested nine different Puppies. Of the nine, I have decided to continue testing primarily with FocalPup32. It came out on top in close competition with GroovyPup32 and HirsutePup32. The final differentiating factor was that Focal Fossa will be supported until April 2025. Slacko Puppy 6.3.2 was a very good runner up to the winning trio and will also stay with me for some time.
A number of Puppies wer discarded for different reasons.
Devianpup 32 needed more RAM than the 512MB that my test rig is currently equipped with. It was just too slow. I like the look and feel of it though, so I might revisit it once I have upgraded with more RAM.
Precise Light 5.7.2 was very light indeed. Perhaps a bit too light. No browser included "Out of the Box", the built in utilities to download and install a browser were no longer supported and some of the programs I felt needed to be included were missing. Too bad, because it was very light on resources.
XenialPup 7.5 was a strong contender but lost out in "look and feel" to the top trio. It also lacked content in its help section, an important criteria to my secondary project objective.
ScPup32 also lost out in "look and feel" to the top trio. It also suffered from a word processor that wasn't working.
Last, but not least, BionicPup32 8.0 refused to set the correct screen resolution, no matter what I tried. That problem remains unsolved as this text is written.
I have rated the diffrent versions based on a number of different aspects, including size of the .iso file, RAM usage (idle and running a browser), functionality included "Out of the Box", how well it is updated, available documentation, look and feel, and the learning curve for a Windows user. The top trio rate more or less the same. They have reasonably small .iso files (<300MB), fairly low RAM usage (80-90MB idle, around 150MB running Light Web Browser), the most functionality "Out of the Box", they are all well updated, well documented and they have a very smooth and contemporary look and feel. They may not finish number one on the learning curve for Windows users, but the total score still put them ahead of the rest. The one factor that finally makes FocalPup32 the total winner is that Focal Fossa will be supported until April 2025.
With this summary I end this long thread by concluding that for me, FocalPup32 is the best 32 bit version with support beyond 2023. I will continue testing and I do have more questions, but they will get threads of their own.
Abiword does not launch, neither from the icon on the desktop or from the Applications menue selection under Document.
NO such problem here - works fine..........
Do you see any errors if you run abiword in a terminal??
Was the install pristine? Nothing else installed? No personal save?
How do I run abiword in a terminal?
It was a pristine install, but I had done initial settings (language, timezone, etc...).
I have now reinstalled twice. Abiword starts from desktop icon as well as menue if I try it the very first thing I do, but once I have done initial settings and restarted X windows, it stops responding.
Open a terminal (lxterminal) and type abiword - highlight (select) any error messages and copy (edit - copy) - then paste them here
Exact details of your "initial settings" please - which language, which timezone, which etc.