Puppy Linux Forum and its offering to users

[bigpup]

To me a big improvement to the forum would be to provide some information to explain what each section of the forum is about or for.

Some sections do have this information.

Some do not.

Go to the board index.
Look at the different listed sections of the forum.

Example:
Beginners Help
New to Puppy and have questions? Start here.

This tells someone what this section is for.

Announcements
No info

A big section just named Forum
Forum for what?
Subsections Dog House, EasyOS, FatDog, First Rib, Dog Incubator.
What are these to Puppy Linux?
What are each one of these subsections about?

Etc......

I know what they are, but not a new forum member will!
They need some added info, so they will understand.

[rockedge]

I'm so far behind on even basic documentation for building and operating KLV's or Zoneminder on Puppy Linux or DebianDog that I'll leave it up to you guys to write those descriptions.

Remember the forum's index page size. Once the text is ready I'll insert it.

As long as the page does not need to be scrolled endlessly.

Sometimes I feel like there are too many sections, There are many that have had very little to zero topics posted during long periods of time. Seems like lots of overhead to carry around without much function.

[williwaw]

To me a big improvement to the forum would be to provide some information to explain what each section of the forum is about or for.

If Puppy were to be listed along with Dog House, EasyOS, FatDog, First Rib, Dog Incubator etc, and a user found all puppy related stuff after clicking on a Puppy heading, then much crossover of discussions that seems to cause issues and and a need for explanations or work for the mods could be eliminated.

Sections truly non distro specific, for instance programming, international or off topic could be listed lower down.

[cobaka]

A question for @bigpup :

To me a big improvement to the forum would be to provide some information to explain what each section of the forum is about or for.

but first, another observation by @williwaw :

If Puppy were to be listed along with Dog House, EasyOS, FatDog, First Rib, Dog Incubator etc, and a user found all puppy related stuff after clicking on a Puppy heading, then much crossover of discussions that seems to cause issues and and a need for explanations or work for the mods could be eliminated.

I see these two points may connected; my question is about 'each section' and 'cross-over of discussion'. I will give a definition of 'each section' (as I understand big-pup means). In concise form: "each section" == "Board index", yes?

To @williwaw : When you write about 'crossover of discussion' do you refer to discussion of technical topics by the small group here who develop applications, methods and different 'dogs'? What is this 'cross-over of discussion'? Is 'cross-over' seen in the 'beginner's forum?

I would like to understand these two problems and think about a solution.

Finally, another observation about Puppy Linux. Clarity's topic is 'Puppy Linux Forum and what it offers to users'. What does Puppy Linux 'offer'? The ability to 'get down in the engine room' in a way that Windows does not allow. Puppy is educational in a way that other OSs are not. Puppy is making an investment in the future; when I used Windows I got a tool-box of goodies. I got a word-processor, I got a spread-sheet, I got a (public domain) CAD package (and so on). Puppy gives me tools, but more than that. In Puppy I can walk into the work-shop. Without the forum, the door to the work-shop would be (mostly) shut. Windows is an OS that caters for people who use the OS to store the valuable tools they work with every day. Windows is huge because it protects the user from their own ignorance (valuable). Windows is huge because it is 'all things to all men' - but being 'all things' brings a price - bigness. Bigness brings more bugs (and exponentially wrt to mass of code). Bigness brings more cost. Bigness brings inflexibility. Bigness brings inscrutability. Windows is big, Puppy is small. The difference is important because Puppy allows for learning and openness. @rockedge But learning exists only in conjunction with 'the forum'.

Woof!
Собака.
@Grey says I have the wrong name. He told me: "Your name should be щенок" (say something like 'shenok').
Щенок == puppy. Собака == old dog. But it's true. I am an old dog.
But Щенок is difficult to the western eye. Russians are strange fellows. In their (Cyrillic) script "H" is replaced (more or less by "х". So Bach -> Бах. And N -> Н. So banana -> банан and this is not 'Baha'.
Ah, this fellow 'Grey' is a troublesome fellow. Perhaps, perhaps (suspicion grows!) Grey is bolshevik, spreading revolution? Hmm?

[Grey]

Hmm?

It was exclusively about the chain of conclusions in the caption at the bottom, under each of your posts

собака --> Russian --> a puppy

Nothing needs to be changed. Feeling like an old dog is fine

[williwaw]

To @williwaw : When you write about 'crossover of discussion' do you refer to discussion of technical topics by the small group here who develop applications, methods and different 'dogs'? What is this 'cross-over of discussion'? Is 'cross-over' seen in the 'beginner's forum?

I often see posts made in the house training section or the advanced topics section which are not specific to puppy. A conversation ensues which could rightfully be located in a more specific subforum under that particular distros heading. Useful information gets spread out in areas of the forum where one might not normally search, and some may even feel the cross over discussions are mispostings that take something away from what is assumed to be a puppy specific area. I suppose this might also apply to the general information section and the mainline distribution section also, as new visitors often report a confusing array of offerings and may not yet be able to differentiate between a puppy or a dog or a remaster or any other distro served by this forum.

/forum.puppylinux.com/index.php should be a logical and concise an index as possible to visitors old and new, young and old, whether your first language is English..... etc

[cobaka]

@williwaw I understand the point you made (or make) in the post immediately below. А 'garbage collector' could be useful in this forum. This person would condense or summarise the 'interesting bits' in particular threads. The result might be presented in various formats/places. (1) In the Wikki. (2) as a separate summary - here or (3) in summary at the head for a particular thread.

собака

[Clarity]

Looking though this thread and the varied contributional ideas presented seems that, like me, we struggle to see some easy vision of what this theme's opening post introduces.

Many have their thinking caps on: My thinking cap, now, wonders if a periodic magazine style would be a good approach, since a 'Navigator' might not be as simple as that single word suggest.

Magazine Style, periodically presented:

1. This could be monthly or something

2. This could be Table of Contents delineated

3. This could be sections by PUPs & DOGs

4. This could introduce various products that would run in either of the forum distros

5. This could alert of the experimentals that emerge from time to time

The problem with this magazine idea is similar to the Navigator suggestion: Who has the talent to sponsor it?

If a 'base" format magazine style is present, then a call for contributions, monthly for example, could bring content into it periodic pages.

This again is just an idea. I have read 1000s of mag-rags in my life, but never written one. In the past, a magazine was text on pages. Today, with the multimedia ability in electronic information, this 'could' be a multimedia electronic magazine with audio, text, imagery, and video content to cover topic areas.

Again, its a mere thought.

Lastly, whatever or whichever undertaking going forward, we must keep in mind that the subtle intent is to attract new beginner and experience members who would participate on a regular basis in this Puppy Forum.

[mikewalsh]

@Clarity :-

Mm.....o-kay. Yeah, not a bad idea. BUT:-

Once again, it's a suggestion for work for "somebody else" to maintain/keep up to date. Are you stepping up to the plate? Will YOU implement, then maintain this?

Suggesting this is no reflection on you as an individual. This is endemic to humans world-wide. Lots and lots of people are full of ideas they would like to see put into practice......but almost always, they expect to see the work to achieve it/maintain it carried out by some faceless individual they've never met. "Oh, I can't do this. Let somebody else do the work...."

For the packages that I myself produce for the community, I always endeavour to keep them up-to-date, where necessary & appropriate. I expect to do so. But I wouldn't dream of suggesting to anyone else that they do X, Y or Z, where it means a continuous, ongoing effort on their part.

If they voluntarily start such activity themselves, that's fair enough. But it's not my place to tell them to do so. Do you see my point?

-------------------------------------------

It's not until an individual starts to produce something which needs regular maintenance that they begin to realise what they've let themselves in for. It's 'time out' from their normal activities which HAS to be found from somewhere. That's all I'm saying here; just trying to clarify a point that many overlook in their eagerness/enthusiasm to make suggestions.

Whatever IS eventually implemented, you can guarantee it won't be to everybody's liking. But this is where the art of compromise rears its head; keeping as many folks happy as possible, while annoying as few as you can get away with....

(*shrug*)

Mike.

[cobaka]

I notice that a common question on the forum is about installation.
In the "how to" pages many articles deal with some specific installation. "Simplest way to make a uefi/bios Puppy/thumb drive" or "Booting a modern Puppy from ..." or "How to make a bootable drive from an ISO" ... and so on.

I suggest a general article about formatting a drive, partitioning a drive and the boot sector would be reduce the number of Qs asked.
I sketched an outline on that topic some months ago. It's too long to meet Rockedge's requirement for "no endless scrolling", but it's a start.
Editing may cut the size - who knows?

If I hear a general 'sounds useful' I'll finish (and edit) what I wrote.
I'll need to read around the topic and make some screen shots. May take a couple of weeks to finish a concise outline.

Installing an OS isn't completely new to me. Some decades ago I was involved with writing a bootloader and loading the primitive files to an OS that used firm (variable size) sectors on the disk. I'll bet not many here have seen a disk-operating system where the sector size varied from 256 bytes up to 4k bytes. The sector size for any file was allocated when the file was created. (A fragment of code is below)

So - any interest in a general article on formatting (and co)?

собака

Below
A bit of assembly code from an unusual operating system:
A track may have only one sector or as many as 16 sectors.
That was set when the file was created.

* CREATE FILE OPERATION
*
* On entry: USER [register] DE POINTS TO A BLOCK WITH THE FOLLOWING FORM....
*
* BYTE CONTENTS
* 0 FILE TYPE
* 1-2 FILE BLOCK SIZE <--<< The sector (block) size is variable and allocated when the file is created
* 3 FILE PROTECTION WORD
* 4 ..... FILE NAME <0> OR NAME/UNIT #
*
*
* ERRORS:
* FILE ALREADY EXISTS
* DIRECTORY FULL
* MEMORY OVERFLOW
* DISK FULL
* ILLEGAL NAME
*
* FIRST, SEARCH DIRECTORY FOR FILE
*
CREATE LHLD UDE GET NAME POINTER
LXI D,DEPRO-DETYP+1
DAD D
CALL SDIR SEARCH
JMP CRE10 NOT FOUND, OK
CALL ERRL1 ERROR
DB ERAEX
*
* CHECK FOR FULL DIRECTORY
*
CRE10 LHLD DFC
MOV A,L
ORA H
JZ ERDIR FREE PTR IS ZERO - ERROR

[rockedge]

I started this forum because while visiting the John Murga created forum I began to notice errors beginning to occur thrown by forum software itself. Then I followed more and more reports of new user registration not functioning mostly because the phpBB code the forum runs on began to show it's old age. I really liked participating in the forum and the community was like no other. I was learning and relearning so many different things in computing again and in really useful ways. So my interest was deepening on what was going on with the system the murga forum ran on.

I worked with quite complex web sites and played around a lot creating new sites with different frameworks and tech which gave me enough knowledge to know clearly somethings were not right with the Murga forum and the server it ran on. I certianly didn't want the forum to collapse so I began to speak up about it in several topics. First problem was there was no main admin for the site. No clear moderators or any one with enough permissions to get into the engine room. So I found out how the forum worked from the ground up starting with "what version of phpBB is it?".

I studied phpBB from that point on. I have several local machines with various web server combinations running on them plus I have commercial hosting service space with already functioning websites and domains on it. Here's one I've had since 2010 -> https://nutmegkart.com that I run for a go-kart racing club with a race track.

I determined how John Murga had set it up on a virtual machine and what version of web server and mysql database server was going. Problem was only a few had some of the keys to get into the server.

Fixing this was a problem. So going back and forth on what to do when suddenly the server running the murga forum in Singapore gave up the ghost. Aged and with out https:
That prompted me to set up as close of a copy of the murga forum on line as I could in the time I had using the very latest phpBB. That is the beginnings of how we got here.

I clearly pushed for keeping the forum going so I knew for awhile at least it was going to cost some money and lots of time and a bit of energy to try to meet the needs and wants of the Puppy community established already. I want to do a good job and provide a consistently good working system for everyone involved because I KNOW the forum and community means quite more than meets the eye to many who visit everyday.

I observed and felt the good vibe and flow and it seemed worth keeping. I had the resources available on hand to do it...and the know how to do it. So with some very key help from a short list of people to regain control of the original murga server, encouragement and help from the very first who signed up on the "new" forum. I am for now that "somebody" as in "somebody should....", " somebody has too....."

I guess for me it's all about that we're here when you want to come by to read your daily dose of the "Kennels".

Couldn't do it as good as we do without the work, time and efforts of the Team behind the scenes. Thanks you guys for the collaboration

[backi]

Maybe many "Newcomers" are probably not aware of the Fact that.......

Yes indeed ....... (Patron Saint) @rockedge (surely a future Candidate for the "LINUX HALL OF FAME") was the One who saved Puppy Linux Forum from vanishing into digital Nirvana after John Murgas Death.

He and his unnamed Brothers in Arms ......were the Ones who came for rescuing the sinking Ship(Forum/Community) from disappearing into digital Oblivion.

What else shall i say..... We owe him/them much.

Not (really) kidding.

Keep on rocking!

[Clarity]

@mikewalsh, your comments directed at me make me wonder what you're driving at. I think you specifically are referring to this of my statements in that post:

This again is just an idea. I have read 1000s of mag-rags in my life, but never written one. In the past, a magazine was text on pages. Today, with the multimedia ability in electronic information, this 'could' be a multimedia electronic magazine with audio, text, imagery, and video content to cover topic areas.

Is your intent to sling mud, again, at me, or offering to help with something you feel would address the topic covered in this thread?

If you want to join forces to address, I have no problem working with you or for you.

P.S. I did read and reread your post several times to insure I got the point. I hope, not sure as this post suggests, I can get clearly, your advances in your post as it pertains to the topic discussed in this thread for what WE are tossing out in the ideas seen here. And yes, as my statements have suggested, it will take on some effort if talent can be dedicated with a feeling that it will address the topic at hand.

[rockedge]

producing the amount of content being talked about is not a trivial thing and probably can't be produced in any significant quantities by just a few of us.

I experimented with integrating a WordPress site with phpBB that the forum runs on. I was looking into a way to hook new forum posts and use WordPress to build a home page using a magazine style theme.

Automate the WordPress site to scrap the new posts search from phpBB and inject them into a News type page that is in a magazine layout.

I made baby steps but there is little out there in the form of extensions or plugins that will do this to take examples from. So if I get it going it would be a custom setup hacked together. There is quite a bit of WordPress automation already built in so it might be possible to use a WordPress framework next to the phpBB installation that will generate a Recent/New Posts front page for the forum in a magazine style layout and have that automated.

Could possibly be cool

[mikewalsh]

@Clarity :-

No, there was no "mud-slinging" involved. At least, not at you personally. More than anything else, it was me having a moan at the perverse nature of humans in general..!

The point I was trying to make was quite simple. It's all very well, individuals thinking to themselves, "Oh, I'd like to see such and such implemented", or "Hey, that sounds like a brilliant idea! I wish somebody would add that feature..."

Many users are all too eager to suggest improvements to their 'favourite' software, or to suggest ways in which their community could - or, in their view, should - be improved. But these same individuals rarely have the faintest idea of the amount of work required to implement those changes. Invariably, "somebody else" is expected to implement those changes, and then to maintain them, and keep them up to date.

I just think it's a bit much to blithely suggest work for "somebody else" to have to do.

I know you and I have had our disagreements in the past. Please don't see this as a resurrection of those disagreements.....nothing could be further from the truth. I was merely pointing out what has always seemed to me to be a flaw in human nature, because I've seen the self-same attitude/behaviour repeated in so many different places. Not just on this forum, but on fora everywhere, covering all kinds of subject matter.....and in many different, wide-spread communities across the net. It's almost as though Joe/Jane Average thinks there's a group of beings - somewhere! - whose sole reason for existence is to spend all their time making his (or her) life better.

(In this respect, we're ALL 'guilty as charged'. Even me!)

------------------------------------------------

Improving things for all concerned is a task that needs to be approached by all concerned. I know we don't all have the same skill-sets, but the sort of documentation you suggest - which IS a good idea - is definitely something that all community members can contribute to & get involved in.

And such can only help to make the community stronger.....as well as making all concerned feel proud to see the "fruits of their labour" when the objective is achieved. Documentation is one of those boring (though necessary) tasks that nobody really wants to do. It's human nature to try to offload such work onto other people..!!

You were certainly NOT the "target". But your post prompted me to to enlarge on a point that's niggled me for a LONG time. I just felt it needed saying, that's all.

Mike.

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

Couldn't agree more, Erik. At the end of the day, it makes no difference HOW many nifty bits of software you have at your disposal. Yes, they can certainly automate the repetitive stuff.....but when it boils right down to it, creating documentation comes down to someone sitting down at a keyboard & screen, and spending hour after hour typing away, "being creative", proof-reading and making corrections where necessary.

Such work is more exhausting than many imagine. Heavy, 'manual' work makes the body tired.....but this sort of work leaves the mind sapped of energy. A different kind of exhaustion. It takes a special kind of individual to willingly take on such work voluntarily.

---------------------------------------------

And that was the whole point of my reply to Clarity. Very few people ARE willing to take on such a work-load. To my way of thinking, it's just a wee bit "naughty" to suggest that "somebody else" should have to do it.

I don't think Clarity quite understands the point I'm making. Due to our past encounters, he/she examines every response from me to see if there's a "personal attack" involved. I get tired of constantly explaining myself, and justifying what I post.

(*shakes head*)

Mike.

[rockedge]

@mikewalsh I saw it long ago with the go-kart racing club web site. There are periods where there are members that are willing and have the skills to keep the new content coming as in race results and upcoming events and work party organization, and would do a good job. During these times the site is vibrant and got a lot of traffic because that era of membership had people willing to do all the hand work adding and editing all the content. My deal was I'll build it and keep it running and the club is responsible for the content. I provided the platform to work with.

Then there were times the club administration members were much less diligent. One president didn't want anyone really handling the web site other than himself. And it turned out he did very little due to other pressing issues. So the site just sat there and aged with nothing new added for 2 years. Lucky these days there is a new enthusiastic club president who learned how to do the editing on WordPress and does a good job keeping the basic content for the club fresh. And realized the communication potential.

My point is the work can be immense for even the simplest goals. At many club meetings there were many big ideas, but very very few people that would be willing or able to do what it takes to even start to accomplish even the smaller ideas

[dogcat]

Please remember that Puppy Linux offerings can include ideas from many different people with different backgrounds. Presenting an idea(s) for improvement, change, or update is essential. A polite community allows discussion and will support discussing ideas no matter which community member presents that idea. In other words, if you have personal dislike for a person that presents an idea, keep that personal dislike to yourself, it does not belong in the forum whether you are a moderator, admin, or community member. Nobody is better than the next person and each community member deserves the same respect. Ideas are essential and the mere fact of having an idea should not be considered a request for anything except discussion until something is decided upon.

[dimkr]

I've seen organizations and projects that died when the ratio between people who put in the work (like @rockedge) and people who talk about the work (what the project is, who is a 'developer' and who isn't, what is 'innovation' and what isn't, what needs to be done, how it should be done, when it should be done, who should do it, etc' ... I have multiple examples of such people) was unhealthy.

I think Puppy is very very very unhealthy right now. The conversion from a do-ocracy into a todo-ocracy is almost complete. Everyone who wants to do something for Puppy should just do it and let things fade if they turn out to be bad ideas, and anyone who wants others to do something for Puppy should write a detailed specification based on deep technical understanding of the problem (or, in other words, be actionable and helpful to developers who take it from there) and avoid repeated posts with nearly identical contents.

(Nothing here is a personal attack on anyone, even if it may sound like one. This is merely a call to action.)

[Grey]

The conversion from a do-ocracy into a todo-ocracy is almost complete.

There is an old saying on this topic in Russia. "One is working (plowing the land), and seven are waving their hands"

Один пашет, а семеро руками машут.

There is a poetic rhyme there. In the English version, I lost the rhyme

[Grey]

"One is working (plowing the land), and seven are waving their hands"
I lost the rhyme

Mmmm... Maybe it was necessary to add the letter "s" to the word land ?

[rockedge]

Maybe it was necessary to add the letter "s" to the word land

it would flow better with "lands"

[williwaw]

Maybe a "Navigator" is needed for the forum.

something like this? https://smokey01.com/newsletters/

btw, is member smokey01 posting under a different name now?

[rockedge]

btw, is member smokey01 posting under a different name now?

I don't know for sure

We really should have a page devoted here on the forum that mirrors @smokey01's newsletter web page. Access should be easy to read the newsletter collection.

[cobaka]

Один пашет, а семеро руками машут

One ploughs [the field] while seven wave their hands.
It's a good proverb. Russian language has many good proverbs.

[Clarity]

something like this? https://smokey01.com/newsletters

Thanks

I have missed that piece of very good information. Maybe exactly what's needed and announced, monthly, in a forum thread. And the thread could provide a reference format for contributors of things relating to the offering we have across this forum for our readers consumption.

@williwaw, THANKS, again, for that excellent reference

Additionally, something like this could make it to Distrowatch under one of these sections where it might attract more users:

• Latest Headlines

• Latest Newsletters

• Latest Podcasts

[bigpup]

The Puppy Linux Newsletter died in May of 2019.

No one is working on it or even doing anything with it.

smokey01 stopped it and left the old issues on his web site.

There were only a few of us that ever did any articles in it.

Most of it is stuff smokey01 produced.

[rockedge]

It is a lot of work producing a decent newsletter. These were good ones but like @bigpup mentions, only a few of us contributed content. And the amount of participation to the project was at minimal in 2018-2019 and then the murga forum buckled and broke. That took some wind out of the sails as well.

We should at least have an easy to find link to the collection of existing newsletters

[williams2]

This is the PcLinuxOS news letter.
It can sometimes be interesting.
https://www.pclosmag.com/index.html

And wikis like the ArchLinux wiki can be very helpful.
But most Puppy users probably know about that.

[rockedge]

The ArchLinux wiki is one of the overall best resources for Linux. The Arch wiki has helped with learning so many more details in Puppy Linux and other distro variants. Especially when troubleshooting.

Lots of what works in Arch Linux also works in Void Linux which means most likely translates well over to KLV and VoidPup's