Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

As mentioned above - there are several flavours possible -
but to help newcomers - I think the focus should be on a
tool - which
1) allows a user to create the milestones/saves needed to
to get a personalized setup running.
A tool which works,if instructions are unambiguous and followed.
2) allows the help on the forum - to refer to the tool
as the modus operandi - for newcomers.

Seasoned/experimenting users can do things as they fancy.
--
Would it be relevant for newcomers - to have a tool/an option to DEACTIVATE a loadable savefile/-dir?
i.e. sanitize the list of loadable saves presented at boot?
There is a trade-off here - feature overload contra a real need.
When is a newcomer supposed to be ready to fiddle with rox/the fm - and venture into the filesystem?

Wiz57 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:59 pm

rcrsn51 wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 3:33 pm

geo_c wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2025 10:49 am

Or, because many of us use pupsave-backup to create an alternate working save for loading at boot,...

Maybe the solution is to have two apps.
1. A proper backup/restore app, which is what most users need.
2. A much simpler "Pupsave Copy" app which just makes a copy of the current pupsave under a different name in the same location.

OR...people should LEARN how to use a file manager (Rox, Thunar, Dolphin, PCManFM, etc) and simply right click on their savefile/folder
then choose "Copy", or press CTRL+C, etc, then choose a new location on their storage media and right click, then paste... or quicker
CTRL+V to paste! But then again, whenever something idiot proof is designed, the world creates a new and improved idiot!

I don't even trust the file managers to copy all system critical components. When I copy savefolders I use cp -arv, to make sure all the links and attibutes are correct.

So the impetus for starting this discussion I believe was the idea that newbies don't know that they cannot load a compressed backup at boot, and that save filenames must be consistent with the particular pup's convention to be loaded. Those two points could be addressed easily with simple text in the pupsave-backup gui. It was in this spirit that at some point I somewhat ironically mentioned the question, does this even go far enough, shouldn't there be a proper restore routine? And to be honest I was surprised at how quickly the idea was adopted.

I guess the question remains, should, or shouldn't there be a restore routine?

It is as I pointed out in the original discussion, simply a benefit of our frugal install methods that backup saves can easily be used as separate, distinct persistance saves loaded at boot.

The quest now seems to be to leverage that benefit for the average puppy newbie, while maintaining the simplicity and flexibility of a "do one thing well" tool for experienced users.

i have seen where rox choked on some copy operations with earlier pups (sorry, I cannt remember which one right now) and have always wondered how it got "fixed" in more recent pups, as isn't rox unmaintained for quite some time now?
perhaps there are rox compile options for how cp (or whatever is used) is configured?

for the record, I have copied/restored dozens of savefolders this past week with no problems while testing with vanilladpup, both with rox rightclick duplicate and the backup apps

It is as I pointed out in the original discussion, simply a benefit of our frugal install methods that backup saves can easily be used as separate, distinct persistance saves loaded at boot.

The quest now seems to be to leverage that benefit for the average puppy newbie, while maintaining the simplicity and flexibility of a "do one thing well" tool for experienced users.

I also tend to favor "Make each program do one thing well". As geo_c points out there is a very useful method for organizing and maintaining saves for different purposes. But isn't a method something to be addressed as a tutorial? Perhaps a tutorial can be included as a html within the .pet? Perhaps pupsave-backup-restore can be wrapped in a "pupsave utility" that also includes pupsave backup? I presume that Pupsave backup and restore is intended to be submitted to woof-ce?

The above mentioned html or help file in the preferred filetype might refer to various ways to create new saves and also an explanation of the turquoise colored menu at boot. (Is there even a name for that menu or any docutementation about its purpose and use?)
I can help with the html code if geo_c can help with the tutorial.
All up to wizard tho and how to best arrange things at woof-ce

TEST Scenario for v4 on BKWP64 running from ISO file launch
Backup Test

1. PET installed

2. launch Menu>Utility>Pupsave-Backup or Restore

3. Select Backup button

   

   Backup or Restore v4(0).jpg (7.34 KiB) Viewed 3148 times

4. Take the defaults offered clicking the "Backup" button

   

   Backup or Restore v4(1).jpg (18.21 KiB) Viewed 3148 times

5. I did not take the compressed offering

6. Complete

   

   Backup or Restore v4(2).jpg (9.38 KiB) Viewed 3148 times

Note: The ONLY idea for consideration is to add a progress-bar as the backup is copied-made. The session drive is a HDD system drive and the operation took quite a while. Just as I thought it was stuck, it completed.

Yet, I am not sure if the backup process is a part of this program such that a progress-bar can be added.

This is NOT a recommendation. Merely a choice: If same folder as the session is the backup location, on subsequent boot, BOTH "saves"
in the "sessions folder" will be displayed for user selection prior to desktop setup during boot.

Clarity wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 9:17 am

Note: The ONLY idea for consideration is to add a progress-bar as the backup is copied-made. The session drive is a HDD system drive and the operation took quite a while. Just as I thought it was stuck, it completed.

Yet, I am not sure if the backup process is a part of this program such that a progress-bar can be added.

@Clarity :-

Interesting point. I was considering this very option myself, just the other day.....when I put together my own ultra-basic backup/restore utility, SimpleBackupAndRestore.

It's simple enough to code a progress bar that counts either up or down from 0-100% (or the other way round). THAT'S the easy bit; a simple search gave me at least half-a-dozen methods for doing this in YAD.....most on StackOverflow.

The difficult bit is translating the exact size of your save-file - because every single one is going to be different! - INTO a set of data/figures that the progress bar can read from/work with. And that was WAY above my pay-grade.....so I settled for a simple "copying, please wait..." message.

Perhaps a "cop-out", yes.....but at least it lets the user know something IS still happening!

Mike.

Booting with a saved savefile implies that the saved savefile - as a milestone is -(likely)-to be LOST.
Milestones are important - from a rollback perspective.
Even for experienced users - it takes some trials and errors - to personalize a puppy.
If you dont keep milestones - you have to start afresh - if you shit in a reused savefile.
---
Make a decent restore-utility.
Give simple,straightforward,fuzz-free instructions.
Stuff your talk,expertise in a helpfile - which user can activate - if so desired.
IMHO.

@Clarity

TEST Scenario for v4 on BKWP64 running from ISO file launch
Backup Test

Keep in mind that Pupsave-restore doesn't contain any backup code, instead it just calls the Pupsave Backup program already installed in Puppy. I've added a note to clarify that to the first post.

Thanks
wizard

@mikewalsh

The difficult bit is translating the exact size of your save-file - because every single one is going to be different! - INTO a set of data/figures that the progress bar can read from/work with. And that was WAY above my pay-grade.....so I settled for a simple "copying, please wait..." message

Same here, you'll note Pupsave-restore uses the same type wait message.

wizard

OK, for past week I have been reviewing Backup-Restore PETs. Before now, I had been using Grsync to manually create backups or restoration.

In my testing I see something that I thougth needed to come to the attention of users of the 2 services provided by 2 developers on the forum; namely this utility on this thread and @rcrsn51's utility (here) which is intended for off-line saving-restoring session "folders". I say 'off-line' as it appears to want users to use this when booted from a different PUP than the one that is running.

Personally, for sessions, I ONLY use folders for reasons that are obvious to many.

Both of the utilities do EXACTLY what they proclaim.

BUT, I ask this, here, as it may be pertinent to what @wizard is helping with.

I would like member comments to this: In the other PET utility, PRIOR, to starting a backup, is says "Do NOT back up a save folder while it is in use." Although I have never noticed a problem with my Grsync of a session's folder, I am curious if this comment applies to the PET on this thread we are using here. What are the implications?

From the Save Folder Backup instructions in the old forum:

Doing "hot" backups of save files can lead to big trouble when you try to restore them. But I've had good luck doing it with save folders. YMMV.

The only true test of a backup procedure is to do the restore and confirm that everything still works. This must include preserving all non-root ownership/permissions.

While it may be possible to do a "hot" backup, you definitely cannot do a "hot" restore. So you need a strategy in place for doing a cold restore when you eventually need it. Once you have designed that strategy, you might as well use it for your backups too, and be confident that they are valid.

There is absolutely no point in doing a hot backup unless you have a 100% guarantee that it will restore.

@Clarity

I would like member comments to this: In the other PET utility, PRIOR, to starting a backup, is says "Do NOT back up a save folder while it is in use." Although I have never noticed a problem with my Grsync of a session's folder, I am curious if this comment applies to the PET on this thread we are using here. What are the implications?

Same thing as above, it does not apply to the PET on this thread, since Pupsave-restore does not contain any backup code.

wizard

In the majority of Puppy installations the savefile or savefolder are located in the same directory
as the main install. There are cases where it is necessary or is an advantage to save them in an alternate location.

Older Pups then require the Grub boot parameter "psave=<partition>" to be manually added to the kernel line to use the alternate location. Newer Pups will automatically create a SAVESPEC file that defines the location.

In either case the alternate location then becomes: /mnt/home/<pup directory>

Since Pupsave-restore uses /mnt/home/<pup directory> to find and restore Pupsave Backups it should work with any proper save location configuration.

@Clarity
NOTE: This should also apply to Ventoy boots using a Persistence partition and a SESSIONS directory that hold the savefiles and folders, with one condition.

Ventoy condition for Pups that use SAVESPEC
The Pupsave Backup program, included in Puppy, by default places saves in: /mnt/home/<pup directory> . With a Ventoy boot it will by default place saves in: /mnt/home . This will result in Pupsave-restore finding no backups.

Ventoy users can correct this during a backup by specifying the correct directory path (SESSIONS) or by manually moving the backups after creation.

wizard

I hope this is taken as an operational understanding. Some in the community get upset with those of us who do NOT do what you refer as traditional.

I say this as 'traditional' has NO meaning to us. There is the understanding in the Puppy (and 'Live' Linuxes as well) of 2 types of operations; namely

• Frugal

• Full

In Frugal, a system is booted via its OS (housing) and the changes made by its user is saved in a session container we call "save". That's it, nothing more.
The housing can be an extract from the ISO/IMG OR the housing can be the 'Live' ISO/IMG file itself. Again, nothing more.
So in summary, a Frugal is the combination of its housing and its session.

In essence, either Frugals are a "LIVE" implementation! ... whether we want to see it that way or not. Booting from ISO where it finds its session, OR booting from disk (you know, the place where the contents was copied elsewhere for booting) where it finds its session is operationally the same thing.

There is sometimes a concept I have found on the forum to want to think that a Frugal is an install. In my olden days, I too felt that if I had to write something to a disk to run the computer. But, since Knoppix I learned that was NOT true. Further, I have come to know that booting from the ISO/IMG file is more secure as the base system cannot be written to.

All that said, and turning my attention to distro sessions, PSAVE parm or SAVESPEC file are EXCELLENT features of WoofCE distros. @wiak offers a similar file for KL use. This instructs the booting distro 'where' the partition is located on the PC's storage that has the session needed to complete the operational system setup as well as where to store (aka SAVE) the system's changes done by the user.

The /mnt/home, above, in my case is NOT the Session folder where the SAVESPEC/PSAVE= points to. In my case, it is showing the "partition" that contains the save-session ... not the Session 'folder' (aka /mnt/home/Sessions) which is on the partition. It is the reason I posted what occurred in my test. There is nothing wrong with the utility and I posted so that others, who may not have tested, can readily see what the default setting offers.

Your utility, which calls this backup feature, works very well. In the backup feature, we have the need to ensure we direct the backup to a location that will meet our needs. This, that you & @rcrsn51 provides are just what I like as it removes the thought process I go thru when using Grsync that I exercised in the past because to backup or restore is reduced to a button selection and/or navigational entries via the utility itself.

Thanks for the work that you 2 have done over the past weeks in bringing attention to this in the forum.

BTW: YES,there is an issue with WoofCE PUPs where it does NOT respect the SAVESPEC file when launched from Ventoy. This issue does NOT exist when launched from SG2D. I've offered to help, subtly, but no takers and the dev team are busy with other things rather than addressing the issue. I show this in my past posts so that members can gain the 'respect' for session guidance. This is done via interrupting at WoofCE's menu to add a PSAVE parm to 'force' the respect to locate the session needed to get to the operational desktop and have session-management behave the way we expect. In essence, this is limited to WoofCE PUPs. I have not found issue, booting-saving, with other forum distro's ISO files using either SG2D or Ventoy.

Thanks AGAIN for the effort you and @rcrsn51 have done to help us in Puppyland.

P.S. I am saying this, here, as some may 'jump' because DVD booting is not mentioned. Yes, the DVD when created from its ISO/IMG is a 'housing', as well. And it, along with any session you save to its multisession existence is a self contained operational system saving the session directly on the DVD.

If I understand correctly.

for making backup saves.

This program is using the program pupsave-backup, that is installed in all versions of Puppy, to make the actual backups.

All this program does is provide a button to click on, to start pupsave-backup.

There are several versions of pupsave-backup, out there, in different Puppy versions.
This program has developed over the years.
In the earlier versions, it was not fully developed to make a backup of a save, while it was being used. It warned not to do this.

Not exactly sure at what stage of development, it was given the ability to make a backup save, while the save was in use.
The save being used by the Puppy you are running the pupsave-backup program in.
But the newer or newest version, can make a backup save, while the save is being used.

The versions that will do this, should provide a help button you can click on, and the first statement in the help, will tell you it can do a live save backup.
It does suggest a few things to do to make it easier to make the backup.
.

.
.
anyway, never had an issue making a backup, while it was being used, if I used the version of pupsave-backup that can do this.
I do follow the advice, of only program running at the time of making the backup, is pupsave-backup.

Note:
pupsave-backup program, in making a live save backup, will clear everything in a save ramdisk and put it in the backup save.
So if you are running in pupmode 13 and choosing to update or not update the save, from what is in the save ramdisk.
If something is in the save ramdisk you do not want to keep.
May want to reboot and not update the save.
So the save now being used, is what you want backed up, and the save ramdisk is empty.
.
.

See the first post for Revision 250205

Version 5 improves the instruction dialogs and adds a progress bar when extracting compressed backups.

wizard

I have also commented in the past that booting from iso or img, including Ventoy method, is a frugal install.

It should be understood that there is a complication, which is a result of 'the housing' being read-only. Save folder or save file (more besides) thus cannot be written to the default housing location. As a result, special code generally needs to be added to the initrd by its creator to allow persistence to work with the likes of Ventoy. That isn't a simple change, since many facilities of the layer system are involved, so it is difficult to design for full frugal install capabilities when booting from Ventoy, but good to work towards achieving that ideal situation as much as we can. Of course, in engineering, most everything is achievable.

See first post for Version 6

Revision 250219
Version 6 adds minutes and seconds to the progress bar (thanks @rcrsn51 ) when restoring backups. Also, thanks to @mikewalsh for the idea to add sync for large restores.

wizard