Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

SAMBA: As @rockedge points out is NOT a Windows requirement for file management.

I know some may anger is my sharing this, but, SAMBA like that used in Linux, Unix, Windows, MACs, ChromeOS, Android, etc is merely is a user of the 'smb' protocol.

It is NOT and never was a Windows only manner of sharing information on a local network. It uses the smb standard for information sharing. 98% if all PCs sold are Windows and MACs users since 1995. Just because they have it built-in and usable, does NOT make them the only ones who are smb sharing operating systems. And for most of the world's community with home LAN networks, will need to share files from ANY local PC from time to time.

The Forum-PUPPY Linux method of "smb sharing" is via SAMBA and has been built-in for years. This is consistent with all of the major Linux distros, MS, and MAC.

NOTHING in any Operating systems mandates anyone to use ANY features that are built-in. Not is file-managers or editors or audio products or video products or office products or browsers or ...

I think everyone has a similar view of what they will use for the needs we use our OSes and home products for.

No offense to anyone.

Hope this is seen, not as just re-enforcement, but also as helpful information.

To answer a couple of you, it was asked earlier on how others "share" data across their home networks.

I tried using SAMBA, many years ago.....initially on Ubuntu, almost a decade back. This was "full" SAMBA. I found it clunky, awkward, and a PITA to set up. Admittedly, I was still fairly green at the time, so.....anyway.

When I came to Puppy, I began using Bill's Samba-TNG. Still a bit clunky, but it was far easier to set-up and use. Which was progress, of a sort.

Much of the time, I tend to use the "sneakernet". It's only a few steps from one 'puter to t'other, and the excercise does me good. USB 3.0 drives make the process a whole lot quicker than it used to be.

-------------------------------------------------

Recently, I've begun using Bill's Simple Python HTTP Server. This works absolutely fine for my simple data-sharing requirements. Especially since it now has the additional 'Upload' function. I just set this going on both machines, and leave it running. Does everything I need, since I'm in the browser 95% of the time anyway.....and even browsers have been able to access the 'local' file-system for as far back as I can remember. I regularly use one of three Puppies on the desktop rig, and just one most of the time on the lappie, so the static IP addys for these are bookmarked into the relevant portable browsers.

(Personally, I don't need Fred's Python 3 re-build of this. The original Python 2 version is fine for me, because I always have Python 2 installed anyway; recordMyDesktop - my favourite screen-recorder - was never ported to Python 3, and I have an all-in-one package which includes Python 2 that I put together for this a couple of years ago. Which simplifies installation, of course!)

------------------------------------------------

So; there you have it. That's MY set-up nowadays. Simple as pie; why complicate matters unnecessarily?

Works for me.....but then, mine is only a two-machine LAN. Obviously, the chosen method of data/file-sharing will vary from one individual's use-case to another; we ALL have our preferences, but I've always been a big believer in the K.I.S.S principle anyway!

Mike.

Well, actually Samba is more related to Windows. Linux has NFS. Another thing is that everyone is LAZY

I know and I use both. I move a lot of large amounts of data measured sometimes in terabytes. Nothing to do with lazy and all to do with PRODUCTION and $$

Since I finished my housework late today, then let me argue a little

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 5:18 pm

For any user of Microsoft/MACs they do NOT know of a ‘separate’ name for this ability to share content as it is just a part of their PC’s system.

ArchWiki:

Samba is the standard Windows interoperability suite of programs for Linux and Unix.

If Linux users use this as a means of exchanging files between Linux machines... these are their problems and "cockroaches in the head"

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 5:18 pm

By 2004-2006 ALL Major Linux distributions
For almost 2 decades, ALL of the major Linux desktops

Already a mismatch. We don't have the Major distro here. There was already a topic about this with a bias in DistroWatch

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun May 07, 2023 5:18 pm

In today's world,

You seem to be talking about today's world. Windows? More and more people are choosing one system and that's Linux (or Windows ). Not everyone is breeding a zoo out of a bunch of computers and operating systems now.
And the TV... I know a lot of young people who don't buy a TV at all because they have a computer. And that's enough for them.

I have a usb connector in my router for 5 years. There you can insert a flash drive, an external disk and a mini NAS. And all computers can successfully "make a mess" of its contents or boot from it.

My 2 cents.

Gramps Clarity is who Gramps Clarity is.
Gramps Clarity does what Gramps Clarity does.

If you don't like or don't agree with what Gramps posts, why not just move along and ignore it? (the way that Gramps sometimes - but not always - ignores my posts to him too). I have not seen any of his posts which are misleading or downright malicious? Remember that at the end of the day, Gramps is "here to help" (even if it is only to help himself).

Sure Gramps likes to litter around, but so does everybody else.
Sure Gramps likes to discuss his favourite subjects a lot, but tell me who doesn't.

If we start to enforce littering rules to Gramp, then surely we have to do that to everybody else, otherwise we would be seen as unfair and discriminative; and we don't want to be seen in that light, do we?

The way I see it, if we continue down this path, we will end up banning Gramps because we don't like him or his posts or his way of posting. Once we start down this slippery slope, where would it end?

I for one like to hear Gramps' stories about the his good ole days with IBM 360 mainframes, the amazing visionaries IBM/Microsoft/Apple/Google that creates brilliant standards for everyone else to follow, his insight in predicting future trends in technology and business, etcetera etcetera. They are really nice stories, not always necessarily true, but still nice fiction otherwise.

Please forget his oversight and overzealousy over SG2D Ventoy and Samba, but instead, please let him continue to entertain us. Have we all forgotten how much entertainment Gramps provides us with AI is not coming, "THEY'RE HERE!" ? Such "clarity" of idea (pun intended), that wouldn't have come from anyone else except Gramps himself!

Please save my Gramps from being banned! (seriously!)

I am unsure why WE are here at this thread. Better put, I am unclear.

The objective is unclear. Am I the only one seeing this?

I ask since it is unclear while @dimkr is not responding to my earlier request for definition (maybe he feels opening it the way he has, makes it clear to everyone WHY?)

If PUPs have been created a certain way for years and there is a sudden change most of us will/should have some way for asking if its an oversight, or has something been discovered that affects a distro behavior or stability.

The thread was opened with single words of SAMBA, then Ventoy, then ...

Since the opening, this has taken on a targeted emphasis. Is that the purpose? Is there some other desire?

Why are we here on this forum's thread?

@dimkr may be a moderator and is asking something of us...maybe?

If this thread's intent is to improve something in forum distro product designs or to improve methods of making forum distros easier to test and use, I am seeking to know.

Otherwise, what are we achieving in this thread

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 5:44 am

If PUPs have been created a certain way for years and there is a sudden change most of us will/should have some way for asking if its an oversight, or has something been discovered that affects a distro behavior or stability.

1. It hasn't been this way for years - some old Puppy releases that were popular back then didn't have Samba preinstalled. Can you verify this statement, please?
2. There was no "sudden change" and no "change" at all, because many recent Puppy releases still include Samba (some include an old version with known security issues, which doesn't get updated to fix them). Can you verify this statement, please?
3. Samba, as server software (= requiring the user to disable the firewall, at least partially, increasing the risk of remote attack vectors) that speaks complex (some would say, over-engineered) protocols like SMB, is a very big package and a source of high risk security vulnerabilities (https://www.samba.org/samba/history/security.html). It brings zero (0, none, nothing, null, empty, nada) benefit, introduces security/privacy risks and it's a waste of space/RAM for users that don't use it at all (my estimate: vast majority of Puppy users). Do you agree?
4. Many Puppy users install GIMP and Wine. Should they become preinstalled applications?
5. Do you see many replies scattered all around the forum, asking developer x or developer y to include GIMP or Wine in Puppy a or Puppy b?
6. Do you agree that at least some replies and new threads in this forum dedicated to Samba, Ventoy or SG2D don't belong where they are?
7. Do you agree that posts about problems with x probably belong in a forum named x and not in a forum called "Kennel Linux"?

(EDIT: forgot to mention, I'm currently working in a company in the cyber security space. From what I see, SMB is among the top 3 unpatched remote attack vectors in today's networks, especially in networks with Windows computers. It probably takes the top spot. Feel free to challenge this statement.)

@garnet wrote:

]Garnet wrote
please save my Gramps from being banned! (seriously!)

How come to the Conclusion Clarity should be banned ?
I hope not.

@Clarity maybe he acts sometimes a bit quirky at first Sight....but the more one looks the more one sees.
He has a lot of useful Knowledge.

I apologize, ahead of time, if this post has misspelling or completed language sentences or phrasing. I am a bit tired from travel and will be busy much of the day in meetings and such.

dimkr wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 7:12 am

1. It hasn't been ...

I offer answers to each numbered point you ask.

1. The 1st enclosed SAMBA in the forum before WoofCE was @01micko's SLACKO, @TaZoC's Lighthouse, and @Kirk's FATDOG. Since, including WoofCE distros contain it, OOTB. Reviewing the forums, there is little reports of operational or use issues.

2. Actually I have seen several places on the forum where I've requested if there is a change. But, in those cases where the concern was shared, the distros were in early development. And, excepting for 1 recent WoofCE distro, whether is was original or remastered, those developers share their plans of inclusion as their distros progressed to levels of both stability and finalizations.

3. NO! I dont agree! Does any use of one's LAN mean they reduce their security in some defacto manner. NO. If you are truly a security expert as you have shared, which I believe you are honest about, you also know the efforts that has been ongoing to produce secure product and use scenarios. If you have found holes, have you shared those finding to the SAMBA Development teams? They take security to heart. Just because a adapter port is open does not present a defacto open invitation for exploitation. I do, having background as you, understand the argument you present. But, looking thru the forum I have NOT seen such happen. If so, it would have been reported somewhere of it happening to PUP users. Further, as you are a security specialist, I am sure you would spot a PUP exposure...I am CERTAIN you would both report and alert this community. I've seen numerous reference of you sharing security concerns to PUP users who should be upgrading or considering to do so.

4. This is a discouraging statement to me. Why? Because almost every forum distro I have used has the ability to edit a picture or create one. This is an example of the common features that is included in forum distros. There are some common features that is enclosed across the forum with picture editing included. So most/many distros contain common functionality without having those specific programs.

5. Are you truly opposed to members asking question? I hope that is not what you are referencing. Some people do not fall into a specific mold and all "good" members are the ones who are within the mold while others who dont follow that mold are NOT good members. I dont think this is what you mean. After answering your remaining questions, I have something to share about my approach to what YOU may be opposed to.

6. No, I dont find member requests to a specific distro or distro type to be problematic. Especially if the members are sharing results of tests that may be useful to a developers understanding and member use.

7. This question is as subset/superset of the prior question you ask.

I see my areas of focus aimed at 3 areas

• providing feedback on booting and session management that exist in forum distros. This also includes shutdown processing. Its very narrow in scope, I think developers want to know and see evidence for their products.

• Seeking methods of common housekeeping for the user management of PUPs/DOGs ISO files we download as well as how we can simple maintain the session files in a simple

• All of what I do intends NOT for my personal use, but for investigating and probing for beneficial use important to member as I try to make things easy and simple in use. The intent is to show useful approaches that would give a level of positive productivity.;

If that offends, understand, that offending is NOT my intent. I cannot remember being disrespectful to anyone in the past 50 years so at this late stage, I dont see myself changing. If you can guide me to be a better contributor, I am always open to improving as best I can.

If you hate me because you find my request offensive, try understanding that I am not you, nor do I possess the same ability to contribute in the same manner as you. I old enough to know that everyone does NOT have the same skillset and time to help with whatever skillsets they have. It should be known that I may ask the same question(s) when a distro moves thru release levels or is a new release just to determine if a developer has added or change something of their earlier releases. If the answer is the same, and I think some/most developers know this. I ask this way as quite often a develop will move a distro along finding value in something that was not present in their priors. I merely ask to determine such. Some, including yourself, might find that annoying. But if you pause for a moment, you might understand what benefit I am seeking.

As a moderator, if you choose to ban me because I lack the skillset you deem acceptable or I ask something or make you uncomfortable, you have the power to wield it that way.

I merely review and test for certain conditions and report what I find. This is done no matter if the reports shows success or the steps and data to a failure. And if their changes or missing components as I routinely go thru testings, I usually will inquire.

Again, I hope this thread is not targeted at me, rather it is seeking some better subsystems (SAMBA) or super-systems (ISObooter/SG2D/Ventoy) toward better placement areas to improve search results for forum contributions and layouts. I may not have gotten this paragraph correct, but, it seems it could be the direction you suggest.

P.S. Though there is ONLY 1 question of you in this post, it is not necessary to answer. As a developer, to me, the answer is obvious;.thus, needing no response.

P.S. #2 - I ASK: Much of your questions seem to center more around style reather than SAMBA product performance and ability. It could be concluded that you have the same style concerns of ISObooter/SG2D/Ventoy boot-helpers which perform booting of forum distros. These do NOT pose any security concern in their ability to launch distros or OSes to their desktop. Do you have the same forum user style concerns for these boot-helpers, as well? Or is there some security/product issue you want us to know?

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

1. The 1st enclosed SAMBA in the forum before WoofCE was @01micko's SLACKO, @TaZoC's Lighthouse, and @Kirk's FATDOG. Since, including WoofCE distros contain it, OOTB. Reviewing the forums, there is little reports of operational or use issues.

What do you mean by "WoofCE distros"? woof-CE itself doesn't have anything to do with Samba, there's no "integration" between woof-CE and Samba, and the various Puppy family distros built using woof-CE are very very different from each other: some include Samba, those that do use different Samba packages, and some just don't.

(And AFAIK, among these distros you mentioned, only Slacko was built using woof-CE, providing further evidence that Samba is not a "standard" and "mandatory" part of Puppy in any sense)

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

[*]Actually I have seen several places on the forum where I've requested if there is a change.

I don't know what you've seen there, but if this information talks about Samba support in woof-CE, it's probably false or misinterpreted information.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

[*]NO! I dont agree! Does any use of one's LAN mean they reduce their security in some defacto manner.

Don't you agree that having no firewall or having an exposed port that leads to a complicated and historically vulnerable server can expose a laptop to risk, especially in a public network?

Even if you have the latest Samba, one day a new vulnerability will be disclosed, and if your Samba doesn't get patched, you remain vulnerable (while attackers already a working exploit). If I don't use and don't need Samba, why put me at risk? I prefer to have zero listening ports on my computer, and a firewall that blocks all ports at all times: that's the best default for 99% of personal computers.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

Because almost every forum distro I have used has the ability to edit a picture or create one.

Many Puppy users prefer GIMP, yet most Puppy releases contain mtpaint. It's enough for many users, and way smaller and lighter. If the popularity of GIMP doesn't justify its inclusion in the Puppy ISO, why is Samba special? Why is it so important to include such a huge package in the ISO, if it's not as popular as GIMP (feel free to provide counter-evidence)?

But my point is, you don't need Samba to transfer files in the LAN!!! You can use python3 -m http.server 80, nc -lp 1234 < /path/to/file or some other way of transferring files that doesn't involve 100 MB worth of extra packages. Samba is not the only way to transfer files in the LAN.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

[*]Are you truly opposed to members asking question?

It's OK to ask a question, but if it's always the same question in different contexts, and sometimes the question doesn't really relate to surrounding posts ...

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

[*]No, I dont find member requests to a specific distro or distro type to be problematic. Especially if the members are sharing results of tests that may be useful to a developers understanding and member use.

But if a user has many things to say about Samba specifically, what's wrong with having a dedicated Samba forum thread? Why post the same Sama-related reply again and again in different forums?

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

I cannot remember being disrespectful to anyone in the past 50 years so at this late stage, I dont see myself changing.

Stubbornness can be a good thing, especially when you're trying to do something good, but sometimes it annoys people when somebody pursues a dead end. (Personally, I prefer to receive zero notifications about Samba related replies I've seen in the past, because my decision not to include Samba won't change.)

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

But if you pause for a moment

Why don't you pause for a moment?

Do you understand that others don't share the same passion about Samba, Ventoy, etc'? Do you understand that the developers here are volunteers who owe you nothing and have the right not to do what you're (repeatedly) asking them to?

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

it is seeking some better subsystems (SAMBA) or super-systems (ISObooter/SG2D/Ventoy) toward better placement areas to improve search results for forum contributions and layouts. I may not have gotten this paragraph correct, but, it seems it could be the direction you suggest.

My intention is not to suggest that this person or that person should be banned, only reduce noise and declutter the forum. I want less distractions as a developer, and I believe users can benefit from a more organized forum where threads don't become Samba threads.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

SAMBA product performance and ability.

I think there's no question about this, Samba is fast enough and works well for many users. But only a minority of users needs Samba, and the Samba-related noise in this forum is completely out of proportion.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 9:30 am

Again, I hope this thread is not targeted at me, rather it is seeking some better subsystems (SAMBA) or super-systems (ISObooter/SG2D/Ventoy) toward better placement areas to improve search results for forum contributions and layouts. I may not have gotten this paragraph correct, but, it seems it could be the direction you suggest.

I certainly hope that is correct. Clearly the Ventoy, SG2D and SAMBA strange way this thread was started pointed at yourself Clarity. I side with the idea that there has been too much repetition and I've frankly said so - however, that is not intended to be a major criticism of anybody - more a request to avoid so much repetition because it does become tiring. Most of us who read/participate on this forum are the same people that are always here and thus have already read earlier posts on such subjects. Having said that it would be a ridiculous nonsense to ban anyone even if such repeated posts continue - we just to have to live with it - it's not a crime (many of us, including myself, have made far more unacceptable posts at times of stress and anger). As for whether Clarity is gcmartin, well I'm also pretty sure he is (you are, Clarity), but so what? I never did understand why gcmartin was ever banned (from the old forum as far as I remember). Similar to Clarity, many of his posts were excellent, his wish to be useful and helpful obvious - the same applies today. Personally I consider Clarity one of the most helpful forum members, despite my also complaining about repetition of same material over and over again. As I've said, despite my becoming tired of some of it, I also feel it is perfectly true that wihout Clarity's earlier pushes the likes of Ventoy would not have been developed so usefully as they have here. Similarly with published QEMU stanzas, several of which I have adopted for my own use, and of course feedback on what is working or not - no, I don't agree that Clarity is some negative influence overall on this forum; not at all actually, but we all need to step back sometimes and recognise when we over-do something such that people lose interest rather than gain interest in these matters. Also, I agree that these topics of Ventoy, SG2D, ISObooter, SAMBA, QEMU, and so on are significantly important enough that they deserve to be focussed on in one area only (for each or each subsection) so that discussion/developments regarding them can proceed in a more organised manner - avoiding inefficient repetition all over the place (which is a problem).

Of course the way this thread was started is actually against forum rules. Nothing is supposed to be posted without some explanation of what that something is about. Same as simply posting a link to a URL without any reason why... It is pretty obvious that the thread was started as a thinly veiled attack rather than with any good intent. Indeed I regret now that I replied at all to such a thread - it is completely wrong by approach. Also I agree that there is no place for such a thread on this forum purposively made as an attack on any individual no matter what anyone thinks about any individual. I just happen to be tired these days and admitted over-repetition has a wearing effect on me overall, which is certainly not my understanding of the intentions of Clarity. Without Clarity this forum would be a lot emptier just as the old forum was when gcmartin was banned. Lot of rubbish talking about banning someone for over-repetition of posts - I certainly don't subscribe to that view - and those who seem to want that are not only being unreasonable but not recognising the over-riding positive contributions Clarity makes. I've always thought that, and I have not at all changed my opinion on that matter. I wouldn't suggest banning the individual who started this thread in the way he did, but it certainly wasn't a good nor kind action in terms of making this forum community a better place.

smb is certainly a protocol of continuing importance in overall networking - actually I only learned some UNIX and, later, Linux because my research/programming was data comms so analysing and system level programming of most protocols (particularly those involved in TCP/IP stack) is what I knew most (I was hopeless at UNIX in the early days, and still remember not understanding how to mount a filesystem, yet had no problem writing client server TCP and UDP programs in system level C, but no ability or interest at that time with object oriented programming or GUI app creation..). So took me years to become reasonably proficient with Linux, but completely at home with protocol analysers and internetworking more generally... However, there are tons of protocols, but we may well not always want or need some of them - that's where efficient official package management can prove very useful though geo_c is correct that that depends on whether the package manager can successfully install the protocol and get it working out-of-the-box without lots of further configuration work. Traditional Puppy is a bit different in this respect since it is common to create cut-down pre-installed variations of what might be a large installation from an official package manager, but I myself like to use official package management since that has generally been well tested upstream and can be relied on which makes my life easier (despite occasional what some might consider 'bloat' in the installation size).

Yes, I get tired of the forum, tired of the same old faces and repetition of content doesn't help, but I include myself as one of the old faces I'm tired of seeing here, which is really why I'm not doing much forum-wise myself at present (as well as being too busy on other matters). I'll be back to a greater or lesser extent eventually I'm sure. I just hope the forum succeeds in really exciting and thus attracting new users so we can all enjoy it more without prejudice no matter what projects we prefer to spend our limited time supporting more strongly. Personally I feel that the likes of myself, dimkr, BarryK, fredx181, mikewalsh, and... the list goes on, have become a bit long in the tooth so my own preference is to read posts of some newer faces (not new usually, but a lot newer...) since that is somehow encouraging for the future and refreshing. Not to say that the old faces are not still useful, but good when the day comes that they no longer are of particular importance overall at all IMO. New blood for the vampires please.

dimkr wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 7:12 am

(EDIT: forgot to mention, I'm currently working in a company in the cyber security space. From what I see, SMB is among the top 3 unpatched remote attack vectors in today's networks, especially in networks with Windows computers. It probably takes the top spot. Feel free to challenge this statement.)

I wanted to say that you are fixated on security just like Clarity is on Samba But you specified where you work and now I can't write like that But keep in mind that Puppy users only care about security in theory, in practice, no one cares (since you can quickly restore everything, and if someone finds out that we are watching porn... as if someone doubted it )

wiak wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 11:44 am

New blood for the vampires please.

^^^

On a personal level, no; I have no "quarrel" with Clarity (or gcmartin as was) at all. I agree that he/she clearly does have the community's best interests at heart, and as @wiak says, probably IS almost single-handedly responsible for advancing development of many of the stated items to the point where they just 'work' with our family of distros. And that's despite the fact the posting style doesn't always sit well with me.

My one major niggle is the over-repetition of posting regarding some of these items. As "staff", I'm mindful of the fact that one of the biggest complaints about the old forum was that it became incredibly untidy, with much information started, almost ad-lib, in the middle of otherwise totally unrelated threads. In such fashion, a lot of this info took far longer to track down & locate than it should have done.

(I'm not naming any names. Many of us - myself included - were probably just as guilty of such behaviour. It's past history, and old news.)

I just don't want to see this "new" forum tread down the same, weary old worn-out track, that's all.

(*sigh*)

Mike.

By the way, does anyone want to know why I started posting less software in Fossapup User Contributed Packages topic? Everything is simple. At a certain point, I realized that the topic turns into a garbage dump, which is difficult to navigate. Mostly thanks to me Now @Jasper is successfully continuing the business I started, but he surpassed me by posting versions of the rc3 type

I say this just like that, as "food for thought". Clearly, something needs to be done with the division into some categories. Well, in general, I do not know.
And if there are several versions of the same program? Do I need to upload new versions one by one?
It's just that here we have such a topic with an implicit name, where to say if not here.

Worth a couple of other bits of positive sentiment I feel.

First of all, assuming you are not one of those who thinks nothing not-Puppy should have a place on this forum, there is more going on here of interest overall than there has been for many many years. Plenty of scope in all the work. It is a pity this is no longer apparently the heyday for small to medium sized distros - there is just so much choice out there and not so easy therefore to pull new users in (oh well, that's a negative).

Second, dimkr... well, once upon a time long long ago I was a big fan of a distro that I think was called 'GuyDog' or something like that. It was a Puppy, but somehow very different than the typical Slacko's and so on available at the time - for example it used spacefm (and not ROX! - almost a sin...). But more important to me back then on the very old slow RAM-restricted laptops I had, GuyDog performed far better on my machines of the time than any other Pup, or distro really. Lower RAM usage, no jumping when playing fullscreen videos - I still remember - I strugged with all other Pups trying to get them not to stutter, but GuyDog was really great and specially on my fastest machine of the time which was Pentium M based. I used GuyDog (maybe that's not the name - that much I forget) for at least a year or two as my favourite distro. At that time I didn't myself produce any distros, or build systems, had no interest in such work. I still dabbled with C programming small system utilities but I also dabbled with gtkdialog GUI utility apps for the first time in my life with the likes of Precord, which was relatively successful long term. Funnily enough, wex, which is really Precord on steroids has never been hugely successful the way Precord was for a while (my naming it wex maybe didn't help), however I've given wex a new lease of life at least by including it by default in all of my own KL releases (well, like Precord it is just a simply bash/gtkdialog script that relies on ffmpeg underneath). But anyway, GuyDog - a Puppy unlike any other Pup of the time - possibly what moved me away from more traditional Pups actually and later into the world of DebianDogs. However, we grow somewhat grumpy and long as I say in the tooth - old hands are not better or even necessarily more usefully experienced - more new blood for the vampires please.

Ah, just noticed we are off-topic in Forum and Structure council so picking on @mikewalsh for a moment let me just say he knows very well that I am showing no interest AT ALL in the new king of england and glad no announcement has been made in the main forum by Mike on that matter. Nothing against you english guys announcing you like being out of EU, but I will always demand my politicians demand independence and return to the EU where we belong and wish to be. I want my EU passport back! The only Union we want. And kindly give us our Balmoral castle back too (and all of the oil revenue taken over the years so we can enjoy the big rich parties with our Nordic neighbours - I might even then be able to afford to buy zigbert a beer, not that we ever got on, but mavrothal... forget it. Yeah, actually I lived in Norway for a year once and still speak the language a bit - yes, I was there because of a blond who happened to cycle past me in the Scottish Highlands one summer).

Grey wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 11:52 am

But keep in mind that Puppy users only care about security in theory, in practice, no one cares (since you can quickly restore everything, and if someone finds out that we are watching porn... as if someone doubted it )

I care. If the OS I can put on my old laptop is 100% insecure, it's worthless to me.

Many Puppy users that don't care about security say something like "I haven't seen any evidence of a security breach, so it probably didn't happen". That's a fallacy, and they're not really looking (no auditing, no LSM, no logging of outgoing connections, whatever). A smart attacker doesn't show popup windows on your screen and ask for money. A smart attacker records your key strokes, steals your credit card, takes over your accounts, maybe even sells them, publishes your private photos, tries to attack nearby computers using things like SMB and RPC, then only then, maybe, notifies you of the breach to ask for more money

Grey wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 11:52 am

I wanted to say that you are fixated on security just like Clarity is on Samba

Lucky me, Puppy is a do-ocracy and I can implement the features I'm looking for (including security features), and don't have to integrate Samba and do other things I don't want to.

@wiak :-

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of time for old Charlie.

Mama and I had half-an-eye to the over-blown "proceedings" on Saturday. What a load of old tosh. Even Wills, his son, apparently reckoned his old man should have cut the "show-time" by at least 50%. From what I can make out, most folks who DID watch it were thoroughly fed-up with it toward the end.....

(*shrug*)

I make no apologies for the fact that I felt Liz's departure DID merit a mention. But there ya go. TOTALLY "off-topic"!

Mike.

dimkr wrote:

Feel free to challenge this statement

Can not. My son is a computer engineer working in the cyber security space for Deutsche Telekom and I am well versed on what sucks.

I heard Telekom has often "problems" with "stuff" coming from Israel in the sense of intrusion attacks. Then there is the NSO Group.

Lucky for me the Americans, Chinese, Russians and Israeli's don't seem to care much about Puppy Linux or Kennel Linux.......yet

@mikewalsh I timed it perfectly and only saw the King on the balcony and thought to my self this would be a great opportunity for the Sex Pistols to come out to play again with a new rendition of "God Save The King"

@rockedge "It takes one to know one"

@rockedge :-

For my generation, Liz was an institution. We'd never known anybody else; a beautiful young woman when she came to the throne - and I challenge anybody to dispute this! - she was simply always there, providing background continuity to our lives.

With Charles being the oldest person ever to accede to the English throne, it probably won't be so long before my generation sees King William replacing him!

Mike.

@mikewalsh American's seem to have a fair amount of interest in the British Royal Family. They seem to be featured one way or another almost every day. Harry makes it all interesting I suppose and now he's here with his wife and kid and he's popular....will make a great American one day........

The Queen was rock solid and had a bit of a sparkle in the eye when it came to humor plus the deeply interwoven history of America and the British Throne kept up quite bit of respect for her. I think William will be a great King.....ever notice how his daughter looks exactly like his grandmother?

Plus now they can say "your crazy uncle from America" and I'd vote for Harry if he ran for president. ( If Trump can still run then why not Harry??)

It be like we've gone fully around the circle of life and ended up with the British Royalty in charge again...........

rockedge wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 2:32 pm

( If Trump can still run then why not Harry??)

Maybe because Trump, although he has German roots, was born in Queens. And Harry is in Paddington. If nothing has been changed yet, then the reason is the same that prevents Arnie

But... but... who did win the war on SAMBA ... ? Any news ? Nothing in the newspaper about it (lots about King C., BTW )

@fredx181 SAMBA is installed in KLV-Airedale-rc16 and I use it quite a bit. I think it will be optional in KLV-Spectr-alpha+ and if needed a user can install it fairly easily. I use three methods regularly and in different scenarios, FTP, web server, SAMBA.

rsync I am also utilizing

dimkr wrote:

... and do other things I don't want to.

This is the developer FREEDOM I have spoken to often in my past. I strongly agree with this premise.

EVERY forum distro developer who presents distros to this forum, does what they feel others will find usefulness from their work. YOU are no different. So I am sure you produce similarly.

Many of the forum developers appreciate those who use their work and almost everyone I have seen are receptive to the suggestions that members make toward their work.

But, I feel you are upset if those you feel unworthy being allowed to ask questions that may in turn be a viewed as a request.

Since I am NOT a generator of code, my view from this discussion, that people like me are 'unworthy' to address you.

I hope I am wrong, but, there seems to be strong lean in that direction.

My do-ocracy may not meet your litmus test, as I dont generate code/code changes at a level you might want. Thus raising any consideration would not be welcomed because I dont generate code. Thus this would also extend in what could be considered unworthy "style" since no code is presented in any consideration presented.

I REALLY HOPE I have this perspective all wrong.

On another note:
Hyperthetically: If there was a thread dedicated to the SAMBA subsystem, what would you like to see in it?
Use cases, or Config file customizations or ??? Namely, what would you expect to be deposited there as it relates to Puppy Linux?

For ISObooter, Ventoy, SG2D ISO file booters, what would you want there that would be helpful to users and developers alike?

Yes, I am fishing for how to best structure comments in ways (and areas) useful to the individual distro these things relate to. Each distro category is different. Categories we have are for WoofCE generates, KL's, DOGs, etc. each by different developers.

So when an issue surfaces and it pertains to an individual distro how would these new areas help with those issues being seen by the distro's developers.

I want to see some useful implementation be an outcome from this thread. As I perceive, we are addressing the following:

• SAMBA

• ISObooter

• Ventoy

• SG2D

• (QEMU has not been mentioned, but I'm sure it may suffer the discussion as is raised in this thread.)

We want to ensure member comments correctly in their style use for successful knowledge and operations to be presented.

Clarity wrote: ↑Mon May 08, 2023 10:16 pm

On another note:
Hyperthetically: If there was a thread dedicated to the SAMBA subsystem, what would you like to see in it?
Use cases, or Config file customizations or ??? Namely, what would you expect to be deposited there as it relates to Puppy Linux?

For ISObooter, Ventoy, SG2D ISO file booters, what would you want there that would be helpful to users and developers alike?

Yes, I am fishing for how to best structure comments in ways (and areas) useful to the individual distro these things relate to. Each distro category is different. Categories we have are for WoofCE generates, KL's, DOGs, etc. each by different developers.

So when an issue surfaces and it pertains to an individual distro how would these new areas help with those issues being seen by the distro's developers.

I want to see some useful implementation be an outcome from this thread. As I perceive, we are addressing the following:

• SAMBA

• ISObooter

• Ventoy

• SG2D

• (QEMU has not been mentioned, but I'm sure it may suffer the discussion as is raised in this thread.)

We want to ensure member comments correctly in their style use for successful knowledge and operations to be presented.

There are of course times when posts about any system component fit into a development discussion pertaining to a particular distro. That's always the case, and a generic whole forum section might well not always be workable because there will often be major configuration/usage differences between different forum distros. But there is room for a single, for example, Ventoy or SAMBA and so on, thread pertaining to each and any distro, but sometimes, when a lot of the info pertains more generally to all distros it makes sense to collect ideas, configs, generic installation tips and ideas pertaining to the topic there. I don't think there is one simple answer. The problem, I feel, is when a paragraph of advice/info that has already been well drummed in to us is re-published over and over again in different parts of the forum. Certainly we can forget and new users need to be aware of possibilities but that kind of important to know information should be provided in a new users documentation thread or threads (similar to what Puppy Linux has nowadays).

I think in general there are something like five types of useful continuing posts concerning such system components:

1. An indication of interest in seeing a component included in a particular distro. That request may or may not be ignored by developer or developers, but at least it has been made. But it is important etiquette not to hark on about it I feel. Not everyone agrees on what should be included and what not and when not included an alternative mechanism - for example package management or sfs addon becomes appropriate. Puppy Linux itself is probably more problematic if someone wants some system component because it may not be able to successfully be installed pre-configured out-of-the-box and woof-CE takes expert skill level which takes the matter somewhat out of general distro user control. Other distros, such as KL use a simple plugin build system and official package managers so it is easier for them to implement optional user installation. That's not a criticism of Puppy, which has different advantages in that special implementations can be crafted into woof-CE for Puppy that, for example, take less space or work in some optimised manner. In KL, I don't myself 'have to' consider installing anything, but fact is, the way the system is put together means that often others do such work anyway (and not necessarily just rockedge) - then we all find it easier to optionally add or not add depending on preference.

2. For distros when some system component is not included included therefore, it is good to include in a thread about that system facility to how install and configure it from say package-management. Great when that simply works out-of-the-box because configured expertly by upstream repo-providing distro, but might not always so additional howto make it work steps become particularly useful - such work does not usually involve 'coding', which means a lot of non-coders can be involved in explaining how they 'installed and configured' the facility.

3. Even when a system component is working there are usually different ways to use it that most or many may not be aware of. Such information can be usefully collected together in the appropriate system component thread (and that's where a more generic for all-forum-distros thread becomes particularly useful too.

4. Similar to 3 above, but more complex, is that there are often useful ways of using system components that might not be self-apparent - particularly ideas on larger scale usage that involves several system components working together. Actually, that's an area where ruf....I mean user1111 was particularly helpful in providing novel ideas based on his own usage happens. These kind of posts are rare but are really gems that are sorely missed.

5. More specific commandline stanzas and clever configurations that someone with a lot of expertise on using a system component can share with others. Alternative and discovered useful QEMU commandline stanzas, for example - great to collect these all together in one place. We don't all use one particular GUI frontend to QEMU, for example, so a choice of useful commandlines is fantastic (but also sometimes helps understand what a GUI frontend is doing for us too - and vice versa - some GUI frontends are able to churn out the underlying commandline that was involved).

So that's five thoughts about what such threads can usefully contain, but now I think of a sixth which is feedback/bug-reports on a particular implementation... and probably this itemised list can be extended easily. In other words there is a lot of useful info that can be collected and organised and added to over time (without constant repetition therefore). Certainly a forum is not a great place for organising anything, but it can nevertheless be done quite usefully well with some thought and good post behaviour patterns.

We don't need to shout what we want - that ends up a negative in many ways despite the ideas and thoughts actually being very valid. Rather we need to cater for our differences of opinion, which means accepting alternative optional mechanisms - for sure, not everyone wants something like SAMBA permanently installed - same can be said for hundreds of other protocols some of which are also very well used and globally useful but not always essential... You cannot produce slim distros without selectively leaving something out of the offering, but that's where good package management and expert config and installation advice comes into play, which is a major part of all good forum thread technical discussion.

Certainly, don't just leave matters up to the principal or only developers of any distro. Do your own thing - be that configuration or coding or whatever and help others do the same (but not repetitively on already provided howto info/advice I would hope). Anyway, every so often someone comes along that remasters or remakes a distro with their own spin, which may well include a major system protocol or component that the default release only providing as an option or not at all. In many ways such endeavours are exactly what this forum is all about rather than it being always about producing an all singing and dancing somehow small and efficient distro - there is no such distro that is not a several GB monster.

GUI frontend to QEMU,

I want to transfer two things from one Russian distro to Fossapup. qemoo, a wrapper for Qemu that allows to run guest systems without having to memorize kilometer-long footcloths of Qemu parameters. & GQemoo - GUI for qemoo.

But now I rubbed calluses on my hands (no, not from watching porn ) while I was changing the nets on the mosquito frames for windows. I can type the text, there is no corresponding mood.

When questions arise about Ventoy I sometimes attempt to make some constructive contribution to the thread, as Ventoy is something I've had a fair bit of practice with. I've no doubt on some occasions I've repeated myself, simply because the same questions have come up again and again. Is this because people can't be bothered to do a search before asking the question, or is it because a search doesn't bring up what you're looking for? Unfortunately on some occasions it's definitely the "can't be bothered" approach.

I always remember one incident a while back when I asked a question on the forum for another Linux distro. My question was quite simple, and it was answered promptly. Just two weeks later somebody on the same forum asked exactly the same question!

What's Samba? Never used it, know nothing about it, so evidently don't need it. So if there was a separate section for Samba queries I would ignore it, but I wouldn't complain about it being there because I know it would be of use to somebody else.

As for what to include in a Puppy, the old saying "you can't please all the people all the time" springs to mind, and no matter what you do, someone, somewhere will criticise it. Not just Puppies, but Linux distros in general that don't come with much software are often criticised for being too sparse, whereas those that come with loads of software get slagged off for being bloated.

I take a very simple approach. If there's some software I want that isn't included I hope I can install it. If there's a load of stuff that I don't need I can always remove it. Not rocket science is it?

What about two additional topics under additional software, Installers and File Sharing? Those would seem to me be logical homes for lots of the threads discussed in this thread and might help 'forum focus'.

I have reviewed this thread which has garnered a lot of attention. It was opened in a disguised manner easily seen.
The evidence:
It was opened, then 1 minute later amended, then 1 minute later amended again, then amended again.
This resulted in 2 moderators expressing there concerns
One of the moderators get him to confess to an original objective which is this

Maybe it's time to open a Samba forum and a Ventoy/S2GD/boot loader forum. So many threads are littered with replies about these topics and this probably doesn't help anyone, including people who care about these topics and the developers who are supposed to do some work.

So many more of us follow with much discourse of product areas on forum, to concerns of product benefit, to personalities and style of different members, to ... well you get it.

As disguised as it started, what are we to conclude to its opening.

1. Should we conclude with this being a personal complaint of people who do not code being allowed to participate (you know, those "unworthy" on the forum)?

2. Should we conclude that there are just some products areas he wants a moratorium on?

3. Or should it conclude with some other, more positive direction?
   One example of a positive direction is a renewed definition of what is an "Official" PUPPY? Is it

   • A PUP with the same contents as Slacko?

   • A PUP with the same contents as FossaPUP64 (ie. F96)?

   • Should there be something of an Official content for an Official Puppy?

I have come to know, as most of old members know too, that the official PUPs come with a standard set of built-in subsystems. This set saw it start upon Barry's leaving and WoofCE starting; producing official PUPPY Slacko. Then it followed with WoofCE PUPPY FossaPUP64. Across the forum many others since Slacko, such as DOGS, KL, and other containing the same subsystem mix approximations. This subsystem mix also continues to be carried by the founder BarryK in his presentations on the forum.

In recent year, this Official PUP definition has been a topic as it pertains to areas of the forum.

Where does this thread leave us and is there something positive to take away from it?

There has to be something more to be gotten out of this than a complaint of "unworthy" members.