Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

wanderer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:07 am

at least once each month (or whatever time frame is determined)

one of the completed editions of puppy (Bionic, DpupStretch, Fossapup64, LxPupSc, RaspianBuster, Slacko etc)
is chosen to represent puppy linux on distrowatch

it is posted to distrowatch as the new edition
and the picture is changed to the new pup

You're the idea man, wanderer.
But this simply won't work.
Not at the end-user level.
It may work for Distrowatch,
but it will completely confuse the end users.

The reason is:
Different "editions" of Puppy
is not compatible with one another,
especially in terms of the savefile.

Let's say you find Puppy on Distrowatch,
and as it happens,
the flavor of the day is BionicPup.

You fetch it, and install it, and create a savefile.
And you install a few programs from the PPM.
Things work great,
computer is productive,
and you're happy.

A couple of months go past,
and you visit Distrowatch again.

You see a newer, even better version of Puppy,
has been released recently: the VanillaDpup.

You download it, and "upgraded" your BionicPup installation,
keeping the same savefile.

But to your horror,
on the next boot, your computer refuses to work.
You "downgrade" to BionicPup again,
but the computer cannot recover,
and still refuses to work.

In desperation,
you roll forward and install VanillaDpup again,
you try to fix it by running PPM ...
but your horror (for the 2nd time), PPM is gone!!!

After frantic internet search
(on another, still working computer),
asking for help in the forum,
you find that VanillaDpup
does not have PPM,
and it uses apt-get instead.

Re-assured and re-motivated,
you spend more hours tweaking the savefile,
with apt-get,
installing new packages,
but to your horror (for the 3rd time),
you learn that packages installed by PPM,
cannot be uninstalled by apt-get.

More hours in the forum later,
you get the messsage they are saying:
"drop your old savefile, create a new one!"

Frustated, you do that.
And look and behold, the new, shiny VanillaDpup
really works!
No more problems!
Motivated, you re-install all your packages,
and things work again.
You are happy again.

A few months later,
You visit Distrowatch again.
Voidpup is now featured.

Naively, you fetch it, and upgraded it again,
hoping that your report about "upgrade bug"
that you posted in this forum a few months ago,
has been taken into consideration,
and the bug is fixed.

But of course,
the same thing happens again.

By now you already know the drill.
Dump the old savefile,
Create a new one,
Re-install all the packages,
And copy over whatever leftover data you need.

As you started to do that,
running apt-get gives you an error.
Voidpup doesn't have apt-get!
So it was forum time again.
The forum kindly advise,
that Voidpup uses PPM.

Shaking your head,
you persist and save the day.

A few months pass on.
Distrowatch announces Fossapup as the latest and greatest.
Not to be a fool this time,
you check the forum first.

You learn that Fossapup is a successor of Bionicpup.
And that it has PPM and all those stuff.
Since your current Puppy has PPM,
You think it's safe to upgrade.

You do the upgrade,
And it fails to boot again after that.

In desperation,
You go to your nearest computer shop,
And buy a copy of MS Windows instead.
At least MS Windows does not foil you,
when it comes to the time to upgrade.
(Or so you think).

After Windows boot spectacularly,
You visit Distrowatch,
and the forum,
to let people know
of what you think of Puppy.

THE END

------------

PS: During the make of this message,
no harm has been made, nor intended,
to any Puppies, or their developers, fans,
supporters, users, promoters, producers,
reviewers, helpers, researchers, testers,
forum visitors, forum moderators,
forum owners, their families,
their pets, their properties,
and anything else affiliated
even remotely
with the Puppies I mentioned by name,
in this post.

BionicPup, Fossapup, VanillaDpup, Voidpup,
are only being used as illustrative examples.
You can substitute them
with any other Puppy flavours and variants,
and the story remains the same.

jamesbond wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:46 pm

THE END
------------

Immediately award the author the Nebula Prize! Nebula Award for Best Novelette
No, it's too little... Where is the representative of the Nobel Committee for Literature ?!

oh well

so much for that idea

then i guess
pick one version of puppy
and update it regularly

wanderer

The idea of a single Puppy release that receives updates is problematic, for 4 reasons:
1. Many Puppy users simply refuses to update their OS and don't care about bug fixes or security vulnerabilities in the specific, old Puppy version they want to use
2. To polish a specific Puppy release series it must be popular enough to create a more users => more bug reports => more fixes => less problems, more things work well => more users loop
3. A stable Puppy is an old Puppy with frozen package versions, which receives only bug fixes and security fixes, like Debian releases or Ubuntu LTS releases; a stable distro with older packages doesn't appeal to all users; some even enjoy the thrill of using a "rolling" distro with problems
4. Users are always tempted to jump ship to a different Puppy release when they hit a bug, instead of reporting that bug or helping fix it, so many bug reports are lost and the problems that plague Puppy don't go away

hi all

remember this is just to keep distrowatch happy
so they wont remove puppy from their list
for being dormant (no regular updates)

it is my belief that when people eventually get to the forum
they look around and find the puppy versions that work for them
or sometimes they make their own version

we just need a version
that will be updated regularly
to keep distrowatch happy

since the puppymaster is the one that updates distrowatch
maybe someone should contact him

regular updates could just be bug fixes
or extra polish
minor things of that nature

i do like the idea of a community edition that is regularly updated
but im not the one doing the work

wanderer

#27 on DW as of 1308 MST,USA.

hi all

someone needs to contact the puppymaster
to tell him about this issue
since he is the one that submits the editions to distrowatch

wanderer

@wanderer :-

wanderer wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:31 pm

hi all

someone needs to contact the puppymaster
to tell him about this issue
since he is the one that submits the editions to distrowatch

wanderer

Erm.....yeah. Good luck with that.

The official "PuppyMaster", as you may or may not know, is now 01micko. Has been since Barry stepped down & handed over the reins. According to his profile:-

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1060

.....it appears to be near enough a year since he was last on. I have no idea what Micko is even doing these days. I guess others have the means to contact him, but he's by no means what you would consider to be 'active' any more.

For various reasons, as explained - good idea though it is - Distrowatch is NOT the "be-all-and-the-end-all" that you apparently imagine it to be as far as "exposure" goes. Distrowatch was founded before social media even existed.....these days, there's a ton of other ways to publicise things. And in all honesty, the majority of people who visit Distrowatch are those who have been prompted to do so after visiting places like LinuxQuestions.org.....one of the oldest, and most staid Linux forums still extant. Most of whose members still live back in the dark ages and believe you still need to build your own server/setup your own website to prove that you're worth taking notice of.

For God's sake. I mean, come ON. These guys do NOT move with the times.... (You sure you're not living in the past? Please don't take offence, but I have to wonder....)

Puppy has threads on Reddit. It's got its own Facebook group. I could point you to at least a dozen or more sites off the top of my head where Puppy gets plenty of regular mentions.....and these are popular sites, with lots of regular visitors. I myself publicise Puppy over at BleepingComputer, where I also moderate; Pup has its own long-standing discussion thread. I even had a semi-regular blog at one point, but that got lost during the great Tumblr 'shake-up', 3 years or so ago....

I agree with one of the earlier posters. Distrowatch is the sort of site that HAS to constantly make a lot of noise simply to justify its own continuing & somewhat pointless existence..... It probably WAS a good idea in the early days, when Linux in general was struggling to get as much publicity as it could, and to attract more users. But those days are becoming rather 'faded'.....the more so, if you insist on viewing them through rose-tinted glasses.

(*shrug*)

Mike.

well all this is very interesting

thank you for the wake up call

i do appear to be lost in the past

i was not aware of all the other venues

im not going to try to contact Omicko

it has been an ongoing problem with one person holding all the responsibility

i think i will try to contact distrowatch and see if something can be worked out
maybe dogcat can give me advice

i think its worth a try to stay on distrowatch
so will give it a go
but the pain may not be worth it in these modern times

as long as we have the puppy forum we have a place to meet
and i know where the forum is
so its not the end of the world

will keep everyone updated
as things progress
by posting on this thread

thanks dogcat for giving us a reprieve

wanderer

I know everyone's been waiting for my two cents, so here it is:

Puppy is hard to define, as can be surmised from many recent discussions, and it seems to me that "Puppy" being now a collection of various branches of installation methods, dogs, and script builds (that we won't call puppy because they are beyond puppy) that in fact:

"Puppy" is a kind of "frugal" alt-linux Distrowatch of its own.

Puppy-Forum's Alt Distrowatch.

puppylinux.com the place to discover Alt Linux Distros.

Perhaps Distrowatch will list Puppywatch's bi-annually featured alt-distro, or something like that. Because after all, I think we've come to the conclusion that no one can define a "puppy-linux" at this point in time, much less decide which one should be featured and how, even if one could define it.

And I think that's a good thing.

It's like those true musical artists that the record industry is always trying to attach a genre label to, but can't. They can't because those artists think outside the box.

sample press type: Would you like to try an alternate Void-Linux build in a portable format? Puppylinux Alt-Distro Watch announces Kennel Linux Void which runs off usb and uses 500MB of RAM and a real-time kernel with xbps package manager allowing installation of any applications on the Void Linux repo!

hi geo_c

i have been waiting for your 2 cents

and i agree with you

what would we put up as the representative edition
since puppy has become puppyworld

and who would submit it
and update it

i will try to contact distrowatch just to try to work something out
because i think the 300 clicks a day mean someone uses it

what can be put up as the official edition
maybe just a statement
that puppy has become puppyworld
and a link to the forum

but it looks as though our endless discussions on what is an official puppy are coming home to roost

and i couldnt agree more
puppyworld is a good thing

wanderer

hi all

i have emailed distrowatch with our issue
and am awaiting a reply

will keep everyone updated as things evolve
on this thread

wanderer

Hi Wanderer,

Contact info.

When I contacted distrowatch the email distro@distrowatch.com was responded to within a day.
I would start the conversation with them there.

Maybe ask Barry Kauler and JamesBond about how they interact with Distrowatch as both their distros are represented there.

If you want to contact 01Micko he is active on the puppylinux-woof-CE at Github. I see him recently commenting at
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/3528

Maybe dimkr has some information that would help in contacting 01Micko.

thanks dogcat

dimkr could you contact 01micko and tell him the situation

i note peebee is also on the github site
would you also bring this issue up to 01micko

wanderer

wanderer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:56 am

what can be put up as the official edition

Hello.

I think an "official edition" is what is called a "stable" version.
A lot of people test it before it is released and it has as few bugs as possible.

That is my opinion. Other people may think differently.

hi thinkpadfreak

yes it has been an endless ongoing issue
about what constitutes an official version

but since 01micko is the puppymaster
it is formally (de jure) up to him to decide

and since he is the one that posts the version on distrowatch
it is effectively (de facto) his decision

my only interest in this is to try to keep us listed on distrowatch
since it appears to be an important portal to puppy

since he is not really missing
just not in communication
we will have to wait for his return

wanderer

@geo_c / @wanderer / all :-

Geo_c has hit the nail on the head.....and I have to agree.

geo_c wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 12:37 am

...I think we've come to the conclusion that no one can define a "puppy-linux" at this point in time, much less decide which one should be featured and how, even if one could define it.

And I think that's a good thing.

It's like those true musical artists that the record industry is always trying to attach a genre label to, but can't. They can't because those artists think outside the box.

That says it all, really. I'd intended to mention something along these lines last night, but I inadvertently hit the wrong key and lost everything I'd written (*sigh*), so had to re-think/rewrite what I was going to say.

It's a failing of humans. We're NOT happy unless we can categorize & pigeonhole everything into neat little boxes. 'Cos it then means we can point to a specific "thing" and say to ourselves, "Yes, I know exactly what that 'thing' is..."

Is that really so important?

--------------------------------

And it's so true. When it comes down to it, Puppy Linux IS hard to define (as far as the above-mentioned purists are concerned, anyway). How can you have one, single, "definitive" representation of something that comprises such a fluid, constantly-shifting combination of great ideas & technologies?

Barry always did say that he "preferred the fluid, constantly-shifting nature of the community's hive mind" for coming up with new ideas and developments. Puppy itself is very much like that hive mind; ever-changing, endlessly-evolving, yet somehow managing to more or less stay the same...

Which doesn't really make much sense, does it??

Ignore my waffling!

Mike.

If you are talking specifically about Puppy Linux versions.

It is defined here at puppylinux.com in the FAG

Q: What is an official Puppy Linux distribution?
A: It must meet two conditions. 1) It must be built using Woof-CE and its build “recipe” should be in woof-distro. 2) It must be endorsed as “official” by the Puppy Master.

01micko is the Puppy Master.
He is the one that decides what is an official Puppy version.

If you want your version to be considered and able to be officially identified.
You have to submit it to him.
How to get your version of Puppy Linux submitted to be listed on puppylinux.com
viewtopic.php?t=6247

The big problem is no one seems to want to do these steps to be officially recognized!

If you are talking about what is offered for operating systems on this forum.
Yes, it is a multitude of different ones that do have some similar ways of operating.
They are Puppy like, but not Puppy Linux.

This forum is not the definition of Puppy Linux.
Puppy Linux is defined in the statements in the pupplinux.com FAQ.

dogcat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:09 am

Maybe ask Barry Kauler and JamesBond about how they interact with Distrowatch as both their distros are represented there.

Nothing unusual or unexpected. We (=one of us in the Fatdog team) drop an email (to the email address you wrote before), informing Distrowatch of our new release, with links to the release announcement, forum thread, and ISO download link. Ladislav, or one of his team, would the come back to us for additional information. They have fast turnaround; it's never more than 24 hours before we get a reply.

In fact, I just had done so, as Fatdog is guilty of the same thing - during the heyday of COVID we forgot to announce our releases in Distrowatch. I dropped them an email just now, Ladislav came back to me for additional information (all this happening in the course of a few hours) and now Fatdog's status is back to active, with the updated release notes etc.

I only have good words about them.

Maybe dimkr has some information that would help in contacting 01Micko.

I can contact Mick. But what exactly do you expect from him? What do you want me to say to him?

I'm not speaking on his behalf, but in my opinion Puppy is a community work; and at the end of the day it's the community that needs to make a consensus on what we would like to promote as the "next Puppy release" to be featured in Distrowatch. He may be the one who stamps the "official" sign on one of the Puppies, he may be the one who talks to Distrowatch, but he won't be doing it without consensus from everyone. That has always been the spirit of Puppy development since Barry handed it over to the community.

So my suggestion is just to continue to discuss here, if necessary bring the other Puppy devs, hear what they have to say, until we all form a consensus (at least for this one release) of which Puppy we want to promote in Distrowatch - and then we bring Mick in and everything else will fall into place automatically.

Grey wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:12 pm

jamesbond wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 3:46 pm

THE END
------------

Immediately award the author the Nebula Prize! Nebula Award for Best Novelette
No, it's too little... Where is the representative of the Nobel Committee for Literature ?!

Thank you ... thank you ... (bowing to the audience)

hi all

i have just exchanged emails with jesse at distrowatch
they are very prompt and helpful
they have given us a grace period but the rules are very simple

1. 01micko will have to submit the update
2. if the edition is not updated regularly it will become dormant

as jamesbond says the next step is
we as the community have to decide what the next update edition is
and 01micko will have to submit it to distrowatch

to be expedient
my advice is that we pick one of the completed mainline editions that is being actively developed
no offense being taken since all of the work on the puppy forum is great

nominations anyone

wanderer

I think the problem is

It must be endorsed as “official” by the Puppy Master.

This has been a problem since 2018 and before the system collapse that ran the murga forum. It should have been clear then that there is no active "Puppy Master", which resulted in no response to the rapidly mounting problems.

Same as the problem we faced with the domain names and collapsing web server. This we overcame by just doing what it took to fix it.

I propose once again we step up and gain the access credentials to be able to log into Distrowatch with the Puppy Linux account and maintain it to bring in the the most current state.

We have several in the community that can administer the account.

Vanilla Pup and VoidPup's series will be included at the top along with the latest coming down the assembly line from Slacko and Ubuntu. Somehow it would be wise to include FatDog, DebianDog as part of the Puppy Galaxy, all spinning around what ever super density we choose to be the "Black Hole".

i agree

can someone immediately obtain the credentials so we can get on with this

there should always be a group of individuals that can perform essential tasks
so we dont have to rely on one person

wanderer

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement by @rockedge above. Most DEFINITELY include FatDog, etc.

just for my vote

i think all significant puppy inspired projects should be included

there is no confusion
they are not identified as "official puppies"
and they have all made contributions to puppyworld

wanderer

I have sent contact to the Puppy Master requesting the Distrowatch details. I would expect an answer will come shortly.

Note, you can't submit a new pup to distrowatch every month.
They have a rule that new releases, to be announced on Distrowatch, must be at least 3 months apart.

could the distrowatch page
have a statement or list
that shows that there is more than one puppy in development at the same time
and note that the picture is just one of the many versions

wanderer

rockedge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:07 pm

.
.

Vanilla Pup and VoidPup's series will be included at the top along with the latest coming down the assembly line from Slacko and Ubuntu. Somehow it would be wise to include FatDog, DebianDog as part of the Puppy Galaxy, all spinning around what ever super density we choose to be the "Black Hole".

Just to let you know, Fatdog is already listed on Distrowatch

Fatdog is already listed on Distrowatch

Yes, I've seen it for a long time: https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=fatdog
Another example is when people in a hurry are trying to solve all the issues, although there is no problem.

Example Yesterday I spent half an hour on the bench proving to a friend that there is a president in Germany. He was sure that only the chancellor existed. With difficulty, I convinced him that if only one of them is shown on TV, it does not mean that the second does not exist in nature.