Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

@wizard :-

Worth bearing in mind, Wiz. This IS a 'mobile' chip, after all...

Though for some of the uses I intend to put this to, I don't think having the governors dialled-down to the minimum is quite going to 'cut the mustard'. I WILL experiment, though. Remember, even when I use it outside, it's usually still hooked-up to the mains via an extension lead out of the garage.....it's not often I use these things purely on battery power.

I will say this much. Although this T7250 is a mobile chip, and "only" running at 2 GHz, I'm pleasantly surprised by how responsive it is.....even when running relatively 'heavy' browsers like the Chromium clones. Mind you, I think I got so used to the 'watching paint dry' aspect of the 1100's P4, speedwise, that almost anything would seem fast by comparison!

Although it's only a few years younger than the 1100, it goes to show how fast the pace of development is in computing. This is a totally different machine, even though it was built by the same company; way faster, much more responsive, and with many more built-in features, OOTB.

I think I made a good choice with this little beauty.

Mike.

@mikewalsh

got so used to the 'watching paint dry' aspect of the 1100's P4, speedwise

The biggest change came when Intel abandoned the P4 architecture and then moved to dual core cpus. I always look at the cpubenchmark.net "passmark" scores when comparing cpu's. Both the "multi-thread" and the single thread scores give a good idea of how it will perform when the going gets tough.

wizard

@mikewalsh

One last thought, you might check your bios revision. It was pretty common for mfg to rev the bios to improve thermal control.

wizard

@wizard :-

Mm! I shall be checking that, as soon as I can. I know the 1100 got a BIOS update; in that instance, the upgrade freed up 8x the amount of video RAM. Previous revisions let the 'Extreme' graphics access all of 1 MB of VRAM (!!); the A23 revision allowed it to then access a humungous 8MB of VRAM (wheeee...!)

I believe they also revised the 1100's thermal "ramp". It needed it, because the fan used to run flat-out continuously with the older revision. Really got on my tits after a while, it did....

You say about the big change from "Netburst" to "Core". Hm. Were you aware that the start of the biggest change to Intel's fortunes was in fact achieved by going back a generation? Yep, that's right; "Core" was based, in no small part, on the Pentium III's architecture.....which many reckoned was far superior to NetBurst in overall, balanced performance. 'Katmai', 'Coppermine' and 'Tualatin' are the direct ancestors of Intel's most successful architecture ever.....

Not many people know that! (Apart from sad nerds, that is.....like me! )

Mike.

@mikewalsh

Sad nerd here. Yes, I knew of the step back. I have two compaq laptops that are almost identical, one has a 2ghz P4m, the other has a 1.2ghz P3m tualatin. The P3 is faster and runs cooler.

Thanks
wizard

@wizard :-

A question for you.

Does the in-built mobile broadband on these things actually function under Linux? Or is it only supported under Windoze?

I didn't realise they even had this until yesterday evening.....although being as how it's Verizon, I doubt it would work outside of the US. Any ideas?

I DO have an 'unlocked' TP-Link mobile 'hotspot' anyway, but I was just curious about the built-in one.

Mike.

Mine doesn't have the MB so no help on that. Actually have never had a laptop with that feature.

wizard

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:16 am

Does the in-built mobile broadband on these things actually function under Linux? Or is it only supported under Windoze?
I didn't realise they even had this until yesterday evening.....although being as how it's Verizon, I doubt it would work outside of the US. Any ideas?

Is it an inbuilt pcb similar to a wifi card or does it have a sim slot?

@greengeek :-

greengeek wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:33 am

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:16 am

Does the in-built mobile broadband on these things actually function under Linux? Or is it only supported under Windoze?
I didn't realise they even had this until yesterday evening.....although being as how it's Verizon, I doubt it would work outside of the US. Any ideas?

Is it an inbuilt pcb similar to a wifi card or does it have a sim slot?

To be honest with you, Ian, I really don't know.

I have to assume it's a built-in chip of some kind; maybe even a "shared" function of the Bluetooth chip/circuitry. My big HP rig works this way; it's one of these modern desktops that has wireless functionality in addition to standard Ethernet. The Bluetooth and wireless are catered for by the same chip. (I've no idea if both can function simultaneously, as I have no use for Bluetooth.)

Bionicpup64 has to connect via wireless; it's the only occupant of my kennels that needs to, because Ethernet simply WILL not connect (not for want of trying). Ozsouth very kindly built me a Realtek rtl8822 driver module for Bionic's k4.19.23 kernel.

There's no sign of a SIM card slot anywhere.

As I said above, 'twas but simple curiosity. My normal way of doing this is to use a TP-Link mobile 'hotspot'.....then connect to that via the usual wireless method. Which works nicely.

Mike.

Just found a thread discussing the inbuilt mobile broadband and it suggests there is a sim slot in the battery compartment.

https://www.dell.com/community/Networki ... -p/3270526

@greengeek :-

greengeek wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:39 pm

Just found a thread discussing the inbuilt mobile broadband and it suggests there is a sim slot in the battery compartment.

https://www.dell.com/community/Networki ... -p/3270526

From the looks of it, there also needs to be special Windows-only software installed to handle the broadband connection, and link it into the networking hardware/software. In other words, a complete waste of time attempting to even try it under Linux.

I'll stick with my "working" solution, I think, despite that it's an extra piece of equipment to carry around. It does what I want, without any fuss, so.....that's good enough.

Thanks for digging that up, though..!

Mike.

I have around six 2008 released HP Elitebook 2530p 12.1in diagonal screen 1280x800 pixel (mercury-free LED illuminated backlight) laptops.
They have the best keyboards of any laptop I have owned.
HP EliteBook 2530p
ProcessorIntel Core 2 Duo SL9400 2 x 1.9 GHz (Intel Core 2 Duo)

https://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/pres ... k2530p.pdf
Their processor is low-power (17 watts) mobile, but it is great. One of mine has slightly higher CPU speed (SL9600 at 2.13GHz) than the above quoted, but makes no difference for my usage. Until I got my fancy business HP i7 Probook machine with 32GB RAM, I always used one of the 2530p. It ran WDL_Arch64 fast and efficiently. I must try KLV-Airedale64 on them - I am confident they will run that fine.
Their 2M pixel webcam is really pretty good too, and a wee openable light that shines down on keyboard for nighttime use - what a machine...

Unfortunately I only have one pair of hands. My whole family (four of us) routinely used the 2530p machines for everything since I bought them almost 10 years ago for forty (40) USD each - they were so cheap because all but one of them came with no harddrive from a business that was upgrading - the one that did have a drive had a small by todays standards 80GB SSD in it. That's why they were called Elitebooks I suppose - HP put the best components of the time into them and so, for me, despite their age, they hit a particular Core2Duo sweet spot in terms of efficiency and performance that I can't match with my modern HP today (though it is efficient i7 nevertheless).

And I still have a bunch of batteries (half a dozen) for them that still hold a couple of hours worth or running power! I keep them charged around 40 to 50 percent in a hermetically sealed box in the fridge (NOT the freezer!!! which would damage them I'm sure), and amazing even to myself that seems to have worked otherwise I'd expect them long dead. They came with power adaptors too.

But... one by one after constant usage for 10 years, I've had to swap them and finally had lots of problems with but one component - the fan... Yes I used to blow it out and clean the dust regularly, but eventually the bearings wear out and the fan starts grinding to a noisy halt. Lubricated it to get some extended life, but that only works for a while. Sure, I could source fans for them I suppose - but wow, in that tightly built chassis, the fan is above the last item reached in a disassembly and no thanks to that - time marches on - but glad I .still have them and I do have a use for the couple that still don't have fan issues and the others make great spare parts. And, oh... they all have DDR2 4GB of RAM (can take 8GB...), which remains pretty useful and a far cry from when I used to use 128MB laptops, 256MB, 512MB topping out at 1GB on an old (working) Pentium mobile Fujitsu Siemens Amilo I still have.

Yep, released in 2008; progress doesn't seem so great to me since then actually, but these machines were in many ways ahead of their time (even have early UEFI bios support, though doubt that works - I just used MBR mode always). With 1066 MHz front side bus, 6MB L2 cache, pretty fast iwlwifi (a/b/g/n), fast Gbit ethernet interface, old standard 2.0 but still working Bluetooth, as well as old-fashioned 56K V2 modem support, DVD writer, firewire, serial port, expresscard slot, usb 2.0 ports (pity too early for 3.0) and a bootable SD card slot. Remains an incredible wee machines, and no need for Puppy on it - works with Xfce based distros fine still.

Pretty much everything I've developed over the past ten years has been done on that 2008 released HP 2530p model laptop.

@wiak :-

That's what I like best about the Latitudes. They were always aimed at the business/enterprise user, with a consequent plethora of items you wouldn't normally find on machines aimed at the average home user. 4 x USB ports; serial; FireWire; PCI-Express slot; Bluetooth (which I have no use for); Broadcom wifi that just works OOTB under Fossapup; a hot-swappable expansion bay that can take an optical drive OR secondary HDD/SSD OR a secondary battery pack; ambient light-sensor to dial down screen brightness when on battery.....I could go on and on, there's so many features I'm sure I haven't discovered them all yet..!

Only thing not present is a built-in webcam, but I've never liked the picture quality of such items. Much prefer my Logitech c920 HD 'Pro' USB webcam anyway.....

Best is probably the "dock"; an item that allows you to plug all your peripherals into it in your office, and lets you take the laptop out on the road while leaving everything connected. Come home, drop it back onto the "dock" and.....you're fully-functional once again. Astonishing for a machine from 13-14 years ago. I have to agree with you, in that I too don't think there's really been so much in the way of progress over the intervening years. 2005-2015 was probably the sweet-spot for technical innovation....and these machines - both yours and mine - were produced smack in the middle of that period.

Mike.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:02 am

2005-2015 was probably the sweet-spot for technical innovation....and these machines - both yours and mine - were produced smack in the middle of that period.

I tend to agree with that. I realise that some (but not all) of us now have some newer machines so a lot of what Puppy and similarly 'small/efficient' distros were particularly important for tends to have faded somewhat. However, these machines still in that 'sweet spot' area are kind of like back when the Pentium III to Pentium mobile style of machine were the sweet spot of ten years ago. Back then though many of us had nothing else so the forum discussions were vitally important for us to all keep our machines going - that in a way made it the golden days of this forum in terms of needed and interesting discussion. Having said that, this thread was immediately popular, which shows a lot of remaining enthusiasm for keeping somewhat old but still very useful machines going - and even though I, for example, have a laptop now that pretty much does all I'm likely to need for the next ten years still a backup of older sweet spot status remains very useful to me personally, and especially when I can use it simply as a client machine via vnc and virtualGL (which allows the high end graphics processing to be done on my more powerful new laptop so the old machine just as useful as the new).

Anyway, I'm inspired to try KLV-Airedale on my old Core2Duo (once I sort out one whose fan hasn't given up the ghost) - not sure if will be fine with Xfce, but am pretty confident the also available Openbox/tint2 KLV-Airedale alternative will remain pretty speedy. May be some firmware issues, but Void Linux almost certainly able to supply all I might need still for that machine. Makes me think we shouldn't just have random threads re: that class of machine - a section set aside from them might be as active as anywhere else on this forum because not everyone has or can afford new machines (any more than they could back in the days when Pentium III and Pentium mobile class of machine were themselves already ten years old or more).

In a way, it may be that this forum is no longer really targetting any particular class of machine. That may be a mistake since lots of distros out there that work beautifully on newer hardware so I still think this focus on woof-CE enhancing Puppy Linux is a very narrow one that isn't hitting an audience target, whereas continuing to aim primarily overall (whatever distro here) at 2005 to 2015 era machines gives a focus that involves a lot of focussed ideas and solutions - in other words what used to be the main reason Puppy Linux once rose to importance against other less potent attempts made for similar reasons (thinking of Slitaz, Damn Small Linux, leading I suppose to tinycorelinux, but these were too limiting and Puppy got it right back in these early days in terms of that market).

However, machines from 2005 to 2015 are relatively powerful so single-user cut-down apps and so on really not appropriate overall - and despite all of us safely using Linux for so long without virus- issues, such matters are changing and as we all know the struggle to run some larger apps as root user becomes also very problematic and time-consuming to deal with... Still that sweet spot target market for this forum to take advantage of, but not by old design that was intended for much earlier machines, sorry. Yet there is no doubt some changes that are taking place do help - I'm just not myself convinced with single-user approach with pseudo spot and so on - becomes a pain rather than a help.

Woof-CE was NOT how Puppy started. Woof-CE should not define what Puppy becomes if it is itself a limiting factor in terms of a new kind of Pup that addresses that 'sweet spot' class of machines - that sweet spot becoming ever so much more modern, but still ten years older than whatever current is. Puppy should cast of that single-user mantle and move towards full multi-user capability, however that is achieved - no size benefit from being single-user only - no benefit at all in fact - you can still arrange any multi-user system to be root desktop when you want it, but also not have to hack around trying to get browsers and media players to run properly with less-than-perfect pseudo spot type hacks. Really that is painful and the likes of rockedge's database apps no doubt also benefit from better multi-user support. Time Puppy was re-invented at its very core, despite still 'working' and able to build old-type Pup designs... time running out for that surely. Silly thing is - Pups are now adopting official package managers but without true multi-user capability!!! Personally I'll use KLV-Airedale - it can be fashioned into a Pup-lookalike without any difficulty at all, but main thing for me is its efficiency and performance on my machines. EDIT: and yes, works fine on my 2008 lappy even with its default Xfce desktop - amazing really: viewtopic.php?p=68013#p68013

Of course I know that some do not want any new Puppy to be designed to meet the needs of today. That's fine, but those with that view are simply living in the past (along with old Slitaz and old tinycorelinux for that matter). Puppy needs a new build system that removes the limitations of old woof-CE - there is a limit what can be done to that old beast, and that is a limiting factor to Puppy future IMO. The old single-user core needs redesigned and woof-CE really would be better abandoned and re-thought in the process rather than being used to define what Puppy is. However, in the woof-CE view of the Puppy world any new design is destined to be referred to as a Dog!!! Oh well.

@dimkr / @wiak :-

Guys, I've split the rest of this discussion off to a new topic in the VanillaDPup thread as suggested. Not that I have any objection to the discussion, but it's not what I originally started this thread about.

I appreciate that developer-type discussion has a tendency to get started absolutely anywhere in these forums - it's the nature of our community, after all, and we certainly don't want to lose some valuable talking points! - but I feel the remaining discussion is probably better in the relevant section.....and will make it easier for everyone to find, instead of being buried in the middle of an otherwise unrelated thread (which so often happens with us).

New thread is here:-

viewtopic.php?t=6933

Let me know if you think the title needs changing.

Mike.

mikewalsh wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:43 am

Guys, I've split the rest of this discussion off to a new topic in the VanillaDPup thread as suggested. Not that I have any objection to the discussion, but it's not what I originally started this thread about.

That's fine - it had indeed drifted for a few posts and I indicated as much but was too lazy to move anything myself. Also I had also drifted a bit discussing my HP Elitebook 2008 machine, though there was some relevance there. One thing that did strike me was that this thread interested quite a few members; made me wonder if the forum should alter its focus - at least have a section for old machine resurrections since that is an interesting area that remains attractive for that age of machine. I'm afraid I think we all made a mistake not radically altering the format of the forum discussion sections at the time this new forum began since discussion is really what a forum is about, much more that than about any distro particularly. I won't say more about such matters though - what may be may be.

@wiak :-

Yes, I think that's a valid discussion point in itself. Just as time itself has moved on, the "target" pool of hardware for Puppy "resurrection" has also moved on.

As best as I can figure it out, the original hardware pool for Puppy would have been mid-to-late 90s/very early 2000s, when Pup was launched back in 2004. The ideal target pool now is probably mid-to-late 2000s/mid-to-late 2010s; still 'elderly' by the standards of those who insist on having the newest, cutting-edge gear all the time, yet new enough - as we've already discussed - to have an amazing amount of really useful features, and which are still plenty good enough to be useful as regular 'daily drivers', when treated sympathetically and kitted out with something like a lightweight Linux distro.

Treated in such a manner, many should easily have several years of life left in them yet. I fully expect this D630 to last me until the end of this decade, so long as I use it with respect.

Wishful thinking, perhaps? I don't know. Certainly, this particular example appears to have had a relatively easy life, and with the exception of the odd scratch or scuff mark here & there, is generally in remarkable condition for its age. I'm really very pleased with it, and in running it I'm helping to keep another piece of hardware useful and out of the clutches of the recyclers.....

Mike.