Is it possible to have a working pupsave on a Ventoy USB?

[Phoenix]

I wonder whether it would find it if you created your desired savefile by hand.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/question ... -container

[Jean-Louis CANONNE]

Hi Phoenix, hi everybody. Thanks for your very intersting link. Could try using such a container, maybe i will do it. First need to read and go further in the understanding of what it matters.
This day, my fossapup keeps saving sessions on the sda3 partition on the ventoy usb key. This partition is formatted in ext3 as the first partition, the ventoy partition also is.
I had many difficulties before succeding about this.
The success isn't complete yet. I used a sfs save file already obtained with a previous installation of fossapup on a dedicated usb flashdrive. I have copied this file on the third partition. I haven't gotten yet a "native" savefile.
This file has been recognised and used by fossapup during his loading. I have been able to increas successful his size and and use this new increased file again.
During the ventoy first step, i use no persistence option. i wait as it was adviced in many posts that after a first grub screen proposal the fossapup menu appears. I hit at that moment the e key not twice but once, otherwise, a "e" is typed in the text editor at the beginning of his text and i have to remove it. (Not to forget in case)
Second difference with what was proposed (maybe works on english keyboard but not on my french keyboard), for me, the space bar gives only space for me, nothing else.
I move with the arrow keys and too with the end of line or the line start keys.
I place the cursor after the pmedia=cd command, just one space and i type: psave=sda3
the, i press either the F10 key (the simplest) or Ctrl+X .
Both work and let fossapup boot.
I was very happy when i saw that fossapup had used the savefile and worked well, but yesterday in the evening it didn't work anymore. I don't know why. Maybe I had done something wrong Didn't find it. This days it works again well. I hope it will continue well.
I never succeeded when i tried to type psave=sda1. Meanwhile, sda1, the ventoy partition is in ext3 too. When fossapup is booted using this ventoy flash drive I'm working on, this partition can't be acceeded. Only sda3 can be used yet.
My flasdrive is on a hub, not yet directly on my tower. It seems that it changed nothing when that failed.
Next steps could be for me verify what happens when i have put two different fossapus sfs save files on sda3. I hope this could allow becoming a choice between either one of this two files or creating a new savefiles as it happened on a simple usb fossa or orther puppy installation whithout ventoy.
During what i have tried, i obtained some suprising windows. Join two, for fun

An unusual choice for me.jpg (70.33 KiB) Viewed 1557 times

Stronger.jpg (49.18 KiB) Viewed 1557 times

I don't know if Clarity received the files he wanted. I think i will join this bootkernle. log and PSTATE files in a next post.
Many thanks to everybody for your interest.

[Jean-Louis CANONNE]

Hi everybody, I'm sorry about how long it took me to go further. Had some disappointment when the USB key I worked with was unfortunately erased as I was trying to install Ventoy on a defective or suspect SSD. It took me a while to get back.

Something good came from this misadventure: It works again, and this is reliable about creating and using a save folder for FossaPup using Ventoy on a USB key.

The third partition on my USB Ventoy keys is formatted in ext4.
I have placed the Fossapup ISO after checking that it was not corrupted and after checking it was a 64bit ISO too.
I use no persistence choice when I launch FossaPup from Ventoy. I left this behind for now. However, my .json file is ready for this and I have prepared a 1 go persistence.dat backend file, which is already in the first Ventoy partition.
I follow the track stevie pup has proposed. Just launch Fossapup without persistence from Ventoy. I pass up a first display until I get a first FossaPup display with some choices shortly proposed. As soon as this display appears, I hit once the "e" key once, as I previously said. What appears is quite similar to a terminal with at the top: setparams 'fossapup64 9.5 - Copy SFS files to RAM'
The second line already contains: linux /vmlinuz pfix=copy,fsk pmedia=cd
I simply add at the end of this second line psave=sda3
I have to avoid typing a "q" in place of "a" (French keyboard)
In this situation, I have no other storage device connected with my motherboard.
I let the third line unchanged: initrd/initrd.gz.
Just have then to type either Ctrl-x or F10 to boot.
So I configure FossaPup with language, keyboard and so on. As I quit, I become the normal choice between saving in a folder or in a file. I choose the recommended folder option and it works.
Each time I boot up again, I use the same process.
I use an usb3 hub, yet it works.
If for some unknown reason FossaPup starts without using the save file, the solution found consist in interrupting the power supply a sufficient time (until the power LEDs turn off) and then reboot. For now, it works. I suppose some elements are kept in memory in the motherboard. Had previously to do that after some disorder concerning EasyOS installed on a microsd card.
Last thing for this message: completely unsuccessful till now with BionicPup. For me, secondary interest at this point.
Hope being able next sending some files or elements as Clarity wished. I have to first search again and copy those files or elements.
Go further could dispense with having to type the "psave=sda3" command at each boot.
Apologies if my English is poor or approximate.
Thanks to all for your help.
Cordial greetings

[stevie pup]

I follow the track stevie pup has proposed.

Thank you for the comment Jean-Louis but I don't deserve the credit for this. The info I sent over to you was simply my interpretation of the guidelines given by Clarity, and also some input from Wizard, so it's those two that should get the credit.

Although my trial with Fossapup was successful I have also failed with Bionic32. It is definitely creating the save folder, but when I reboot it isn't recognising it. Whether or not the situation is any different with Bionic64 I don't know, I haven't had chance to try that yet.

[wizard]

@stevie pup

If you haven't already seen it, take a look at this "howto" viewtopic.php?t=5352

wizard

[Clarity]

You should find this a good easy to follow guide with pictures for understanding.

Please remember to put ALL of your ISOs in a /BOOTISOS folder on Ventoy's partition #1. Good to know when seeking help for PUPPY issues that arise, periodically.

Also, this forum thread by @tosim has very good information as well for Ventoy users.

[stevie pup]

@stevie pup
If you haven't already seen it, take a look at this "howto" viewtopic.php?t=5352
wizard

You should find this a good easy to follow guide with pictures for understanding.

Please remember to put ALL of your ISOs in a /BOOTISOS folder on Ventoy's partition #1. Good to know when seeking help for PUPPY issues that arise, periodically.

Also, this forum thread by @tosim has very good information as well for Ventoy users.

Yes I've seen both of those, and followed them to the letter. As I say, works perfectly with Fossa but not with Bionic32. But hold on before anyone possibly wastes their time looking into it any further, I've just discovered something else. I've booted Bionic on a different machine, and what's displayed on screen when I start the boot process isn't the same as on the other machine. For example, on one machine I can start by pressing the 'e' key twice, but the other machine won't respond to that and I have to press the tab key.

What on earth is going on I really don't know yet, and it may well be next weekend before I get chance to delve further. I may well wipe everything and start again from scratch. I will keep you posted.

[Clarity]

Ah, yes. Bionic was created BEFORE the modern WoofCE PUPs and even though it boots to desktop, its internal operations are different. Later, today, I will take a look. I have never used or tested Bionic as I joined about the time of FossaPUP64, and the DOGs (circa 2020+) you currently see in the forum. I have not had any reason to use any older PUPs when I started as the newer PUPs-DOGs contained newer versions of packaging than the older BIONIC.

Will look and get back in a few ...

BTW: If it boots, I will NOT be session saving to my booted USB stick for some very obvious reasons...in my case.

[Phoenix]

@stevie pup
If you haven't already seen it, take a look at this "howto" viewtopic.php?t=5352
wizard

You should find this a good easy to follow guide with pictures for understanding.

Please remember to put ALL of your ISOs in a /BOOTISOS folder on Ventoy's partition #1. Good to know when seeking help for PUPPY issues that arise, periodically.

Also, this forum thread by @tosim has very good information as well for Ventoy users.

Yes I've seen both of those, and followed them to the letter. As I say, works perfectly with Fossa but not with Bionic32. But hold on before anyone possibly wastes their time looking into it any further, I've just discovered something else. I've booted Bionic on a different machine, and what's displayed on screen when I start the boot process isn't the same as on the other machine. For example, on one machine I can start by pressing the 'e' key twice, but the other machine won't respond to that and I have to press the tab key.

What on earth is going on I really don't know yet, and it may well be next weekend before I get chance to delve further. I may well wipe everything and start again from scratch. I will keep you posted.

Bionic has more than one bootloader, although I'm not exactly certain why, besides compatibility.

[Clarity]

Bionic has more than one bootloader, although I'm not exactly certain why, besides compatibility.

The inability to let go of the past. Its in all current PUPs. As an OLDie, I understand it, yet I shouldn't accept it...but I am proof of it as well.

[wizard]

@stevie pup

Just confirming for you that my test of Bionic 8 32bit on Ventoy using psave= would create the save file, but would not load it on reboot (also using "psave=" on reboot).

EDIT 220328
Bionic 8 64bit will not load a save file either

Thanks
wizard

[stevie pup]

@stevie pup

Just confirming for you that my test of Bionic 8 32bit on Ventoy using psave= would create the save file, but would not load it on reboot (also using "psave=" on reboot).

EDIT 220328
Bionic 8 64bit will not load a save file either

Thanks
wizard

Yes, same problem I had. Oh well, not to worry, at least it shows it wasn't just me (wouldn't be the first time), and it's saved me the bother of trying Bionic64 at the weekend.

Thank you to both you and Clarity for the time you've put into this Ventoy issue.

[Jean-Louis CANONNE]

Hi Steevie, Hi everybody

I also confirm that using Bionic pup with Ventoy, it is possible to obtain a save file creation using psave=sda3, but I have no success about loading it at the reboot, even if I use psave= sda.
However, it works fine for me using either Fossapup or slacko64-7, but always if using psave=sda3 at each boot in order to allow the save file to be loaded.

Special attention about Fatdog. It took me a while to try to figure it out.
But I wish first explain how I prepared the USB key for the tests. This a 64 GB USB key.
About Ventoy, I used the last (1.0.88) version.
I used Ventoy choosing a 30 GB unallocated space, a GPT partition type.
I formatted the first partition named Ventoy and without label from exFAT to ext4. The label Ventoy seems to have disappeared (forgotten perhaps) when reformatting in ext4. Now fixed. Flag: msftdata.
No modification about the second partition, named VENTOYEFI, labeled VENTOYEFI, in fat 16 and with flags msftdata and hidden
I created in the unallocated space a third 20 GB partition in ext4, named PERSISTENCE and with label Persistence, with no flag
At least, too a fourth 10 GB partition in fat 32 named REMISE without label without flag too.
I created a BOOTISOS folder in the first partition and I placed all the ISOs in it.
About Fatdog, I placed two ISOs: Fatdog 64-801 and Fatdog 64-813.
Launching Ventoy, I chose normal boot from the Ventoy menu at each time. (Did the same when I used Fossa and Slacko).
Fatdog seems to be the only one who is able without “psave=sda3” to offer a backup that will be effective.
Most surprising maybe, when I use the 64-801 ISO, it finds next the backup files itself without any intervention.
On the other hand, when I use the 64-813 version, I have to choose in the intermediate menu of grub (the second grub screen that appears) entitled start fatdog64:” *Fatdog with save file in USB device”.
If I omit this, Fatdog 64-801 can't find the backup file and start de novo.
This makes me think that there has been an evolution in Fatdog, between the two versions here used, which is a possible key to understanding more of what is at stake in the subject that interests us.
I do not have the knowledge to exploit this possible track which I would however be interested in exploring.
Maybe someone could go further and more easily find an interesting lead.
Thank you all for your attention and your availability.
Cordial greetings

[peebee]

Bionic is getting very old....
Suggest you try JammyPup32 or if you must stick with BionicPup try BionicPup32NG-8.1

[Clarity]

... try BionicPup32NG-8.1

I agree with the 'old' part as this distro does not conform to the newer WoofCE formats for the last 3-4 years.

BionicPup32 in all of its forms does NOT match even the boot stanzas of any modern PUP. This is just 1 of this old PUP's drawbacks with the other additional problems it has holding it back.

And with the limited PUP development resources, there just isn't enough time in the day to do all of this retrofitting. But, I admire those that do try as best they can to keep 32bit hope alive.

To bring this back from its old age means a WoofCE development effort to address building this old distro in some attempt to keep it alive adding this workload to it current efforts afoot., This type of effort, AS WELL AS, along with all of WoofCE's modern work that it is doing to move PUPs forward into modern times is an addition to current taxing work.

I am sure, though, it could be done.

The JammyPUP64 I have tested boots from SG2D as well as from QEMU with session saving occurring and present at reboot. This, of course, is not the same case as this thread's older Bionic PUPs.

[Jean-Louis CANONNE]

Hi Peebe, Hi Clarity.Hi everybody.
Just downloaded BionicPup32NG-8.1
I will do some testing later. Thank you for your messages.

About Bionic, my interest is here mainly to test and try to understand better. In hopes of being helpful to others trying to implement persistence, I must point out what seems to me to be a possible source of malfunction, in this case a hub. It seems to me that its use can disrupt the process of locating and loading the save file. The last example was with Fatdog which takes the backup when the USB key is directly plugged into a USB port of the central unit but does not when it is placed on the hub.
My hub is connected to a USB3 port. On my central unit there are two USB3 ports and four USB2.0. When I plug the Ventoy USB Key either on a USB 3 or a USB 2 on the central Unit, it works fine.
Currently, all hard drives are unplugged, which also explains why I insert if necessary psave=sda3 when I use a Pup with the Ventoy key to obtain persistence.
After some boot failures, I have to unplug the power supply to regain acceptable operation.

I may recreate a Ventoy key with MBR instead of GPT and with partitions 1 and 3 and 4 in fat 32. Hell is in the details they say, here too I guess

[rockedge]

@wiak New section Index->House Training->Kennel Linux :viewforum.php?f=198

[wiak]

@wiak New section Index->House Training->Kennel Linux :viewforum.php?f=198

That's fine, but where do we do 'Beginners Help'? All new users are beginners and they need a lot of information too.

I would suggest only a global beginners help would satisfy that need and Puppy Linux, Kennel Linux, Dog House, EasyOS, and FatDog should be sections of that.

But no hurry. Eventually would make help more universal and useful for everyone.

[stevie pup]

Hi Steevie, Hi everybody

Hello Jean-Louis. Glad to see you've had some success, even if not everything. I'm sure you will get there eventually.

[esos]

Ventoy Persistence Plugin

Many distros (like Ubuntu/MX/LinuxMint ...) provide feature for persistence. This allows saving any changes you make to the live system, so that they are still present the next time you boot to it. In normal case, we create a separate partition to do this which is not so flexible.
Now Ventoy brings a new feature here. You have no need to create any partition, no need to add persistent boot parameter. Just put a persistence data file in the 1st partition and tell Ventoy by the json configuration, and that's all.

[Clarity]

That above post, as well as other solutions for saving to a USB in this forum will work. We have several examples of this.

Yet, I will maintain that members are much better off creating a partition on their system drive labeled "Persistence" and keeping all Session-saves for ALL forum distros in that 'Sessions' folder for 2 good reasons:

1. USBs are horrible and inconsistent in implementations. Performance is all over the place and constant checking by the OS to the USB is not a benefit to frugal distro use. The system's drives are consistent, stable, long-lasting, and in many/most cases outperforms anything a USB gives.

2. Housekeeping: Every developer knows of this benefit where you know where to keep and look for things. This provides a level of consistency across all of the forum distros use.

HDD layout.jpeg (21.5 KiB) Viewed 787 times

Do this ONCE and forget it; as forevermore that partition-folder will be ever present for all future forum distros use

Please do not take this as anything objectionable as that is NOT my intent. I am only sharing my testing and findings, thus far.

If you find this helpful, run with it.

[stevie pup]

Just one drawback with that @Clarity, I think a lot of people keep Puppies on USB's simply for the "portability" factor, i.e. plug it in to whatever PC happens to be available at the time. I have Puppy installed to a portable hard drive, that way I don't have the issues associated with USB's but still have the portability.

But before anyone rushes off to do the same I should point out that installing Puppy to an external drive was certainly NOT a 5 minute job. It took 3 or 4 attempts until everything was right, with a number of headaches along the way, and I couldn't get it to work at all with some Puppies.