Best 32 bit version with support beyond 2023?

[Kjellinux]

@mikeslr

Web-browsers and their need to access graphic-rich content on web-sites will always be the determining factors of just how little RAM you can get away with.

Sadly, we can't relly live without them nowadays...

The purpose of exploration I reported here, viewtopic.php?f=119&t=692 was to examine the effect on available RAM of stripping out 'builtin' applications, among the data revealed was how quickly available RAM was exhausted by just normal use of a web-browser.

That's very interesting. I will definitely look into it.

By the way, I chose 'Seamonkey' as a browser to use in that exploration because previous tests showed that just starting it required about 50 Mbs less than palemoon.

I will add Seamonkey to my list of browsers to test.

FYI, the 48 Mb K-Office Suite I used in that test remains available, viewtopic.php?p=3412#p3412 as does the stripped busterpup, http://www.mediafire.com/file/ffsqqzardvbs6ll/file,

Office Suite is not as high on my priority list as browser, but it's still interesting to research.

A lot of interesting information! I have my work cut out for me for some time ahead!

[Clarity]

A power hungry 32bit platform will be 25-30 years old in 2023. ... Built BEFORE today's internet.

Please understand "why" almost every OS has abandoned the UPKEEP of 32bit. There are many reasons "why".

No offense is meant by this comment. Its merely a reference to our current world.

[Kjellinux]

@Clarity

A power hungry 32bit platform will be 25-30 years old in 2023. ... Built BEFORE today's internet.

That's the beauty of the challenge! Just how old a machine is it possible to get up and running with a browser connected to the internet?

I'm beginning to realise that my test rig, an Acer Aspire 3100 with 512MB isn't really too much of a challenge. It came with Lubuntu installed and it runs very well. Fortunately I'm awaiting another test rig that will constitute a greater challeng, an IBM ThinkPad 600X.

No offense is meant by this comment. Its merely a reference to our current world.

No offense taken. I'm on this quest to explore and learn.

[darry19662018]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_ThinkPad_600

[amethyst]

@Clarity

A power hungry 32bit platform will be 25-30 years old in 2023. ... Built BEFORE today's internet.

That's the beauty of the challenge! Just how old a machine is it possible to get up and running with a browser connected to the internet?

I'm beginning to realise that my test rig, an Acer Aspire 3100 with 512MB isn't really too much of a challenge. It came with Lubuntu installed and it runs very well. Fortunately I'm awaiting another test rig that will constitute a greater challeng, an IBM ThinkPad 600X.

No offense is meant by this comment. Its merely a reference to our current world.

No offense taken. I'm on this quest to explore and learn.

Depends what you want to do on the internet. Sites like youtube and facebook are HEAVY and you need a big modern browser (and relatively decent specs) to be able to access all functionalities and enjoy a decent browsing experience. So it's not really a case of getting connected, it's what you will be able to do with your limited hardware. I mean, if I have to wait 10 minutes for a site to load because of my crap hardware limitations then browsing is definitely not a pleasure anymore (maybe you have more patience than I do). Some sites you can only access with the latest big browsers. If you just want to do some basic general browsing a modern big browser may not be necessary. I, for instance, have been using Opera Mini as my primary browser for longer than 10 years. I run it with an emulator (needs Java installed). Extremely light on resources. I only use the big browsers when I want to watch videos online and post on facebook. There are also other basic html/text browsers that can be used for very basic browsing. Just as a matter of interest - Please report how your test machine is performing when accessing and using a site like Youtube to watch videos (and report if everything is working smoothly).

[Kjellinux]

@amethyst

Depends what you want to do on the internet.

Basic browsing, I guess. The testing will reveal what's possible with different specification.

I, for instance, have been using Opera Mini as my primary browser for longer than 10 years.

I have used Opera Mini in the past, when I tavelled frequently. It is definitely one of the browsers I will test.

Just as a matter of interest - Please report how your test machine is performing when accessing and using a site like Youtube to watch videos (and report if everything is working smoothly).

Will do. So far I'm still struggling with initial startup of BionicPup32 8.0, my first choice to test: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3268

[amethyst]

Will do. So far I'm still struggling with initial startup of BionicPup32 8.0, my first choice to test: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3268

Try booting with the pfix=nox parameter. At he prompt type in xorgwizard to setup the video resolution manually.

[Kjellinux]

@amethyst

Try booting with the pfix=nox parameter. At he prompt type in xorgwizard to setup the video resolution manually.

How do I boot with a parameter? So far, I have always booted by restarting and letting the boot carry on by itself. Should I halt it somehow, and if so, when and how?

[Clarity]

@amethyst comments intends to share the reality of our current world. 64bit PCs and laptops over the past 15 years have been discarded by so many people. Further, they are often readily available in repair shops or online as low as $15 (CA). Thus, you get a PC which accomodates more RAM as well as a more robust processor. This is why so many distros have moved to no longer support 32bit and its limitation, availability, etc. It just the reality of today's world we live. And ease of reaching Functionality is also what he is helping with.

@Kjellinux to enter the parms on boot, there are several ways. I am assuming you are using an old BIOS PC and hopefully an old PUP. If so, when you turn on the PC and it rest for a moment on the initial PUP selection screen, hit the "F2" key for instructions.

On some newer PUP distros over the past decade, on that initial screen, you would hit the "e" key to be able to add the pfix parm to the 'linux...' line.

Hope this is helpful.

[Kjellinux]

@Clarity

@Kjellinux to enter the parms on boot, there are several ways. I am assuming you are using an old BIOS PC and hopefully an old PUP. If so, when you turn on the PC and it rest for a moment on the initial PUP selection screen, hit the "F2" key for instructions.

On some newer PUP distros over the past decade, on that initial screen, you would hit the "e" key to be able to add the pfix parm to the 'linux...' line.

I am indeed using an old BIOS PC. Th F2 got me to a help menu, but as soon as I hit any key, including "e", the boot resumed.

[bigpup]

The F2 key is for accessing the bios setup.

In some boot loader menus:
To edit a boot menu entry.
When the boot menu pops up with the selection to boot the Puppy version.
Have the entry you want to edit high lighted.
Before it activates.
Press the e key.
That puts the boot loader, into the edit mode, for that entry.
After making edits to the entry.
Press enter key, to set the changes.
Press b key, to boot now, with that edited entry.

This edit is only good for this boot.
The entry goes back to original on next boot.

To make changes always be there.
You have to open the boot loader .cfg file (that provides the boot loader menu) in a text editor and make changes and save the updated file.
The file could be:
grub.cfg
syslinux.cfg
menu.lst

Note:
Grub2 boot loader may use something other than e key to access edit mode.
It should tell you at bottom of boot menu what keys to press.
Any boot loader should tell you at bottom of boot menu this info.

[Kjellinux]

I managed to halt the boot (Tab), enter pfix=nox, run xorgwizard and change the screen resolution manually to 1280 x 800. When I restarted the X server, it briefly looked as if the resolution might have changed, but as soon as the windows manager came up the resolution was changed back to 800 x 600 again.

[JASpup]

I'm getting around 9Mbps 32bit (XP notebook), 28Mbps 32bit (7 netbook), & about 85Mbps 64bit (10 desktop).

It feels like they're trying to hastily obsolete the technology, Chromize it.

[stevie pup]

As I've been following this thread with great interest I decided to do a couple of tests myself. So booted up BionicPup32 (the latest version) from USB stick, opened task manager to observe RAM usage, which with no apps running was about 100Mb. Then using the default Light browser went to Youtube, and promptly got the message "this browser is no longer supported". What the hell, I'm only doing a check, so ran a couple of music videos, and noted the RAM usage was hitting 600Mb.

Next tried SeaMonkey, and ran exactly same videos, and noted RAM usage was significantly less, about 540Mb. Bearing in mind that with an installed system it's possible to "spread the load" a bit, I reckon with SeaMonkey you could probably view Youtube videos on a 512Mb machine. The only other thing I noticed is that when you initially access a site there appears to be a surge of RAM usage, although it settles down after few seconds. Don't know if this might cause a delay.

Out of interest, while I had Puppy booted up I played a music video saved to the hard drive of this laptop. The RAM usage for doing this was only 130Mb, so only an additional 30Mb from the idle state. But then again, the video clips on my hard drive aren't riddled with ads and trackers are they? To me that is as much a sorry, sad reflection of our "modern world" as anything else.

Oh yes, 64 bit laptops for $15? I wish! If I could pick them up for that price here I would buy 4 or 5 tomorrow, but that's not going to happen here in the UK I'm afraid.

[Kjellinux]

@stevie pup

Next tried SeaMonkey, and ran exactly same videos, and noted RAM usage was significantly less, about 540Mb. Bearing in mind that with an installed system it's possible to "spread the load" a bit, I reckon with SeaMonkey you could probably view Youtube videos on a 512Mb machine.

My test rig, running Lubuntu with 512MB RAM, is performing terribly poor if I try to view YouTube videos using the included Firefox. I expect I will get similar results as you, once I get BionicPup32 8.0 up and running with a lightweight browser.

The only other thing I noticed is that when you initially access a site there appears to be a surge of RAM usage, although it settles down after few seconds.

This is my experience too.

Despite all this, I'm not yet ready to discard the idea of using Linux to give even more hardware challenged computers a second life. Many of the applications mentioned in this thread, e.g. YouTube and facebook, are indeed very demanding, but they are also present in almost every smartphone nowadays. I still see a potential value in using an older laptop as a supplement to a smartphone. It has a proper keyboard and a much larger screen than the smartphone. Tasks like word processing and browsing text can still be done with lower specifications and lightweight applicatons such as AbiWord and SeaMonkey. My aim is to find out just how low those specifications can be. If all goes well, I have another test rig on its way: an IBM ThinkPad 600X. Now THAT will be a challenge!

[stevie pup]

Blimey, I've just looked up the spec of the IBM, and you've definitely got your work cut out there. It will still be interesting to see how your experiments with it go, to discover just what can or can't be done with it. I will patiently await your further reports.

Good luck.

[Kjellinux]

Blimey, I've just looked up the spec of the IBM, and you've definitely got your work cut out there.

My plan, once the computer arrives, is to try to install Tiny Core Linux on it. Without any expantions or additions, it should at least be possible to boot the Core version from a CD. With any luck it may even run the TinyCore version. In order to runt the CorePlus version, I will probably have to expand the RAM (I don't know yet if it already is expanded) and find a PC Card for either a fixed LAN connection or a wireless WiFi connection. Everyhing I anticipated I might need so far seems to be available online.

I will patiently await your further reports.

All in due time!

[Clarity]

Wish I was close by. I have 8 32bit desktops that work and 5 laps that I cannot give away at my old US home. Anyone willing to pay their postage, you can have them. Also have 3 16bit PCs too you can have as well as well as 3 VGA monitors. And 2 VGA KVM switches plus a netbook that also still works.

I will be there in 2 weeks.

if this will help you, PM me and you can have them as long as you pay shipping and handling. The power use of the dinorsaurs was reasons for moving on, for me.

[darry19662018]

@Kjellinux

Have you looked at Wanderer's Corepup project.

https://thinkpads.com/146/thinkpad-600x ... ive-review

[Kjellinux]

I guess it's time for a progress report. Or, perhaps rather a lack of progress report...

I decided to try the CD option. Using the CD unit of my test rig (Acer Aspire 3100 with 512MB RAM) failed (despite beeing able to play CD music and open various files), and instead of troubleshooting I opted for my trusty old Dell Latitude D610 with 2GB RAM running Linux Mint 19.3 Cinnamon.

Before downloading a fresh new .iso file I decided to try the bootable USB that wouldn't run properly on my test rig. It started up without problems, it set the right screen resolution all by itself and the Light Web Browser was present. I wouldn't say it ran at lightning speed, but for a 15 year old laptop it was not all that bad.

Next, I downloaded a fresh new .iso file and created a bootable CD. I tested this on the Dell as well, and it ran as it should, allthough slower than with the USB. That would of course change once it was installed.

Back to the test rig with a fresh new bootable USB and a dito CD. First run was with the USB. The results were exactly like before. No browser and impossible to set the screen resolution.

So, my last hope was that the CD would do better. And it did. Sort of... The browser WAS present this time, but it took almost half an hour to start up. I have yet to find out how much faster it would be once installed. The screen resulution was still impossible to set.

Since the USB version ran reasonably well on the Dell, which is about 5 years older but has 2GB of ram rather than 512MB, I set out to try to find out if there might be something wrong with my test rig. It runs the Lubuntu it came with reasonably well, so there are no immediate reasons to suspect that there should be something wrong.

The first test was to try to install Linux Mint 19.3 Cinnamon, since I alrady had a bootable USB. It shouldn't be possible, since the minimum requirements are 1GB of RAM, and allthough it started off quite promising, eventually the startup came to a complete halt.

Next I tried with Zorin OS Lite. It has a minimum requirement of 512MB of RAM. It completed the loading process, but when I tried to start the browser it got stuck in 100 % processor load. I was happy enough that it loaded properly and suspect that it would perform better once installed.

My third attempt was Slax. It loaded without problems, but again, when I tried to start the browser, it stalled.

My conclusion thus far is that there is probably nothing wrong with my test rig, but it is on or near the limit of what many of the lightweight Linux distributions require. As for BionicPup32 8.0, it is probably the fastest among the ones I have tested, and possibly also the most feature rich out of the box. There's only on minor problem. I can't get it running properly!

From the onset of this quest, It has been my intention to find out just how old hardware can be given a second life using lightweight Linux distributions. Throughout the process I have come to the conclusion that my "last stop" on this path will be Tiny Core Linux. Before I go there, I would like to exhaust my other options. So I'm now open to suggestions or answer to some questions:

Is it possible in some way to get BionicPup32 8.0 up and running on my test rig?
Is there another Puppy version that would serve me better, and if so, which one would that be?
Is there another distribution alltogether that would be a better choice for me?

I will eventually upgrade the RAM of my test rig (it's upgradable to 4GB), but doing so right now would defeat the purpose of my quest.

[amethyst]

This is becoming a long thread and somewhat confusing. As I understand it you are able to run Bionic32 but are struggling to set the correct video resolution. Other distributions display the resolution correctly. Is this correct? Did you test the browser with Bionic32 (even with running the wrong resolution)? Maybe more for the advance user but it is also possible to run a new Puppy with an older kernel (a kernel swap). I run all my new Puppy's with an older kernel on my 15 year old machine as the newer kernels tend to hang on bootup on that machine. Suggestions have also already been made to try some older Puppys on your limited RAM machine. Have you tried them? Lots of things for you to explore. Also - When you have a working frugal install of Puppy with Grub4dos as bootloader, it is very easy to manually add as many Puppys as you like. All you have to do is to manually copy the Puppy files of the additional Puppy to a newly created folder and manually add another entry to menu.lst (the grub4dos configuration file). So for example you have a Bionic folder with your Bionic files, a Precise folder with your Precise Puppy files, etc. This way you can run and test as many Puppys as you like easily.

[Kjellinux]

@amethyst

As I understand it you are able to run Bionic32 but are struggling to set the correct video resolution.

That's correct. The resolution is fixed at 800 x 600 with USB as well as CD. The browser is missing with USB but present with CD.

Other distributions display the resolution correctly. Is this correct?

Thats correct too. (Bionic 32 works with booth methods on my Dell though).

Did you test the browser with Bionic32 (even with running the wrong resolution)?

No, because it was not present, regardless of boot method.

Maybe more for the advance user but it is also possible to run a new Puppy with an older kernel (a kernel swap). I run all my new Puppy's with an older kernel on my 15 year old machine as the newer kernels tend to hang on bootup on that machine.

That sounds like something I need and want to learn how to do.

Suggestions have also already been made to try some older Puppys on your limited RAM machine. Have you tried them?

Not yet. I thought I'd finish trying to get Bionic 32 up and running first.

Lots of things for you to explore.

Indeed it is. And that's the whole purpose of my project. A learning experience. And with the generous help of all the knowledgeable people on this forum, I'm learning new things every day.

Also - When you have a working frugal install of Puppy with Grub4dos as bootloader, it is very easy to manually add as many Puppys as you like. All you have to do is to manually copy the Puppy files of the additional Puppy to a newly created folder and manually add another entry to menu.lst (the grub4dos configuration file). So for example you have a Bionic folder with your Bionic files, a Precise folder with your Precise Puppy files, etc. This way you can run and test as many Puppys as you like easily.

That sounds very interesting. Is there some step by step guide available where I can read more about it?

As a general reflection, at this stage of the project, i can say that allthouhg most, if not all, of the other distributions I have tried so far have been more "streamlined" to download and install, BionicPup32 8.0 is still very interesting to me, since it outperforms all the other ones when it comes to speed as well as beeing feature rich "out of the box". Apart from the missing browser and the problem with the screen resolution, the performance has been impressive om my test rig. So, I'm not ready to give up yet!

[williwaw]

That sounds very interesting. Is there some step by step guide available where I can read more about it?

are you able to save any changes when booting from usb? can you confirm your boot manager is grub4dos and post a copy of the menu.lst file? after you paste it, you can select it and put it in a code box by clicking the [</>] button above.

after you have downloaded a different puppy.iso, (perhaps one with seamonkey instead of Light?) try clicking on it and posting a screenshot of the new rox window that opens.

As a general reflection, at this stage of the project, i can say that allthouhg most, if not all, of the other distributions I have tried so far have been more "streamlined" to download and install

yes, but you are trying to put an older Os on an older machine, and there were a few more steps back then.

[amethyst]

Other distributions display the resolution correctly. Is this correct?

Thats correct too. (Bionic 32 works with booth methods on my Dell though).

An older kernel may be the answer for that older machine as mentioned (kernel swap). Probably a firmware/driver issue.

Did you test the browser with Bionic32 (even with running the wrong resolution)?

No, because it was not present, regardless of boot method.

Download another browser like Seamonkey, install and run it. That will give you an indication how a browser will run on that machine. The Light Browser is old and has become relatively useless anyway. As others have mentioned, your cpu may not have the capabilities to run modern browsers. Are you able to run modern browsers on other linux distributions with that machine?

Also - When you have a working frugal install of Puppy with Grub4dos as bootloader, it is very easy to manually add as many Puppys as you like. All you have to do is to manually copy the Puppy files of the additional Puppy to a newly created folder and manually add another entry to menu.lst (the grub4dos configuration file). So for example you have a Bionic folder with your Bionic files, a Precise folder with your Precise Puppy files, etc. This way you can run and test as many Puppys as you like easily.

That sounds very interesting. Is there some step by step guide available where I can read more about it?

I have already given you the steps for a manual frugal install on another thread. You can either create folders for a lot of Puppys and its files and then run the Grub4dos configuration utility. This will produce a menu.lst which will hopefully create a correct listing of all the Puppys OR you can manually frugal install a Puppy and then later add other Puppys as described.

[bigpup]

Bionicpup32 8.0 could be using too new a kernel.

If you boot the Bionicpup USB on the computer it does work OK on.
You could change the kernel to an older series 3 kernel or an older series 4

you can change the kernel to any type you would like with the tool
In a terminal

Code: Select all

change_kernels

Note:
You need a 32bit kernel tar.bz2 package.
If there is no 64 in the name of the package or if it has 32 in the name, it is 32bit

Kernel packages you can use:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/puppylinux/huge_kernels/

• Download a huge kernel tar.bz2 package and extract the files in it to a directory.
  open the change_kernels program
  open in rox file manager the directory holding the extracted huge kernel components
  drag and drop the correct vmlinuz and kernel-modules.sfs or zdrv.sfs paths to the program
  answer prompt yes
  reboot

Should now be using the new kernel.

Just to better understand the change_kernels program.

The info for the input slots is a little miss leading.
(Use nothing from the running Puppy)

What goes into the slots is stuff from the new kernel.
Top slot -->the vmlinuz file
Bottom slot -->the zdrv sfs or the kernel-modules sfs

There is a kernels button bottom right that will take you to the repository of all the regular Puppy versions kernels.
You can use any of them, however get too old a kernel and newer hardware may not be supported.

[bigpup]

Precise light may be a good Puppy version to try.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=94

[mikeslr]

I see that amethyst has already provided instruction for manually locating a frugal Puppy and using grub4dos.
Easy Seamonkeys to setup are portable Seamonkey 2.46 or 2.48 published Mike Walsh, available from here: viewtopic.php?p=2206#p2206.
Download the tar.gz. Right-Click it and use UExtract to decompress it. Within the created folder ending with "extracted" you'll find another folder just named seamonkey or seamonkey32. Drag that folder wherever you want. Within that folder is a file named "smky". It's a bash-script which starts Seamonkey with instructions. You can drag that script to your desktop (creating a symbolic-link) to provide easy access. [You'll find information of the Forum on how to give that link a nice icon; and other instructions on how to create menu entries and add it to panel launchers].
If you dragged the seamonkey folder onto the partition on which more than one puppy is located (/mnt/home for each) each such puppy can use it without your having to individually 'install' it; one of the advantages of portable applications. Of course, to use it from any Puppy you'd have to file-browse to the smky script, create a desktop symbolic link or a menu entry.

[Kjellinux]

@mikeslr @bigpup @amethyst @williwaw

I see that amethyst has already provided instruction for manually locating a frugal Puppy and using grub4dos.
Easy Seamonkeys to setup are portable Seamonkey 2.46 or 2.48 published Mike Walsh, available from here: viewtopic.php?p=2206#p2206.
Download the tar.gz. Right-Click it and use UExtract to decompress it. Within the created folder ending with "extracted" you'll find another folder just named seamonkey or seamonkey32. Drag that folder wherever you want. Within that folder is a file named "smky". It's a bash-script which starts Seamonkey with instructions. You can drag that script to your desktop (creating a symbolic-link) to provide easy access. [You'll find information of the Forum on how to give that link a nice icon; and other instructions on how to create menu entries and add it to panel launchers].
If you dragged the seamonkey folder onto the partition on which more than one puppy is located (/mnt/home for each) each such puppy can use it without your having to individually 'install' it; one of the advantages of portable applications. Of course, to use it from any Puppy you'd have to file-browse to the smky script, create a desktop symbolic link or a menu entry.

Againt, thank you for all your kind help! As I mentioned before, my experience with Linux is somewhat limited, so I'm a bit overwhelmed right now by the many terms and concepts that are new to me. I marked some of them in the quote above. There are MANY more...

I see it as a challenge though, and for every new term or concept, I turn to Google for help. One by one. It takes its sweet time, but with every new search I learn more.

The reason I chose BionicPup32 8.0 in particular was because it was featured in the YouTube video from ExplainingComputers, and because it's in the list of official distributions. At this point, however, I will put the attempts to get it up end running on my test rig on hold in favour of one or more of the other distributions that have been recommended.

There is a long list of suggestions and advice that I have not yet had time to try out or act on. Rest assured though that this thread, long as it may be, will be revisited by me over and over again until I am satisfiled that there is nothing left for me to learn from it.

To be continued...

[Kjellinux]

Another day, another number of trials carried out.

I followed bigpup's advice and downloaded Precise Light 5.7.2. The .iso file was promisingly small. It booted without problems but when I tried to start the browser, a window came up saying "no browser installed". I tried installing a browser using the Portable Browser Installer, only to get a message it failed. Next I tried to install a browser using the Puppy Packet manager. It claimed to have successfully downloaded the browser, but there was no menue entry or icon to be found. As far as I can judge, this is the "lightest" Puppy version that I have encountered thus far, so I'm not ready to give up on it just yet.

Next I googled system reguirements for the official distributions. The lowest requirements appeared to be Slacko 6.3.2. This version also booted without problems, and it came with Firefox preinstalled. I tried installing Seamonkey to test a lighter browser, but the system froze on a black screen.

The third and last attempt of the day was Fossapup64 9.5 as suggested by bigpup. Its system requirements are way beyond my test rig, but I gave it a try. I got as far to the grub promt, but no further. How does one start the actual boot?

Next, I will try my way down the list of versions suggested earlier in this thread. I will also consult google to learn some more of the terms and concepts that I'm not familiar with yet.

I have only tested the different versions running them live from the USB. Could installing solve any of the problems?

As before, advice and suggestions are gratefully accepted.

[amethyst]

Stick with Precise Light before you move on. It comes without a browser (the old browser was removed). Download the tarball directly from the Seamonkey site, extract the contents and run the executable. Try version 2.48 (which I have and know work on Precise Light)