Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

IMO Ubuntu-based Puppy is no longer a good option. Ubuntu is systemd-only (some packages don't work in Puppy), with Wayland as default (X.Org is on the way out), with many packages replaced with snaps (snap depends on systemd), with narrower hardware support compared to Debian (Canonical is considering requiring Haswell era CPUs or newer), and many security updates are only provided to paying Ubuntu Pro subscribers.

Debian is a much better package base for Puppy, and the support window for each Debian release is very generous, especially if you look at the small number of packages that do get updates in Ubuntu's 5 year LTS window.

IMO, without going into further details, Debian > ubuntu , especially for the Puppy linux world, for many reasons, most of which very well explained by @dimkr

hi all

i intend to keep this thread alive
as a place to discuss
what distro will be the next distrowatch candidate in 1 year

i will also post any information that i receive from distrowatch on this thread

as i have posted before
i think we should make bookwormpup the community puppy
and always keep it ready as a possible candidate for distrowatch

wanderer

In terms of overall forum provision, I do myself think there is a problem if Puppy is only focussed on an apt/dpkg debian release in the future. It remains a fact that Debiandog provides a apt/dpkg frugal install distro FULLY debian compatible equally small and functional layered filesystem based distro. But debiandog no longer produces ubuntu based variants as far as I know, and it remains common for some to use ubuntu yet continue to avoid snaps via PPA alternatives. Whilst nothing wrong with debian based Pup, it is impossible for me to see any advantage that has over a debiandog, a distro that continues to be developed, including forum discussion here, since 2013. So whilst nothing wrong with giving users 'choice', why choose 'as the puppy future' what would inevitably always be a poorer debian implementation, or is there something about Pups that I am missing? I'd prefer arch based pup plus nice to see ubuntu base minus snaps requirement. Debian, well, fine, but alternative distros better for that. Distrowatch is ok, but point of difference advantages are more important for encouraging new users and developers IMO.

Give it a little time for someone to offer something new as a Puppy version.

Who knows what may come along.

I think in 4 to 6 months, there could be a Puppy version released by someone, that no one ever thought about doing.

The ones that are compatible with Debian are moving along and who knows what may develop with them.

For really good added software support.
To me it seems deb packages are the best to use, if an SFS or pet package is not available.

Having apt package manager in Puppy Linux has now become a must have feature.
So to me, if a Puppy version is not providing it already built into it.
I am not really interested in using that Puppy version.

Apt seems well supported in a lot of places, that may be offering software for download and install.
I see it all the time, one way to get the software is using apt.
With the needed apt commands provided, that will download and install the software.
Example:
I used apt to install the Brave browser from the Brave web site.
The apt commands used, added their repository to the ones apt looks in for upgrades.
Did apt upgrade and it listed a newer version of Brave available.
Selected Y and it upgraded the Brave browser.

When BookwormPup shows up on the DistroWatch Puppy Linux section.

I will make an announcement on the forum about it.
So people who may not be reading this topic know about it.
I will lock the topic, so all it can be is just an announcement.
No one will be able to post to it.

That should keep this topic as an open discussion on DistroWatch issues.

I never really understood this WAR on systemD. There is an apparent hatred that I cant get my head around. It is not perfect, but so is what is currently used. Debian works either way, correct?

Yes, there are advancements that Ubuntu has as it continues its marches with stable LTSs. And they do have some VERY useful packages including XRDP which is a fabulous multimedia Remote Desktop offering where an user on the LAN can login and get desktop services EXACTLY with audio as if they were sitting at Ubuntu's console along with some other useful subsystems. This,by itself, provides something very interesting on many levels should the Ubuntu PC sits somewhere else in the house and one has a tablet/laptop and desire to use the power or resources on that PC via its desktop. Probably not for everyone, but some would gain benefit over the non-multimedia limited features of VNC and similars.

I am NOT pushing for any direction, but agree with @wiak that we do have forum options that can be forward-facing to the DW viewers seeking great and stable alternative(s).

There is already one of this community's DOGs already ever-present on DW for years and kept up-to-date with its various versions/releases; namely FATDOG.

Just some additional info as this thread continues with useful directions and useful ideas.

I just tested the BookwormPup64. compelling enough for me. Much better than FossaPup64. However I noticed something.

1. There are some Qt apps. It there is Qt apps in Pup then why It didn't go using LXQT was primary desktop for Puppy instead of rox+jwm?
2. Python3 was included. QWinff can be replaced with curlew (a python app). CUPS printer management can be replaced with system-config-printer. Also there are many python apps that can be replace on GTK+2 apps
3. hardinfo can be replaced with hardinfo2 which was GTK+3 port

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 5:19 am

I never really understood this WAR on systemD. There is an apparent hatred that I cant get my head around. It is not perfect, but so is what is currently used. Debian works either way, correct?

"War" is a big word for a software compatibility issue. Puppy uses busybox init and not systemd, so many packages that depends on systemd won't work. Some packages that depend on systemd check if systemd is running and have some fallback, some don't (for example, application that rely on activation through a systemd session bus). Debian still supports sysvinit as a second-class citizen, so some packages are patched or packaged carefully (e.g. so they can use elogind instead of logind, etc') to make them work against sysvinit as well, but this is not perfect. However, a Debian package with a systemd dependency is more likely to work on Puppy compared to an equivalent Ubuntu package, because the latter is systemd-only and drops some of Debian's sysvinit support patches.

mistfire wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:06 am

2. CUPS printer management can be replaced with system-config-printer. Also there are many python apps that can be replace on GTK+2 apps

Python applications are small on disk because they're scripts (text, highly compressible) but they can be RAM and CPU intensive. I avoid adding them to my builds, with one exception, Blueman, and that's only because I don't see a real alternative.

mistfire wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:06 am

3. hardinfo can be replaced with hardinfo2 which was GTK+3 port

The stock dpup built by woof-CE already includes hardinfo built against GTK+ 3, but for some reason BookwormPup64 uses the Debian package for hardinfo and it's still using GTK+ 2.

Can someone supply higher resolution screenshots for the 'Launch' page?

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/sc ... /BWP64.png

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/sc ... /BWP32.png

To my eyes they look blurry or low quality at 1080p.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:54 am

mistfire wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:06 am

3. hardinfo can be replaced with hardinfo2 which was GTK+3 port

The stock dpup built by woof-CE already includes hardinfo built against GTK+ 3, but for some reason BookwormPup64 uses the Debian package for hardinfo and it's still using GTK+ 2.

+1
hardinfo2 has all the symptoms of the problem that hit xz recently.
Be careful.

hi all

just something to think about

the way i see it there is

1. our distrowatch candidate

2. and everything else

the distrowatch candidate is only the lead in to puppy

once someone gets to the forum
they see there is a multitude of possibilities
the distrowatch candidate does not define or limit what puppy is

however

i assume we want a candidate that is

1. up to date
2. supported
3. polished
4. full featured

in my opinion the best way to insure that we have at least 1 candidate that fits the bill
is to focus at least some of our resources on having 1 distro as a community puppy
that everyone can maintain so we can keep it ready

thats why i think we should focus on bookwormpup as the community puppy
its all of these things right now
so we only have to update it as needed

wanderer

Jasper wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 7:09 am

Can someone supply higher resolution screenshots for the 'Launch' page?

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/sc ... /BWP64.png

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/sc ... /BWP32.png

To my eyes they look blurry or low quality at 1080p.

Done

@peebee

It might have been a strange request but the new images make a difference

Jasper's request for higher resolution snapshots reminded me to take a look at what information our page on Distrowatch provides. Currently, with S15pup being displayed, it reads:

"Puppy Linux is yet another Linux distribution. What's different here is that Puppy is extraordinarily small, yet quite full-featured. Puppy boots into a ramdisk and, unlike live CD distributions that have to keep pulling stuff off the CD, it loads into RAM. This means that all applications start in the blink of an eye and respond to user input instantly. Puppy Linux has the ability to boot off a flash card or any USB memory device, CDROM, Zip disk or LS/120/240 Superdisk, floppy disks, internal hard drive. It can even use a multisession formatted CD-RW/DVD-RW to save everything back to the CD/DVD with no hard drive required at all".

If memory serves, that text has been used 'forever'. Not really a great advertisement. Do we get to provide our own text, or is that something which Distrowatch writes?

I'm posting before breakfast and my first cup of coffee. On the assumption that its our choice, after breakfast I'll post 'suggested text' for the Forum's consideration and revisions.

hi mikesir

as i understand we write the text on distrowatch

i have already asked jesse at distrowatch to remove openbox as a default window manager since jwm is the default
but an updated discription would be nice
and then i can send it in

wanderer

Firstly, wanderer, thanks for the effort and time you've put into this. I'm glad someone is keeping an eye on the road.

My suggested text will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm very familiar with Bookwormpup64, but never tried Bookwormpup32. Thought it best if I was to say anything about 32 that I didn't put my foot into my mouth. Downloading and will try it today: compare how much the operation of 32 is the same as, and how much it differs from, 64.

thanks mikesir

wanderer

Don't think I can test bookworm32. Have tried both the latest and the next previous versions. Neither would fully load on my desktop (it doesn't like 32bits) nor my Dell Laptop which is OK with 32bit. In fact, I'm posting from jammy32 which ran OOTB.

Downloaded bookworm32 twice, the second time into the Laptop which sits 8 feet from the router and always has a good connection, often 70/70. Not sure about the sha512 checksum. They don't seem right; but I'm more familiar with testing for MD5sum.

Not sure what the problem is. Maybe missing graphic driver or firmware. Everything loads during boot without any notification of an issue. But all I get is a blank/black screen. After several minutes I have to do a hard shutdown to close it, Had the same experience with noblepup32.

Will sleep on it. My current thought is to write something about Bookwormpup64, mention the availability of 32bit. That can be used as a Draft by someone else making any necessary corrections, changes.

@mikeslr
Try adding to the linux line or kernel line of the boot menu entry

nomodeset=0

That seems to work if you boot to black screen.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 2:03 am

Don't think I can test bookworm32. Have tried both the latest and the next previous versions. Neither would fully load on my desktop (it doesn't like 32bits) nor my Dell Laptop which is OK with 32bit. In fact, I'm posting from jammy32 which ran OOTB.

Downloaded bookworm32 twice, the second time into the Laptop which sits 8 feet from the router and always has a good connection, often 70/70. Not sure about the sha512 checksum. They don't seem right; but I'm more familiar with testing for MD5sum.

Not sure what the problem is. Maybe missing graphic driver or firmware. Everything loads during boot without any notification of an issue. But all I get is a blank/black screen. After several minutes I have to do a hard shutdown to close it, Had the same experience with noblepup32.

Will sleep on it. My current thought is to write something about Bookwormpup64, mention the availability of 32bit. That can be used as a Draft by someone else making any necessary corrections, changes.

I also had an issue booting Bookwormpup32, this post from gyrog has some instruction that worked for me and my intel card.
viewtopic.php?p=102591#p102591

The Bookwormpup32 feedback thread needs a sticky.
viewtopic.php?t=9766

Thanks, dogcat, for replying. And a big THANK YOU, bigpup, for the 'nox' command. That did the trick. I'm even posting now running bookworm32 from my desktop which doesn't like 32bits.

Will have breakfast, then give it a spin on my laptop.

dimkr wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:54 am

Clarity wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 5:19 am

I never really understood this WAR on systemD. There is an apparent hatred that I cant get my head around. It is not perfect, but so is what is currently used. Debian works either way, correct?

"War" is a big word for a software compatibility issue. Puppy uses busybox init and not systemd, so many packages that depends on systemd won't work. Some packages that depend on systemd check if systemd is running and have some fallback, some don't (for example, application that rely on activation through a systemd session bus). Debian still supports sysvinit as a second-class citizen, so some packages are patched or packaged carefully (e.g. so they can use elogind instead of logind, etc') to make them work against sysvinit as well, but this is not perfect. However, a Debian package with a systemd dependency is more likely to work on Puppy compared to an equivalent Ubuntu package, because the latter is systemd-only and drops some of Debian's sysvinit support patches.

mistfire wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:06 am

2. CUPS printer management can be replaced with system-config-printer. Also there are many python apps that can be replace on GTK+2 apps

Python applications are small on disk because they're scripts (text, highly compressible) but they can be RAM and CPU intensive. I avoid adding them to my builds, with one exception, Blueman, and that's only because I don't see a real alternative.

mistfire wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 6:06 am

3. hardinfo can be replaced with hardinfo2 which was GTK+3 port

The stock dpup built by woof-CE already includes hardinfo built against GTK+ 3, but for some reason BookwormPup64 uses the Debian package for hardinfo and it's still using GTK+ 2.

And systemd is a huge pia from a power users perspective.

I've messed around with systemd in Debian Dog.

"Lets make it even less human readable, add more layers of files, and force you to use nano to edit them if you want people on message boards to help you at all."

Sounds like a great plan.

Once I got BookwormPup32 running I discovered other problems. It is likely they can be fixed. But this is neither the thread to discuss them, and this is not the time to devote to doing so. So, I thought it best to just note the availability of 32bit Puppys in the 'Advert' on Distrowatch.

Found it very hard to keep it information-rich, accurate and short*. Maybe something like this:

BookwormPup64 is the current flagship among the Puppy family of maintained operating systems, which includes some 32bit. Puppys are designed to be resource-light, responsive, and portable. They can be run from almost any storage media --CD, USB-Stick-- and only require their own folders on the partition shared with Windows or another LinuxOS. BookwormPup64 has direct access to debian repositories via apt/synaptic; and can install specially built applications via Puppy Package Manager. It can also use many portable applications --such as AppImages-- and those built for Puppys. These require little or no RAM when not in use. Everyone is encouraged to ask for advice about which Puppy will provide the best fit for a specific computer.

-=--=-=-
Deleted discussion of modularity, touting radky's enhancements to JWM and the avalability of other filemanagers and window managers.

@mikeslr

storage media --CD, USB-Stick

Suggest broadening this to include DVD, SSD and HDD.

Thanks
wizard

While working I had Hot Stripper music playing in the background, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phtcAd8 ... bS&index=6 I guess I got carried away.

Maybe:

BookwormPup64 is the current flagship among the Puppy family of maintained operating systems, which includes some 32bit. Puppys are designed to be resource-light, responsive, and portable. They can be run from almost any storage media --CD, DVD, USB-Stick-- and only require their own folders on an SSD or HDD partition shared with Windows or another LinuxOS. BookwormPup64 has direct access to debian repositories via apt/synaptic; but can also install applications specifically created for Puppys. It can use many AppImages and many portable applications which are built for Puppys. These require little or no RAM when not in use. Everyone is encouraged to ask for advice about which Puppy will provide the best fit for a specific computer and needs. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=218

p.s. While the above is specific to BookwormPup64, very little would need to be changed were a Slacko, Void, or Ubuntu based Puppy to become 'the flagship'.

p.p.s I noticed that color can be used in the text, and that a link can be provided. See, https://distrowatch.com/?newsid=12136. So I've edited.

wizard wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 8:46 pm

@mikeslr

storage media --CD, USB-Stick

Suggest broadening this to include DVD, SSD and HDD.

Thanks
wizard

Also SD cards.
I boot from SD card installs on several computers.
As long as computer can boot from a SD card, it works.

The info statement that is at the top of the Puppy Linux DistroWatch section.

Really needs to be generic and not about a specific Puppy version.

Your statement seems to be better for the specific info about BookwormPup.
If you clicked on the DistroWatch link to specifically BookwormPup.
That pops up a specific info about it with download links.

Like this one about Fossapup64 9.5
https://distrowatch.com/?newsid=11018

bigpup wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 12:33 am

The info statement that is at the top of the Puppy Linux DistroWatch section.

Really needs to be generic and not about a specific Puppy version.

Your statement seems to be better for the specific info about BookwormPup.
If you clicked on the DistroWatch link to specifically BookwormPup.
That pops up a specific info about it with download links.

Like this one about Fossapup64 9.5
https://distrowatch.com/?newsid=11018

I've never gotten beyond the Distrowatch links on the right of its Home Page to the specific pages they provide; except years ago when I used its search engine. Didn't realize what is actually needed are (a) an updated generic and (b) a BookwormPup64 release announcement. Thanks, bigpup, for calling it to my attention. Tomorrow I'll see what I can come up with.

mikeslr wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2024 11:14 pm

... and only require their own folders on an SSD or HDD partition shared with Windows or another LinuxOS. ...

Suggetion: Leave this out. BookworkPUP can be run very well in a Live mode, not needing any of this, when directly booted via its ISO file or CD/DVD. Thus no need to mention that phrase in the sentence.

The rest of the statement is complete and accurate for all frugal uses.