The future of the forum and about the structure

[ozsouth]

I think the Admins & Mods do a great job. Thankyou all. I appreciate the work that contributors put in too.
Rockedge is trying (at significant personal cost) to arrive at a considered, improved layout, but pleasing everyone is hard.
As long as the forum works, I will be happy. To me, improvements are a bonus.

[Clarity]

... On marketing and visibility, I believe the idea of engaging with platforms like YouTube is worth exploring. Tutorials, distro reviews, and use-case demonstrations could bring more attention to the forum and the amazing work happening here....

Yes. There are a few present videos there on YT over the years by a couple of PUP enthusiasts. Others members 'may' step forward in the future if more users see this from you.

In my day, people read everything first before starting. Then over time, they only read if a problem surfaced. The internet comes along and we skip readings and seek forum and experiences from others by making and reviewing posts. Then youtube came along allowing people to "view" their resulting needs.

REsulting, today, many FIRST go to Youtube for review or direction, then they look/read a review on Distrowatch (or others), and lastly they go to the distro's forum page.

That is why this forum opening webpage and structure is so important for the survival of the contributions the forum distro developers produce as it make for a comfortable experience that all users want.

Thanks @rockedge and all that contribute here for something both attractive and simple for users-members to navigate.

... perhaps the forum could implement a clear "getting started" section for new users, prominently featuring a well-maintained flagship version. A polished first impression, combined with easy access to guides and a welcoming community, could help retain newcomers. ...

There are so many threads on this that I 'think' it a bit a larger task because of the differences that users of forum distros have contributed over, even just, the past years of this modern PLDF forum's existence.

This idea would be plausible ONLY if there is an agreement of what IS a 'Getting Started" to approach it from. There are at least 7 approaches, I know of, that would/could constitute a "SIMPLE" getting started. And I am ONLY a single member.

And, which of the getting started 'should' be the official?

LASTLY
I close with this, thanks to ERIC! NICE!

Latest Forum Homepage(1).jpg (68.44 KiB) Viewed 532 times

[Clarity]

Something just occurred to me that was sparked from what @zangus2024 proposes in marketing via Youtube.

For Forum use, a Simple Video could be extremely helpful that would explain the PLDF existence. This could be a good "Getting Started in Forum Use" video that the forum main webpage could offer a link to that. It would further, not just explain forum structure, but be inviting enough for viewers to venture further in.

It is again, an idea as we pursue an improved use of the PDLF.

[Wiz57]

by those who are in a position to make it happen.

that would be me moving the stuff around. About to give up and chalk it up as a failed cause.

You know I can always put it all back to the way it was in the end.

Should I call it a day and think about a restructure some day.......... maybe......... down the road?

Not many if any, are showing any signs this is going somewhere and I'm just not into the stress. Makes me feel stupid since I put it in what I thought was a better organization.

My dedication to Puppy Linux's well-being is being seriously questioned so it is looking like a vote of no confidence will dissolve the efforts.

It may be good to take a break. Many of the topics/threads WERE in need of housekeeping, especially
the really old stuff. Let things kind of settle for a day or two, then you can take inventory of comments,
both positive and negative. The forum index page is starting to take shape, I had already known about
the "expand/collapse" functions, lol! Comes in handy on a little 10 in screen!

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

Don't take any notice of me, Erik. You're trying your best as always.....and plenty of people DO seem to like what you're doing.

I've had a shitty, thankless, stressful day of it, for reasons I won't go into here. If I had any sense I'd hold my row and say nowt at all.....but I never display the sense I was born with.

I shouldn't have posted anything in the first place. Doesn't help for your own staff to be giving out negative vibes when you ARE trying your best. I think m'colleague has nailed it; all fora reach the point, after a few years, where a damn good spring-clean doesn't hurt.....and that's often the time where a new "look" can help freshen things up & stop it all getting stale.

Your efforts are always appreciated, Erik. Never think they aren't!

Mike.

[williwaw]

@Clarity

Is Latest Forum Homepage(1).jpg as rendered in your post above what you see when you first arrive at the site?
it's not for me unless I collapse the heading bars.

Rock, improvements are appreciated. I second wiz57 suggestion, take a break.

[rockedge]

Keep in mind a lot of the reason for so many sub-forums (i.e. Advanced Topics) is to improve search-ability, That it is already organized somewhat and the each section/sub-forum title helps the searches filtering function accuracy. Search Engines love it.

[bigpup]

This forum is named Puppy Linux forum.

Everything on it should be about Puppy Linux.

Rockedge is allowing operating systems, that are not Puppy Linux, to have space on the Puppy Linux forum.
A free ride!

Those other non-Puppy Linux OS's, should have a separate, fully understood by all, area on the forum.

That is their section of the forum, for anything about them, and only them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If this forum is going to be a bunch of different Linux OS's forum.

Then it needs to say that in the name of the forum.

A forum for a bunch of different Linux OS's

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I seem to be seeing a few people wanting this forum to not really be about Puppy Linux, but about whatever OS they are providing.

Go make your own forum, if you want it to be only about your OS.
If you want your OS to be the main OS.
You pay to provide it.
Then it can be what you want.

I spend time every day, moving topics to the correct location to talk about, whatever the topic is about.
A lot of why I need to do this, is having stuff on here, that is not strictly about Puppy Linux.

If you do offer some OS that is not Puppy Linux.
You should also be willing to offer your ideas to improve Puppy Linux, and bug fix the code, that is being used for Puppy Linux.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Puppy Linux is very active and continues to improve and will get better.
But improve when it really needs to.
It does not need to go down the rabbit hole, it needs to do this, because all other Linux OS's do it this way.

[Clarity]

@Clarity

Is Latest Forum Homepage(1).jpg as rendered in your post above what you see when you first arrive at the site? ...

Hello @williwaw ... glad you noticed. It was placed there as I am hopeful that the collapsed version will become the defacto standard webpage when someone comes to PLDF from Google or from a reference that some internet user(s) clicks on to get here.

I think @rockedge will pick up on the reason I made that post that way.

[Clarity]

REMOVED!

Just a observation.
The observation was already built-in.

[bigpup]

I am not seeing this when using Firefox running on a computer.

Is this the forum using a cell phone to access?
.

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[wiak]

I said I pretty much agree with dimkr post because it seems to pretty much agree with the arrangement of my earlier post, which followed on from what Clarity suggested:

viewtopic.php?p=140083#p140083

Said pretty much because topics like common to all distros, to some extent, such as Programming I haven't specifically myself thought about yet. There are always fine details in the structure to be handled.

Main thing to me is all distros treated the same in terms os forum structure with the likes of:

Distros > Puppy Linux > House Training
Distros > KL > House Training
Distros > EasyOS > House Training
...
and so on

[wiak]

@wiak @fredx181 @dimkr

So combine the Other Distro (DD, EasyOs, Kennel Linux) section with the Puppy section and rename that to "Distributions" and remove the Other Distro category.

I'll do it after lunch. Going down to river with the wife for an hour.

Well c'mon, it's not that simple because that big top level 'Pupply Linux Distributions' that contains House Training and all the other Puppy provided sections and Puppy International needs to then come under Puppy rather than filling up 90% of forum first page. Or do you really plan on having similar EasyOS Distribution big section with House Training and so on in another big front page section? And then the same for all the other distros?

Not what I was suggesting, nor dimkr as far as I understood it. Stuff for individual distros logically go underneath in subforums of that distro. Hence you get the likes of:

Distros > Puppy> House Training
Distros > EasyOS > House Training

and so on for the other distros.

You don't actually need 'Distros or Distributions' on top level - so could simply end being:

EasyOS > House Training
EasyOS > HowTos
...
Puppy Linux > House Training
Puppy Linux > Derivatives
...
And similar for all distros.

But either outcome would be fine.

Needs structured properly or such threads will keep coming back to haunt the place. Reality of forum evolution in terms of distros requires restructuring to match. Avoidance of logical needed restructure is no good to anyone, nor any partial fudges to try and satisfy individuals. Do it the same for all distros or forget it.

[wiak]

At the end of the day the restructuring could do with being done despite issues/obstacles involved. It is like a leaking roof otherwise, which gives endless problems.

Real problem is that someone has to do it and that person has to have sufficient phpBB skills and the authority and willingness to do so. You put your hand up to run this new forum rockedge and it was a relief for everyone that you did so. But, you effectively inherited an unaddressed problem, which doesnt go away, but instead grows over time.

If you don't want to finally solve that inherited problem with logical equitable restructure, then all I could suggest is we ask someone else willing and phpBB skilled enough to do it. Not many such people around here, though did note one recently but forget the member name. However, I believe you could do it, despite the growing effect on SEO caused by this forum adopting a lot of old murga forum structure for five years now. Just have to accept SEO hit - that will sort itself out eventually when new structure up and running.

So it boils down to whether you have time and willingness to do this restructuring properly, despite the negative aspects to old SEO. Or if you are willing for the forum to find someone else able and willing and pass the job onto them. You tell us donations don't pay enough for forum upkeep and I'm not surprised about that, but doesn't change the fact that an evolving forum needs evolving structuring and this glaring restructure job has been avoided since debiandogs came on the scenes in 2013! and more distros since and these have grown and not faded away.

You need to decide if burden and work is too much and if not, good, but if so then the community needs to think about solution. Time makes problem grow worse until addressed.

Or leave it as it is and whatever will be will be. No one blames you either way. Not me anyway.

The only thing I would request is that you don't simply try workaround partial 'fixes' to try and keep any individuals quiet, including obviously myself. Address the obvious differences in distro forum provision or don't bother doing it at all (or accept passing the job on to someone else if otherwise too much involved for you). I am sure you could do the restructuring effectively, but do you have the will or time to do so? Either way, I hope you do a complete logical restructure or at least manage it being done. You know the issues and somebody new, skilled or not, would not have the deep needed experience of this forum's distro creation evolution - the perspective of pure puppies refuse to accept the evolution, but the facts and issues remain and thus grow over time.

[dimkr]

And after looking over the home pages for puppylinux.com I fail to see what the glaring problems are.

Some examples:
1. Screenshots page is outdated
2. "Typically 500 MB or less" is true only in some cases - personally, I wouldn't recommend Puppy releases that obey this rule to beginners
3. "Official Puppy Linux distributions" is not a real thing: almost every sentence with the word "official" is either factually wrong or only meant to steer new users towards some Puppy flavors over others
4. The FAQ is outdated and inaccurate
5. The History and Puppy Linux Family Tree end in 2016
6. Puppy Linux Team is super wrong, there is no team anymore
7. The top menu points to the wiki - is it still active?

[Governor]

This forum is named Puppy Linux forum.

Everything on it should be about Puppy Linux.

Rockedge is allowing operating systems, that are not Puppy Linux, to have space on the Puppy Linux forum.
A free ride!

Those other non-Puppy Linux OS's, should have a separate, fully understood by all, area on the forum.

That is their section of the forum, for anything about them, and only them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If this forum is going to be a bunch of different Linux OS's forum.

Then it needs to say that in the name of the forum.

A forum for a bunch of different Linux OS's

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I seem to be seeing a few people wanting this forum to not really be about Puppy Linux, but about whatever OS they are providing.

Go make your own forum, if you want it to be only about your OS.
If you want your OS to be the main OS.
You pay to provide it.
Then it can be what you want.

I spend time every day, moving topics to the correct location to talk about, whatever the topic is about.
A lot of why I need to do this, is having stuff on here, that is not strictly about Puppy Linux.

If you do offer some OS that is not Puppy Linux.
You should also be willing to offer your ideas to improve Puppy Linux, and bug fix the code, that is being used for Puppy Linux.

IMHO:
What I see is a loosely knit group of Linux geeks, ie. developers/programmers/enthusiasts who generally do whatever they feel like doing with little consensus, and it is basically every man for himself.

What is Puppy Linux, anyway? If there is a definition someplace, I must have missed it. There needs to be a very clear definition as to what Puppy is and what it is not. As things are now, I see no vision or goal for Puppy except to remain a hobby OS among core users.

If the forum wants to attract more users, then there must be a consolidated vision which includes a real determination to make the OS user-friendly for ordinary non-geek computer users. The elephant in the room is the mistakes in the GUI, which should be acknowledged and fixed.

There must be clear explanations of the differences between different pups. The main headings should include what the Puppy is based on, ie. Debian, Ubuntu, etc. The names, ie. Bookworm, Fossapup should be there too, but are of secondary importance.

It must be clearly noted what a user can expect when switching from one "Puppy" to another, ie, switching from Fossapup to Bookworm. The user also needs to know if switching pups will disable particular apps and if settings/configuration can be migrated.
Cheers!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Puppy Linux is very active and continues to improve and will get better.
But improve when it really needs to.
It does not need to go down the rabbit hole, it needs to do this, because all other Linux OS's do it this way.

[amethyst]

Why is it that peebee's distributions aren't listed as official or true Puppys?

[greengeek]

Quite like the way this is looking - although I wonder why Puppy Linux International is out on it's own.
Why not within the "Puppy Linux Disributions" sub heading?

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[wiak]

This forum is named Puppy Linux forum.

Everything on it should be about Puppy Linux.

Go make your own forum, if you want it to be only about your OS.
If you want your OS to be the main OS.
You pay to provide it.
Then it can be what you want.

I spend time every day, moving topics to the correct location to talk about, whatever the topic is about.
A lot of why I need to do this, is having stuff on here, that is not strictly about Puppy Linux.

If you do offer some OS that is not Puppy Linux.
You should also be willing to offer your ideas to improve Puppy Linux, and bug fix the code, that is being used for Puppy Linux.

Go tell above to EasyOS 'team'. Oh dear that happens to be BarryK, the very same person who created what you know as Puppy Linux in the first place.
Go tell above to the teams of FatDog and DebianDog.
Do you imagine you are only directing your bias at the team of KL?

There must be clear explanations of the differences between different pups. The main headings should include what the Puppy is based on, ie. Debian, Ubuntu, etc. The names, ie. Bookworm, Fossapup should be there too, but are of secondary importance.

It must be clearly noted what a user can expect when switching from one "Puppy" to another, ie, switching from Fossapup to Bookworm. The user also needs to know if switching pups will disable particular apps and if settings/configuration can be migrated.t

Go tell above to EasyOS 'team'. Oh dear that happens to be BarryK, the very same person who created what you know as Puppy Linux in the first place.
Go tell above to the teams of FatDog and DebianDog and KL.
None of these are Puppy Linux, but believe it or not people use them - they have their own followers, who tend to be more open minded and also try out each other's offerings (including Puppy Linux distros).

As for paying for the forum bigpup. Well just because of legacy murga situation it was and is named Puppy LDF despite the likes of DebianDog being around since 2013 (when I became for many years a relatively minor part of that DebianDog team and realised what a great distro it was, which resulted in my adopting it 'instead' - ask backi, he knows that too). But I don't have your view - I believe this forum would lose something substantial if any (and especially if all) of KL, DebianDog, FatDog, and EasyOS deserted the place and left you to your Puppy not being developed much problem. I'm fine with leaving though - indeed I need some convincing to convince me to stay - so you should have no worries there. But... I do think that no-one has a right to be a global moderator here if they are acting their given role with single-distro severe bias and prejudice.

Note: Yes, I am aware that some Puppians accuse me of severe bias. Well, I have a job to do supporting the distro I created, as, for example does BarryK, and Fredx181 and so on. For that reason, despite having global moderator powers as an admin, I have rarely if ever done global moderation - I consider that inappropriate. As an admin I have administered some KL sections, and always discussed many related matters with rockedge from the very beginning of this particular forum. As the creator of FirstRib, and previously as heavy user of DebianDogs, my concern has not been about how good or bad Puppy has become, but rather how it's fans have road-blocked fair provision being given to other distros that overtime became very active in terms of development (e.g. just check out Sofiya's work, which we have struggled to find appropriate forum slots for). After over eleven years of fighting for that space and not being a moderator, I certainly don't mind calling the pot (or kettle) black as a mechanism to draw attention to an injustice.

Global moderators, who are active in that role, will not be tolerated by me if they continue to exhibit single-distro bias - I say that with my admin hat on and nothing to do with my own opinions concerning FirstRib, Puppy Linux, the DebianDogs or whatever.

[Governor]

Why is it that peebee's distributions aren't listed as official or true Puppys?

Good question. I have a few more.
What is the definition of Puppy? Why are Debian and Ubuntu based versions both Puppy? Is EasyOS still Puppy?

Why is systemd included in some pups, and why is systemd not listed at https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=puppy?

[keniv]

Could I just ask for some calm here. I am sure that some improvements could be made to the forum but I think that comments are now being made that, seem to me, could endanger it's very existence. Earlier in this thread there was a request for a breathing space. I think it's now time to have just that to allow things to cool down. I and I suspect the majority of members do not want to see people leaving or indeed the forum coming to an end over this. I have written this in a way which I hope does not offend anybody. If it does then I apologise in advance.

Regards,

Ken.

[wiak]

Could I just ask for some calm here. I am sure that some improvements could be made to the forum but I think that comments are now being made that, seem to me, could endanger it's very existence. Earlier in this thread there was a request for a breathing space. I think it's now time to have just that to allow things to cool down. I and I suspect the majority of members do not want to see people leaving or indeed the forum coming to an end over this. I have written this in a way which I hope does not offend anybody. If it does then I apologise in advance.

Regards,

Ken.

You appear to be Scottish Ken, or at least live there and have learned something from the experience being that you occasionally show your diplomatic side.

[amethyst]

indeed I need some convincing to convince me to stay - so you should have no worries there.

Nobody is going to convince you to stay. leave if you want to leave...

[bigpup]

If Puppy Linux is no longer going to be the main purpose of this forum.

Then the forums name is misleading.

Just change it to a forum for a bunch of different Linux operating systems, that may or may not be similar in how they operate.

But if the name is going to be Puppy Linux forum.

Then any other Linux OS's, provided on the forum, do need to be in a separate area of the forum.
For no other reason than to make it clear, that this is the section of the forum to talk about them.

That has worked for 5 years and confusion is not being seen by me, except a few times, when I have needed to move topics to the correct Linux OS section.
That includes specific section for a specific Puppy Linux version.

If EasyOS, Fatdog, Dog House, etc... sections need to have a bunch of subsections, then do it, make them.

I can tell you for sure, that nothing you can write for a How To, will apply 100%, with no issues, to every Linux OS, provided on this forum.
Even a general How To.
So definitely need some sectioning off, between different Linux OS's, offered on this forum.

[wiak]

I can tell you for sure, that nothing you can write for a How To, will apply 100%, with no issues, to every Linux OS, provided on this forum.
Even a general How To.
So definitely need some sectioning off, between different Linux OS's, offered on this forum.

All the Linux distro types involved on this forum are indeed different. That's why KL needs its area, EasyOS needs its area, Puppy Linux needs its area, DebianDog needs its area, and who suggested otherwise?

Do you just want to be a moderator for the Puppy Linux area then? I can arrange that.

[fredx181]

Looks like the opinion of bigpup and wiak are completely the opposite (extreme right wing and extreme left wing ).
(simply said, wiak advocates for equality of the distributions and bigpup for "Puppy only").

So perhaps best to find a compromise and actually that is (IMO) ... how it is now ! (or close to it)

Btw, I've not seen any comment from EasyOs or Fatdog developers, so I guess they are OK with the current situation. Also from rockedge and Sofiya (as being KL co-developers) I haven't seen a strong opinion about equality.

[dimkr]

(simply said, wiak advocates for equality of the distributions and bigpup for "Puppy only").

I have to choose between the two extremes, I prefer the current forum structure (although there are things I don't like, and I'm forking Puppy to create a weird distro that is technically derived from Puppy but super different, to the point it doesn't really belong here).

I don't fully understand what @wiak wants to see, if KL already has its own place: is it the placement of this section relative to others, is it the ratio of KL-specific subforums or what? Sometimes it's a bad idea to solve a problem before the problem is made clear and reduced to a much simpler problem. The forum will become messy with separate "House Training", "Announcements", etc' subforums for every distro, plus maybe don't have enough moderators for this.

[amethyst]

I've not seen any comment from EasyOs or Fatdog developers, so I guess they are OK with the current situation.

Exactly, I've already said this earlier that the developers of those distros have never complained about the positioning and exposure of their distros on this forum as far as I know. There seems to be one problem from the KL side in this regard and this has been going on and on...

[fredx181]

So perhaps best to find a compromise and actually that is (IMO) ... how it is now ! (or close to it)

Well, at the time of writing that, it was. Now it's completely changed. Experiment @rockedge ?
EDIT: Now "Kennel Linux" takes almost half of the forum space:

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[fredx181]

@rockedge ok, you changed again now, I see now what you're getting at, total vertical space is big now but people can always collapse sections of course, so perhaps good, have to get used to it of course.