Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:55 pm**

perdido wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:44 pm Therapeutic and invigorating for me.

Great read for me as well. I have felt every millimeter of what the article describes.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:11 pm**

jamesbond wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:52 am Got LFS, can build new distro, right?

Better strap on your seatbelt then. You're in for a hell of a journey.
Ready? Get, set, go.

There. Enjoy the reading?

a very interesting blog! thank you jamesbond to show us those texts!

The article is written by someone who has been building distro from LFS, from the ground up, from sources, for the last 6 years (and counting). Perhaps not quite in the same league as Nutyx who has been doing it for 10 years, but he's getting closer. Oh, he did it for multi-architectures too - he's built ARM version of the same distro, also from sources too, from LFS too, from the ground up too. At least for while, as he had to drop it: everyone is born with a quota of 3 billion heartbeats on average; and he has learnt better use for those heartbeats. Now all he cares is x86_64, because that's what he uses in his everyday life, for work and for fun. His 64-bit distro still runs on a Intel ATOM N450 netbook with 1GB RAM from 8 years ago.

yes and no.

the question is: what needs / is awaiting / in which environment does the user work?

ALL Puppy are limited by their single post design! Multi-place work with Puppy can only be an exception and I can not think seriously that a network master will integrate it at some place in his network!

more! A puppyist is alluring to be some kind of freak not able to be inserted in some team or team work

if I am an artist, and find in Puppy all that what I need or add or adapt what I miss or colleagues would miss to do the job, I can use it if it is my choice. I am the father of 2 reel artists (the one music soloist in one of the best German orchestra, did play in front of Trump, Putin, of course Merkel and my Macron as my president for all heads of state from G20, the second as diplomed of a great Acadamy of Arts, also a completely different kind of art) and no one would try to use Puppy or a self made kind of OS distribution because it is absolutely not her speciality to develop software engineering for her professional environment and no OS is enough to work: You need an adapted methodic to work efficiently and in correct ergonomics, else you will probably loose your time and energy!

so can such a system only very different goals as that. The best example in the history of recent software development based on (micro-) computers is the story of 4th created by an astronomer to manage astronomic job, and adapted to deserve a complete hospital in the last years of the precedent millenium: forget it! It was possible in the precedent millenium / century but work today for the new millenium under totally different conditions!

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:25 pm**

oui wrote:I can not think seriously that a network master will integrate it at some place in his network!

I do. I have had up to 8 machines on a home LAN that all are running Puppy Linux and are solid web servers exposed to the Internet. I have done this for years.

Once one sees how correctly configure the web server and router it can be done. It is in fact a Puppy Linux that is running as root but the entire network component is running as another special user altogether. Following the lead of how the built in user "webuser:webgroup" and the Hiawatha server work, it is possible to build a fantastic LHMP or LAMP. One can use Hiawatha (I use version 10.10) or Apache2 and even NGINX or Lightspeed. I've even gotten Cherokee to work (It is the embedded web server in Go-Pro cameras). A headless machine running Tahr64 and Apache2 gets all web page requests port forwarded from the router. This machine then determines what domain name the request comes in with and using reverse proxy distributes the page request to one of the other machines on the LAN which is running perhaps Bionic64-CE and a Hiawatha web server with PHP and MySQL and this machine hosts a WordPress and Gallery 3 sites. Or many other sites if one wanted to have multiple sites on the same web server.

I had this system running for 560+ days consecutively once, without a single shutdown of the gateway computer.

Posted: **Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:05 pm**

rockedge wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:25 pm
oui wrote:I can not think seriously that a network master will integrate it at some place in his network!
I do. I have had up to 8 machines on a home LAN that all are running Puppy Linux and are solid web servers exposed to the Internet. I have done this for years.

Once one sees how correctly configure the web server and router it can be done. It is in fact a Puppy Linux that is running as root but the entire network component is running as another special user altogether. Following the lead of how the built in user "webuser:webgroup" and the Hiawatha server work, it is possible to build a fantastic LHMP or LAMP. One can use Hiawatha (I use version 10.10) or Apache2 and even NGINX or Lightspeed. I've even gotten Cherokee to work (It is the embedded web server in Go-Pro cameras). A headless machine running Tahr64 and Apache2 gets all web page requests port forwarded from the router. This machine then determines what domain name the request comes in with and using reverse proxy distributes the page request to one of the other machines on the LAN which is running perhaps Bionic64-CE and a Hiawatha web server with PHP and MySQL and this machine hosts a WordPress and Gallery 3 sites. Or many other sites if one wanted to have multiple sites on the same web server.

I had this system running for 560+ days consecutively once, without a single shutdown of the gateway computer.

if it is so, it would merit to be described step by step (as security don't tolerate any error!) in the Puppy wiki! But perhaps it is already in it?

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:40 pm**

oui wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:11 pm You need an adapted methodic to work efficiently and in correct ergonomics, else you will probably loose your time and energy!

I think you’re looking for a more rigid development system. Which, as a whole, I don’t think Puppy has.

“more! A puppyist is alluring to be some kind of freak not able to be inserted in some team or team work ”
According to Puppy.com every user is a member of the puppy. But it’s a do-ocracy. Rather than someone passing out assignments, things get done if a user decides that he wants to do it. There is no requirement to do anything.

http://puppylinux.com/team.html

“no one would try to use Puppy or a self made kind of OS distribution because it is absolutely not her speciality to develop software engineering for her professional environment and no OS is enough to work:”

No it may not her specialty, however she would know best what she wanted her computer to do.

Example last night, just for the fun of it, I wondered what I would want a computer to do if I were to go to a music school. I’d want it to play music, edit music, and mix channels, do mixing. Xenialpup has DeadBeef in it, as well as other players. Using the Package Manager, I downloaded and installed “Rosegarden” to handle composing, mixing, and playing tasks. There’s a program called “Musescore” which creates, plays, and prints sheet music. It’s also available on the package manager, but a whole list of dependencies did not come with it. I found a program called “Lillypond” to handle that task. I then remastered the thing, and came up with an iso that I could install on a USB drive, and take with me should I ever attend a music school. Which, at my age, is highly unlikely.

Just my two cents, but that’s one reason I like Puppy. I can make it to be what I want it to be. Or as close to it as I can get.

Posted: **Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:41 pm**

Trobin wrote: ↑Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:40 pm
oui wrote: ↑Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:11 pm You need an adapted methodic to work efficiently and in correct ergonomics, else you will probably loose your time and energy!
I think you’re looking for a more rigid development system. Which, as a whole, I don’t think Puppy has.

“more! A puppyist is alluring to be some kind of freak not able to be inserted in some team or team work ”

According to Puppy.com every user is a member of the puppy team. But it’s a do-ocracy. Rather than someone passing out assignments, things get done if a user decides that he wants to do it. There is no requirement to do anything.

http://puppylinux.com/team.html

“no one would try to use Puppy or a self made kind of OS distribution because it is absolutely not her speciality to develop software engineering for her professional environment and no OS is enough to work:”

No it may not her specialty, however she would know best what she wanted her computer to do.

Example last night, just for the fun of it, I wondered what I would want a computer to do if I were to go to a music school. I’d want it to play music, edit music, and mix channels, print or display sheet music.. Xenialpup has DeadBeef in it, as well as other players. Using the Package Manager, I downloaded and installed “Rosegarden” to handle composing, mixing, and playing tasks. There’s a program called “Musescore” which creates, plays, and prints sheet music. It’s also available on the package manager, but a whole list of dependencies did not come with it. I found a program called “Lillypond” to handle that task. I then remastered the thing, and came up with an iso that I could install on a USB drive, and take with me should I ever attend a music school. Which, at my age, is highly unlikely.

Just my two cents, but that’s one reason I like Puppy. I can make it to be what I want it to be. Or as close to it as I can get.

Posted: **Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 am**

Hi James, yes, that's a nice read!

Incredible dedication to do it from scratch, almost, the way you have. I was also with T2 for many years, then my port of OpenEmbedded, oe-qky-src: https://github.com/bkauler/oe-qky-src.

That oe-qky-src was for the "Pyro" series of EasyOS, but when the time came to do a complete update, I ran into problems and chickened out -- Easy is now built from Debian DEBs!

I do hanker for the complete DIY approach though, but perhaps based off OpenEmbedded/Yocto is not the way to go.

Posted: **Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:30 pm**

BarryK wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 am Hi James, yes, that's a nice read!

Incredible dedication to do it from scratch, almost, the way you have. I was also with T2 for many years, then my port of OpenEmbedded, oe-qky-src: https://github.com/bkauler/oe-qky-src.

That oe-qky-src was for the "Pyro" series of EasyOS, but when the time came to do a complete update, I ran into problems and chickened out -- Easy is now built from Debian DEBs!

I do hanker for the complete DIY approach though, but perhaps based off OpenEmbedded/Yocto is not the way to go.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=105329

Additionally, all Fatdog packages/programs built from source have all the build details contained within them http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/source/800/

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:57 am**

Not being funny, but in all honesty oui is the only Puppian I have ever encountered who has on more than one occasion publicly "had a go at me" simply because I've stated, on many occasions, that I happen to like running old Puppies. And this simply for the fun of it.

However, this is the first time I've realised that he wants to run new, 'up-to-date' Puppies.....within the 32-bit ecosystem. Given that Pups are nowadays based around the components from other distros - Ubuntu, Debian & Slackware, of course - we ARE somewhat at the mercy of market forces. When those "parent" distros finally decide to give 32-bit the boot, what will Puppians have to do then? Go back to building our very own distro, right from scratch (a la LFS).....but at the same time making sure we STILL cater for users like oui with hardware that is rapidly receding into the mists of time?

Why do y'all think that with brand-new hardware I now primarily run 64-bit Pups/Puplets?

The oft-quoted statement that the whole Puppy ethos has changed is true; the level of equipment that was originally catered-for by Puppy is, in the eyes of the majority, a joke. Anyone who wants to use their equipment on a day-to-day basis HAS to realise that newer equipment is a must.....especially if you wish to remain safe online, while at the same time making the most of what the web has to offer.

Browsers have ballooned out of all proportion these days. Deal with it.....'cos they aren't going to make lightweight, fully-featured browsers JUST for "dinosaurs".

------------------------------------------------------

As trobin has stated, above:-

"According to Puppy.com every user is a member of the puppy team. But it’s a do-ocracy. Rather than someone passing out assignments, things get done if a user decides that he wants to do it. There is no requirement to do anything."

Never were truer words spoken. I, personally, spend as much time putting browser packages together for the community as I do for 3 simple reasons.

1 ) Browsers are the "glue" that enable on-line communities to stay together.
2 ) I enjoy packaging, and I use every one of them myself at some point or another.
3 ) And the reason I've concentrated on the 'portable' format (after Fred pointed the way!) is because I honestly believe it suits Puppy's 'ethos' down to the ground.....and makes them usable under far more situations than they would otherwise be capable of.

We all do what we can, to help our community, in whatever way lies within our capabilities. Any community will do the same.

Mike.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:17 pm**

This is not a complete report of the situation:

- MOST IMPORTANT point of view: probably one milliard or more of old PC's continue to be in existence at the homes of people

- they can only be used if you find applications for that (your browser is not refused, your phone is not refused, etc.)

- IMPORTANT is also that the destruction of them and recycling is probably not possible because the part used are so motley and did be produced at extremely different periods under very different methods of production

- recycling would say group enough of them to organize the search and finding of interesting or rare components but a great quantity of those PC's are very far over the earth

- SECOND MOST IMPORTANT point of view: probably more than one, milliard of poor people, poor in context with PC is not an absolute value, poor can be, not, is, that the school authority has not the budget to buy such middle of this type for the children and don't develop teaching programs for that reason (initiative of parents can't not help (enough): teaching programs are prerequisite!) in Eastern Europe, in Africa, in Asian, in Latin America... poor is there is no really need for powerful solution: old persons continue to listen radio, TV, music on old material and drives. nothing is high tech at her home. it is end of the live and investment in high tech would probably be the less important to do for them. But they continue to have OLD NEEDS, Puppy 1.8, or better 2.0 with old OO and Skype (100 MB including OO, can you remember? I have still that wonderful CD from Puppy

) is totally enough and covers more than the needs ...

... excepted, that Skype doesn't work any more (but it did work on those PC's and Puppy's!!! Why note today. Who was so selfish to deprive all former users of these solutions and why, knowing full well that a large part will not be able to keep up with the over-equipment?

comparison: the food sector also did evolute mainly at the same time. but can we cut off food for those who want, or must, continue to eat the old fashioned way? To say, well, that they stop eating

(same comparison is possible with cars! You find the electors would like politics saying "they buy new cars or go on foot! Let the hydraulic press come and destruct all old car not having max. equipment from today").

that is that, what the rich half of the world did decide for the planet deciding: we give up the billion old PCs, it is better the children, the retired persons, etc. have nothing!

- THIRD VERY IMPORTANT point of view: still very recent and well-equipped PCs have been marketed quite RECENTLY! It is a fraud to deprive buyers of such machines from bang any technological progress on the software side! What is «LTS» for hardware

? For those machines we will continue to need absolutely actual software solutions a lot of year (what I am listening in the background? What? Repeat please! Ah! They have Windows, no problem! Poor Linux world, miserable Linux world if it is the right answer

...)

that is a totally different clientele for 32 bit Linux as

school children

retired persons

etc.

Last clientele: Old PC can continue to work as specialised console for very different purpose of robotisation, but they often need to be really be totally fit for that in technical level (all of us know the browser message: «can't open the page» (I am to slow...) etc. and often need kernels with drivers for modern hardware to be commanded by them.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:01 pm**

I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's going to happen. You're asking someone to create and maintain a distro that has no future.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:50 pm**

i just couldn't resist putting in my 2 cents

i think 32 bit will be around for (quite) a while

1. you can run 32 bit on 64 bit hardware

2. a lot of old games and apps need 32 bit

3. the key is the browser (and ram)
(nothing much you can do when the ram needs are exceeded but)
i would think that there would be an incentive
to maintain at least minimal browsers
so that access to at least some forums and websites is maintained

there are many 32 bit systems being maintained now
so there is no need for any new ones
tinycore and puppy and other very small distros
that cater to older hardware
would seem to be excellent candidates for long term survival

once you find a distro that works on that particular hardware
freeze it
and just figure out how to update the browser (as much as possible)

puppy has portables pets and sfs files
tinycore and dcore has tcz and sce files
to do this

more and more things will become 64 bit
but the old hardware (and programs) will still be useful for a while
i actually have a computer that still runs dos
and its ok to read and write text files and run databases
when the hardware dies then you will have to buy a new 64 bit system
but until then ...

so in closing i feel the report of the death of 32 bit is a little premature

wanderer

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:17 pm**

on a related note

i have put fredx portable firefox in tinycore 11
now i have a tiny distro that will run on old hardware with a constantly updated browser

try it

wanderer

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:33 pm**

Trobin wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:01 pm I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's going to happen. You're asking someone to create and maintain a distro that has no future.

maintain

it is a great word...

as Puppy is made of present binaries and not compiled from scratch any more (see pls message of Barry above) with an highly automatised distro builder

and as Puppy WITH HIS NAME occupies the place of the little ones under the serious distributions

(or not

)

it has to preserve the possibilities of using old machines with 32 bit CPU's as long they are available AND NEEDING for populations being contable in billions and as long the main applications for such a distro, see message from wanderer, especially the browser continues to give access to the stuff being search by the users.

the coronavirus epidemic did reveal a great NOT COVERED need for computers in schools. even in rich countries, we lack it!

in poor countries, the need is simply terrible...

Dear Trobin, your intervention is to understand so as some developers in the Puppy community continue to develop for 32 bit:

You will find better they would stop immediately

?

If you find that, if find, that is grotesque and extremely demotivating...

Development is needing because the requirements for the applications continues to be strengthens (for ex. HTML5! youtube convert all old videos to HTML5 without need

etc. And youtube is not only music and sex: Tons of popularization, teaching and information videos were uploaded by people wanting to improve with great efforts from herself and engagement the situation of other persons!) so that new release are required rightly.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:40 am**

Oui
“
it has to preserve the possibilities of using old machines with 32 bit CPU's as long they are available AND NEEDING for populations being contable in billions and as long the main applications for such a distro, see message from wanderer, especially the browser continues to give access to the stuff being search by the users.”

I think Puppy will continue to offer a 32 bit version for as long as some one is interested enough to do the work needed to maintain a 32 bit Puppy.

Wanderer did find a solution that might work. For a while at least.

Wanderer
“once you find a distro that works on that particular hardware
freeze it
and just figure out how to update the browser (as much as possible)”

Wanderer
“on a related note

i have put fredx portable firefox in tinycore 11
now i have a tiny distro that will run on old hardware with a constantly updated browser

try it “
Eventually, even that won’t work, but it will extend the useful life of the machine.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:31 pm**

I use Puppy 32 bit with my i7 / 8 GB RAM

not for one reason

really for a lot of different reasons!

the perfect work from Josejp2424 (thank you very much, dear Josejp) did make that possible but it would be possible for me to use about the same Puppy in 64 bit as josejp2424 offers the same Puppy in 5 best variations (64, 64 with XFCE4, 32 , 32 with PAE and 32 with PAE and XFCE4. I really use only 32 with PAE and XFCE4, excepted for skype.

my PC speaks with me through the "dialogs". one dialog say «i am now doing this/that (remaster for ex.) with 8 kernels. it doesn't say with 4 kernels each 64 bit wide. some software inventor (I think he was Charles H. Moore, an astronomer, accustomed to handle with extreme large number, did check, that the main work of PC's consist in treatment from 8 bit information or less

as the most PC's are used to enter characters and precess then...

yes, the most use of my i7 is enter 7 bit (!) chars. and 95 % or more of the pages I am reading using it consist in the same job as output.

Paysan (gnu forth author, an 32 bit forth) did realize his flying dragon with an 8 bit forth with that poor high level language.

in the future, the humans will probably have to reduce her extremely exaggerated needs: we destroy actually our only one planet

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:58 am**

Oui wrote
"the perfect work from Josejp2424 (thank you very much, dear Josejp) did make that possible but it would be possible for me to use about the same Puppy in 64 bit as josejp2424 offers the same Puppy in 5 best variations (64, 64 with XFCE4, 32 , 32 with PAE and 32 with PAE and XFCE4. I really use only 32 with PAE and XFCE4, excepted for skype."

Then you're off to a good start. To my way of thinking you only need to keep updating the browser as long as possible. If you've downloaded and installed the DEVX file for your distro, you can compile from source code.

As for Skype on a 32 bit computer. You'll just have to find an alternative..

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:20 pm**

From the first post in this thread:

giving an EXTREMELY OLD IMPRESSION on Puppy
That view on the mirror says:
Puppy is terrible old and does not evolute any more

My oldest PCs, some more than 20 years old, still run the Lucid_5.2.8.7, 32-bit, with an Abiord that actually works, in stark contrast to the Abi in tahr64 in this 11 year old PC. But I have had to clear out some of my oldest Linuxboxes from the '90s, parts kept breaking down. They were replaced by 3 old Dell laptops, all running what might have been the most popular and downloaded Puppy for years, but unlike other Puppy derivatives, it doesn't even have it's own section in this forum. I am talking about BK's EasyPup_2.3.3. It has all the goodies you would expect from a fully loaded traditional Puppy, and it has that unique Puppy feel about it, but based on Debian Buster, it is also a top modern distro. Still being hooked on multisession CD/DVD, I run the EasyPup from, and save to, a live multisession DVD. I will probably use this distro for years to come, it is absolutely fabulous! Try it!
My oldest PCs have never heard of 64-bits, and couldn't care less about it. The sad fact is, however, that I have to run SeaMonkey, PaleMoon, or Mike Walsh's portable Vivaldi, from a late model 64-bit computer, for example in case som daft site uses Googles captcha to allow me browse the contents. Unless some genious comes up with a solution to the browser problem, and systemd, glibc and other issues, I don't think that an all new 32-bit Puppy is a very good idea, but the Dpup Stretch showed that it is possible. But I think we should keep the latest 32-bit ones updated as long as we can.

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:29 am**

Tallboy wrote
"Puppy derivatives, it doesn't even have it's own section in this forum. I am talking about BK's EasyPup_2.3.3."

Not used but
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=248

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:45 am**

Welcome back to the forum tallboy!

Pls read viewtopic.php?f=40&t=442

You will see that it is you absolutely not the question! THREE (3) absolutely modern 32 bit Puppy's exists (thank you josejp2424!).

What I don't know is the limit (CPU + RAM combination) permitting to use them as her ISOs have a weight of a bit more than 400 MB...

All 3 offers a maximum an services (such as perfect working pulseaudio etc.) compared with old Puppy's and a regular depository from josejp2424 at http://sourceforge.net. Over that, you can try to integrate all from Debian itself.

The problem is completely different:

The Puppy world itself DISQUALIFY the 5 developments from josejp2424

as they did not be promoted to mainline Puppy's!

So will probably each new comer never think about to try those wonderful Puppy's first and perhaps or probably disappear searching elsewhere a good modern small Linux

...

They appear not here viewforum.php?f=114

and not here http://puppylinux.com/ but but old versions

...

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:56 am**

OK, so there are modern 32-bit Puppys, but unfortunately, they don't run on old hardware. They are too big to be used with limited RAM, and even if they could boot, they need more RAM to run well. They are also built using woofCE.
The EasyPup_2.3.3 is 64-bit, built with woofQ - not woofCE. If EasyPup had been an official Puppy release, it would have massive downloads, and tons of users. In that regard it is treated somwhat like josejp2424's contributions, and may live an anonymous life in the shadow of the official Puppys. As I wrote, it doesn't even have it's own sub-forum here. You'll find the EasyPup here:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/quirky/easypu ... ter/2.3.3/

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:53 pm**

tallboy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:56 am OK, so there are modern 32-bit Puppys, but unfortunately, ... . They are also built using woofCE.
The EasyPup_2.3.3 is 64-bit, built with woofQ - not woofCE. If EasyPup had been an official Puppy release, ...

Is the difference so important between woofCE and woofQ?

Will the Puppy community somekind return to woof from BK also woofQ? Will that make the matter better (lot of members of the community did claim about woofCE, about it's separate way to inform the rest of the community or difficulty to accede to the information (is woofCE documented for beginners)?

and else if you use woofCE, josejp2424 did do that in his builds and explicit inform us about hat, the fruit of the work is some kind contested...

the main power of the old Puppy's from Barry where the documentation: He did always help his community to make her able to do the same as he himself did

(thank you Barry for all the rich literature and information about the build of good Puppy distros).

perhaps we have to much lines of different puppy's, puppy-derivates and puppy-like's and nobody any more to maintain the central information (can a discussions forum be the exclusive source of information or about). What happen at puppylinux.com as well as at the wikki?

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