Okay. So, just how secure IS Overlayfs....? (a wider discussion about future Puppy development)

[wiak]

Don't worry too much about it - we are managing.

Got it, you're not interested in improving the "bus factor" of your projects.

Well funnily enough, despite having maybe almost no users, or maybe tons unknown, we seem to have more dev support willing to step in and sort issues out in KL than you have up there at your woof-CE version control site! In fact, I'm pretty confident the KL guys could handle the situation if the proverbial bus took its toll - in fact the fixes happen like magic already! Maybe users of Firstrib somehow catch the dev virus whereas the Puppy users expect you to do it all?

[Grey]

could handle the situation if the proverbial bus took its toll
Maybe users of Firstrib somehow catch the dev virus whereas the Puppy users expect you to do it all?

Well, you're not quite right (but I understand your position). However, if a bus hits @rockedge to death on the street first, and then you, then everything will stop (maybe even after the first accident). In the case of @dimkr, there are more hopes, since GitHub is there (a powerful thing).

[Grey]

Anticipating the question why am I not helping @dimkr myself. The answer is obvious. He hasn't been hit by a bus yet. Plus he seems younger, let him work. Besides, there are good bus drivers in Israel, dimkr will be fine for a long time.

[amethyst]

we seem to have more dev support willing to step in and sort issues out in KL

Who are the active developers of KL as a matter of interest: yourself, your son and rockedge? Can't count in rockedge actually as he has been active with Puppy projects too.

[dimkr]

He hasn't been hit by a bus yet.

Who knows, maybe this will change if I start publishing things built on my own computer (using a build system I didn't push to a public repo, plus secret manual modifications) and give you a formal proof of its superiority and complete technological independence in a long reply.

Besides, there are good bus drivers in Israel

Yes, some of the bus drivers here are good

[geo_c]

@dimkr and @wiak

I read most posts by the two of you even if it's not a topic I have an immediate interest in, and I just have to say this:

You are both right!

You don't to have to like each other to take away constructive ideas, and I reallly have learned a lot just by reading what you have to say.

KL as a proof of concept works, and at some point version control would facilitate wider usage, something that might give it a life of it's own. @dimkr is perfectly reasonable about his assessment in this area.

Woof_CE and it's complexity, package management, lack of maintained applications, etc is a huge hurdle that is holding puppy back. @wiak is correct in saying that @dimkr is forward thinking in his decisions within that framework.

And I think there should be a good amount of mutual respect for each other, which unfortunately gets sidetracked in what I would have to say appears to be a "personality war." For sure frustrations on each front are valid, but it doesn't need to end there.

We could simply make adjustments based on other's observations and suggestions without having to "win" the argument.

I'm a collaborative musician, working with artists all day. I know something about this dynamic. Some are much easier to get creative with, and the deciding factor is that when it comes to communication one doesn't have to be "right" to forward their opinion. People can be overly sensitive to the slightest hints of disrespect. So there's that.

For what it's worth, those contributing to KL off the top of my head are @rockedge @wiak @Sofiya @fredx181 @dancytron (at one point) and me who uses these as daily drivers and thus can provide feedback regularly. Of course I also use pups as daily drivers, and it's honestly hard to say which I like better ultimately. Savefiles, automated backup etc are all more developed in puppy, but package management, security fixes etc are less maintained. F96 is a great distro. I liked F95 but it was aging, and the same will come of F96 when no packages will be updated by Ubuntu, if they are even at this moment updated.

So just my two cents, I look at everything you guys are saying and think, "Okay what's the creative way to address all these areas of concern?"

[Grey]

Yes, some of the bus drivers here are good

Oh, that @#$% bus factor so @#$%
By the way, in 1999 the Russian group Cyber Punks Unity released a demo version of the quest game for ZX Spectrum. "Full Shit"- such a name

There, in the introductory animation, the main character runs away from the bus and the maniac driver
According to the plot, only the Z80 processor pinned to the T-shirt in the form of an icon can soften the driver

It was a technical peak (for 1999 and ZX ). But... lazy Cyber Punks released only a demo with a symbolic version 0.666. And left for an IBM PC. There is one betrayal all around, as you can see

The video quality is disgusting, sorry. The game runs in the Fuse Spectaculator (even worse) emulator, plus it is designed for the ZX Pentagon clone. And Spectaculator does not emulate it very correctly... In addition, the color for the animation is randomly selected and blue fell out in this video. It actually looks better on YouTube than it does here in the window. I have already rewound to the beginning of the "race":

[dogcat]

Yes, some of the bus drivers here are good

Oh, that @#$% bus factor so @#$%

Bus factor happened when Murga Forum went down due to PHP server configuration being changed.

John Murga could not be contacted as he had passed away. Nobody else had the keys to drive the bus.

Maybe there are more than one bus driver now?

[dimkr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it took about 3 years until other contributors released F96-CE as a follow-up to 9.5 (in the absence of 666philb), and some of the "secret sauce" of 9.5 is missing and lost time because the build system was never published.

Maybe we have more developers nowadays, but we also have many projects with 1 or 2 developers, so the developers/projects ratio (= bus factor) hasn't changed really. And, most of the projects we have today don't have public source code, version control, a changelog that explains what was changed and why, etc' other people can use to pick them up when they're abandoned by the original developers.

[dancytron]

I promised myself I wouldn't post on this thread.

by jamesbond » Mon Jul 31, 2023 3:19 am

Let's put more fuel to the fire so we all can have a bonfire, shall we?

1. "Puppy Linux" is not an idea. It's not a concept. It's not a set of requirements like aufs, PPM, etc. It is not something so nebulous that can be defined to be anything that anyone wants it to be.

"Puppy Linux" is a brand.

And that brand, which Barry built has actual value/goodwill associated with it.

Preserving that value has almost nothing to do with 99% of what happens on this forum /edit/ outside the beginner's section.

To preserve the brand there needs to be a Puppy linux on Distrowatch based on a fairly recent underlying distro that just works on a lot of different [read old and/or crappy] hardware and a forum that provides friendly support so people can get it working.

It's not a huge task but if that ball gets dropped...

Which goes back to overlay. If Puppy is going to be the distro that just works on old crappy computers, being able to swap out kernels easily is big. If I was designing Puppy 2025, you'd have a couple of prebuilt tested kernels of different ages and a typical puppy app to download and swap them.

[mikewalsh]

@geo_c :-

I vaguely remember contributing a few bits'n'bobs to KLV myself, back in the days of the very early alpha releases. But I got rather lost as the team got stuck into the solid meat of steady development, and everything got way above my head. I was like a drowning man, vainly trying to reach the surface so's he could draw breath.....but it was so far out of reach it wasn't even funny!

I decided the sane thing to do was to quietly withdraw, and to leave things to those who clearly knew what they were doing.....AND were so much better at it than this part-time "bodger" (which I've always classified myself as)..!

Mike.

[wiak]

Maybe we have more developers nowadays, but we also have many projects with 1 or 2 developers, so the developers/projects ratio (= bus factor) hasn't changed really. And, most of the projects we have today don't have public source code, version control, a changelog that explains what was changed and why, etc' other people can use to pick them up when they're abandoned by the original developers.

Yeah, come to think of it I don't know why you are hassling me (i.e. wasting your time). Debiandog(2013) has been around much longer than firstrib (2019). They store some stuff at github (originally that was my idea) much like I have some github repos too. Not like woof-ce approach t suppose... Surely Easyos has github woof for you though don't know if that invites participants (seems to, no issues raised). Firstrib has longterm support, don't panic - no idea about the rest of projects here.

[wiak]

This thread started on a topic regarding 'security' of a software component.

Then title said its a wider discussion about future Puppy development. So why start talking about free-riders and suggesting they are somehow not as secure in terms of support as Puppy Linux?

The fact that the present state of Puppy build system is secured in a woof-CE github vault doesn't mean it will continue to be developed by anyone. Just means it is 'out there' should anyone be interested. Every small script of FirstRib (and DebianDog) is 'out there' too. So what.

Issues with future are to do with project leadership, interest, and active users/developers. As we all know, Puppy long had a benevolent one-person form of leadership - that worked (and usually does) - the users were happy and nothing much they could do about anything if they weren't anyway. But since Puppy became woof-CE - just a github build recipe (oh well... also a 'brand' in terms of history of what has been) its 'leadership' situation changed, its relation with its users changed. A bunch of people designated as stewards is not the same as a 'leader'. No matter how many 'stewards', one guy beavering away in a github site (rightly or wrongly seen as inaccessible by many Puppy users) isn't thought of as the 'leader' obviously, and so they are faced with resistance to change and even thought of as being a danger/threat to what many of the traditional users understand Puppy to be in shape and form. Seems to me, that 'security', in terms of likely continuing active long future of any project, needs a leader (be that an established, trusted recognised team, or simpler, just a leader - like Slackware for example). Pretty difficult being 'the leader' when the project was not started by yourself because when you create a project the users consider it 'yours' really so are happy to go along with all your plans. I can't imagine how anyone can become leader of Puppy actually.

FatDog has a team, but really it is also seen as having a leader. DebianDog has a few involved, but definitely seen as having a leader. Same really with FirstRib core build components - FR (including KL implementation) design allows distribution of creative activity, but it remains important to have supporting 'leader(s)'.

Puppy doesn't have a leader any more. That's the real security issue in terms of future development and acceptance by its users - woof-CE does not remove that issue; its perceived inaccessibility is just a further barrier to community-participation rather than an aid. However, woof-CE is not the main security risk in terms of future, rather it is because Puppy hasn't had an (accepted) leader for years. Most other projects on this forum don't suffer from that truly difficult problem - whether they have their own dev gitsite(s) or not.

[amethyst]

So who is the leader of the huge KL development team (team members still unknown though)? I wonder if I will get an answer on the names of these team members, previous question on this seems to have been ignored? I think you should worry less about Puppy (which you dislike very much and is not really of concern to you) and concentrate more on your own development. Puppy should be just fine...

[dogcat]

wiak, you are an admin in this Puppy Linux branded forum that features Puppy Linux, no?

You don't seem to support the product that this forum represents.

[amethyst]

wiak, you are an admin in this Puppy Linux branded forum that features Puppy Linux, no?

You don't seem to support the product that this forum represents.

His admin powers restricted to KL... hopefully. Having said that - he did once upon a time "threaten" to expose my personal details to the rest of the world. Powerful man.

[dogcat]

wiak, you are an admin in this Puppy Linux branded forum that features Puppy Linux, no?

You don't seem to support the product that this forum represents.

His admin powers restricted to KL... hopefully. Having said that - he did once upon a time "threaten" to expose my personal details to the rest of the world. Powerful man.

Grey had posted about the "bus factor" and my curiosity was aroused about there being hopefully more than one person with Puppy Linux's best interest at heart that can drive the bus out of a ditch.

[wiak]

wiak, you are an admin in this Puppy Linux branded forum that features Puppy Linux, no?

You don't seem to support the product that this forum represents.

Having said that - he did once upon a time "threaten" to expose my personal details to the rest of the world. Powerful man.

I did no such thing. What I told you was that you shouldn't slander people on public forum because public forum is membership based via email registration. Personally I had and have no interest in you one way or the other and certainly have no interest in discussing my FirstRib project with you. As for its use in KL section of the forum, anyone can participate there. The forum is run by rockedge, as you know, but you are also wrong about thr breadth of my admin rights. FirstRib was first to start using this forum, Puppy crowd came late to the party.

[rockedge]

Puppy crowd came late to the party.

This is true. We shouldn't have to recount the grief I received for even discussing the rudderless ship that the Murga forum became. I was already full all in with FirstRib, had set up a forum for it and then this forum went from a test on a local machine to see if the old forum could be saved or not to what it is today.

The FirstRib'ers were first ones on-board.

[amethyst]

wiak, you are an admin in this Puppy Linux branded forum that features Puppy Linux, no?

You don't seem to support the product that this forum represents.

Having said that - he did once upon a time "threaten" to expose my personal details to the rest of the world. Powerful man.

I did no such thing. What I told you was that you shouldn't slander people on public forum because public forum is membership based via email registration. Personally I had and have no interest in you one way or the other and certainly have no interest in discussing my FirstRib project with you. As for its use in KL section of the forum, anyone can participate there. The forum is run by rockedge, as you know, but you are also wrong about thr breadth of my admin rights. FirstRib was first to start using this forum, Puppy crowd came late to the party.

Are you making me out to be a liar? You DID threaten to expose my details. That's what really pissed me off so I remember it very well. And you deserved everything you got that day. BTW - you have no fooking idea what slander is.

[wiak]

You DID threaten to expose my details.

Please quote the post and read the words used. As I said, I told you that you should not slander anyone on a public forum because email registration is used to protect against such behaviour - there is no invisibility that allows such behaviour. Furthermore an admin is expected to enforce the rules of a forum, especially when hate speech and personal attacks are involved. Some suggest I have something against dimkr personality. Well... I certainly wouldn't call him my friend, but I do respect most of his ideas and work. You are a different matter altogether - I don't want to talk to you. If you break forum rules and get thrown off the forum that is up to yourself. Generally, I don't involve myself in matters like that since I respect rockedge to make all such decisions. However, it is true that I would leave the forum if no action was taken against individuals who gang up on others at every opportunity they can - including bullying tactics and legal threats. Like rockedge, I neither fear nor generally have a high opinion of actual lawyers nor of any who claim to somehow be involved in that profession - this is a hobby forum, not a place for ganging up and hassling individuals every chance you get.

[amethyst]

Simple example of slander: You implicating me as telling lies on a public forum when it is not so. Idiot. As an afterthought - you shouldn't be anything near to do with Puppy as you despise the product. Giving you admin rights to the Puppy section as well is ridiculous. Should only have admin rights to the KL section in my humble opinion. And BTW - your attack on everything Puppy on this forum is an attack on all of our Puppy community members. You shouldn't be involved here at all. Hamba...

[wiak]

As for the odd accusations that I hate Puppy Linux.

Not true at all.

I used it for years.

I consider it in the best interest of all distros discussed on this forum that Puppy does well. Prior to the sudden free-rider accusations against KL/FirstRib I was in fact supporting dimkr's recent work and slimmed down woof-CE, not criticising it negatively in any way at all. Most of what he is trying to do with Puppy development is exactly what I hope for the distro. Unfortunately, some Puppy users (and it seems to me, dimkr himself) still can't stop thinking about other forum distros as a 'competition' - as if their very presence and existence on this forum is an on purpose threat to Puppy Linux. In fact my own view is close to what I hear rockedge himself saying - my prime interest is in supporting and keeping this forum interesting and active. I really want Puppy to develop such that it doesn't become irrelevant. Can anyone seriously claim that re-runs of old Puppy versions is what Puppy future should be about. What kind of reputation will this forum have if its named distro Puppy Linux is no longer moving forward with new technology - that effects everyone's interests. Not because they are free-riders, but because the people who develop these 'other' projects are people who participate in forum discussions and contributions (including longtime contributions to Puppy Linux). What I have no interest in is having to continually face hassling, an individual choosing to continually harrass and look for opportunities to twist words and gang up and distort what I say and mean and think and feel. Cut it out.

Of course, if such people are not told to stop that crap by overall administration here, they will succeed in forcing me to leave. I'm here to help. Whether involved on this forum or not I develop some code that my family use and will continue to use and develop probably long time ahead. I have no problem not offering it here or anywhere as open-source, but I'm also fine in anyone else who finds it useful using it. If that's no-one, that is fine; I use it. However, the success or failure of the forum is a different matter; my view is that anything that attracts users means more activity on the forum. If you truly believe Puppy Linux is in fine shape because BionicPup or TahrPup or re-runs of FossaPup are better than all these 'Other' distros discussed, then I am certain this forum is doomed - the silly jealous protectionist attitudes are childish and wrong.

As for FirstRib or its KL variants - if the forum membership believe these distros are damaging to the Puppy Linux Discussion Forum rather than enhancing it, then I for one vote for their removal from here. Not a problem. I myself don't care one iota how much or how little any code I have written is used here (which is also entirely contrary to jealous accusations). I really don't. Only rockedge prevented me from refusing to support any of my work here any longer because having to put up with continuous jealous personal harrassment is not worth it.

[amethyst]

they will succeed in forcing me to leave.

Not a bad idea since you despise the very Puppy product. In fact it should be the right thing for you to do. It must be a very special kind of stupid to be involved with a product which you despise and criticise at any given opportunity.

[wiak]

they will succeed in forcing me to leave.

Not a bad idea since you despise the very Puppy product. In fact it should be the right thing for you to do. It must be a very special kind of stupid to be involved with a product which you despise and criticise at any given opportunity.

You (are the one who) should leave amethyst since you are simply trouble-making every opportunity you can find. You are clearly not actually interested in the future of this forum, and therefore not really interested in the future of any of the distros featured on it (just pretending your constant trouble-making harrassment is somehow because you are the faithful protector of Puppy Linux tradition - begone wiak and all these other false distros). Yes, I understand you don't have much of the status here on the forum that you would like; you never will have. You should leave.

dimkr is doing a pretty good job at developing the old Puppy Linux into a future relevant version. You are no actual help to him at all. You are just destructive to the forum as a whole. You should leave.

[wiak]

I was asked about my admin role. I can only ask anyone who wants information about that to read the FAQ and probably also useful to read the forum's terms and conditions, but for your convenience here is the main entries concerning my admin role on the forum, from the FAQ:

What are Administrators?
Board Administrator is assigned with the highest level of control over the entire board. Rockedge is the Board Administrator. There are several other members who are also administrators. These members can control all facets of board operation, including setting permissions, banning users, creating user-groups or moderators, etc. They also have full Global Moderator capabilities. Administrators are identified by their names being colored red.

What are Moderators?
Moderators are individuals (or groups of individuals) who look after the forums from day to day. They have the authority to edit or delete posts and lock, unlock, move, delete and split topics in the forum they moderate. Generally, moderators are present to prevent users from going off-topic or posting abusive or offensive material.

[amethyst]

But you are the one who wants to leave this place. I mean, how many times have you "threatened"' to do so or express your wish to do so. In my world that's a sign of weakness, ie. can't follow through with your own wishes. It's a bit like someone working at a company which he despises, moaning and complaining about everything but don't want to move on. I urge you to take up the courage and entertain your own wishes. Walk away, it will lighten your burden. I (for one) won't miss you. Given the powers of the administrators as stipulated by yourself you should actually have dismissed/banned YOURSELF a long time ago.

[wiak]

I suppose I could say goodbye

[amethyst]

I suppose I could say goodbye

We wish you well.

[wiak]

I suppose I could say goodbye

We wish you well.

You don't understand I see