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Mildly amusing thread!
Whatever.. but it does boil down to one thing - (summarising @jamesbond 's post.)
DO
Yeah I haven't been around.. so what? I've excuses which are NUNYA.
I still DO.
I contribute to both of those (wayland) projects. Both light weight and both can produce a puppy linux like desktop.
All functional using the above projects only.
Pretty cool huh?
Yeah, nice stars. 
https://www.tinylinux.info/
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From a legal point of view (my speciality) - has the Puppy Linux "brand" been officially registered at some registration office somewhere? If not.... I don't know what all this branding talk is about. Laughable...
jamesbond wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:19 am5. Final point: anybody who questions the "stewardship" model of Puppy Linux - let me ask you a few questions. Where were you when Barry stepped down from Puppy? Did you try to keep Puppy Linux alive back then? Did you try to keep the development alive? Did you try to clear up the confusion of what would happen after Barry stepped down? Where were you? What did you do?
The people who are now called the "stewards" were the people who kept going with Puppy despite sudden loss of the leadership. They took the initiative to keep Puppy Linux alive. It was only when Barry saw that these people, and decided to trust them as the caretaker of Puppy Linux, going forward. None of these stewards wanted to become one, or asked to become one. In fact, they reluctantly agreed to become one, only because Barry asked. When they did what they did, it was only because of their love of Puppy Linux. Not for control, glory, or something sinister like that.
@jamesbond :-
For myself, I can probably plead "not guilty" to the above.....by virtue of not even belonging to the community at the time. From what I understand, Barry stepped down as head honcho very shortly after the release of Precise. I believe this happened at some point during the 12 months immediately prior to my joining the community.....in June 2014.
I've always been happy to contribute in my own, small way.....though that "small way" has always been more with the software that runs on top of Puppy rather than the OS itself. I'm very much aware that my scripting skills are not up to snuff for the kind of thing that's required for code contributions to Woof-CE (actually, they're so far below par that I wouldn't even embarrass myself by trying). And apart from no longer having the intense interest required for learning, I also have less & less time.
I do what I can. Which isn't very much. I'm also in no position to criticise others. So, I try very hard not to.
Mike.
The question is not what you can do, but what you do. I don't see a long queue of people who do, waiting to get commit access to woof-CE or any other build system mentioned in this forum. Many among the developers here just build something privately (with their own private fork of woof-CE or something else) and don't collaborate by making their work reproducible by others, setting up a public issue tracker, donating fixes to things like JWM or aufs, etc'.
People find Puppy somehow, and the non-Puppy distros get a "free ride" thanks to the "brand" and this forum. This "brand" exists, maybe not officially and legally.
What gives one the impression that by the virtue of being a member of a forum gives the right to determine the direction of a product? If you are a member of Mozilla forum, does it give you the right to tell what direction Firefox should take? If you're member of microsoft forum, you've got the control to tell what feature goes in Windows or Office?
Also, since when was being a member of Puppy forum give the rights to determine the direction of Puppy Linux? It wasn''t when Barry was the leader, when murga-forum was the official forum. Barry listened to feedback, but the decision and the direction that Puppy Linux took was all his. He listened to some feedbacks and did as requested, in other times he went to the opposite direction. His distro, his way. Nothing has changed.
The truth is, everyone in this forum can suggest, request or recommend anything that they want. They can project their visions of future Puppy, and many have done so. But please be realistic. Different people wants different things (and sometimes opposites of one another). In addition, lest one forget, the developers who do the actual work, do it in their free time, out of their love for Puppy Linux, out of their love for fellow human beings. So they will consider all the suggestions and requests, and they will decide if or when they could or would do it. Nobody here can ever be in "actual control or say in what direction that distro named Puppy Linux", because it simply does not make sense to tell others what to do with their free time.
whether woof-CE users or stewards there pay any attention to what they read on our forum here is entirely up to them.
And what's different from the time of Barry? Barry didn't read every single post of thread in the forum as well, nor did he spent his time reading the forum everyday.
only these few who became, or through invitation or whatever become stewards of that git website
No, sorry, you get it wrong. They are the stewards of "Puppy Linux", not stewards of the git website.
I don't even think all woof-CE stewards have chosen to become members of this forum here - so I don't really know why this forum is considered official.
Because the "stewards" said so. How else do you think rockedge could use the puppylinux.com domain name?
And also, there is no requirement that the "stewards" have to be a member of this forum or that forum.
What does 'official' mean in that situation where it's also true that some members who use this forum for their discussions and for feedback on their projects have no interest in woof-CE, and so on.
You are digressing. I didn't talk about the 'officialness' of the forum in my earlier post. I was talking about what "Puppy Linux" is.
But if you want to talk about the forum's usage for other projects, I would say this:, it is really up to the forum owner what topics he want to allow or disallow. If he wants, he can open a forum thread for discussing Ubuntu, Centos, TinyCore ... and nobody would object (I know I wouldn't). And if he does, it doesn't change anything about "Puppy Linux".
In that sense I suppose it is a waste of time any people here (those who are interested in using the distro Puppy Linux) discussing what should go into that distro or what its future should be or anything much about it really from this venue.
I wouldn't argue about this. If you think it is a waste of time (for you), then perhaps it is. You are entitled to your opinion.
I can only offer this: We have dimkr who is actively developing Puppy, and I know that he actively listens to feedback. If you think it is not good enough, and you think that every single stewards and everyone who works on Woof-CE have to be here before it is worthwhile to talk about Puppy Linux in a Puppy Linux forum, then, so be it. You're entitled to your opinion.
The place to discuss these matters would, I understand from above posts, be on woof-CE and anyone can raise 'issues' there if they know how to log in to github and use it.
That would work too, if one has specific things in mind, and if one knows how to use the tool. But you don't have to.
I've noted the point and said it before too: this site is not woof-CE. Some other distros featured in this forum's discussion threads, were worked on and created in line with the discussions that those who worked on them had here on the forum - nothing at all to do with the distro Puppy Linux sometimes;
I'm sorry but I have to disagree.
Every distro that is featured here has some relationship with Puppy Linux one way or another. Some of them are non-official Puppies. Some of them are direct descendant of Puppy. Some of them are forks of Puppy. Some of them are __inspired__ by Puppy.
Otherwise why would these distros hang in here, in this forum at all? This forum is not the site for leftover wannabe distros who have nowhere else to host their forums. To say would be an insult to rockedge who runs this forum, and would be an insult to those who creates these distros.
In my opinion, all distros featured in this forum, have connections to Puppy, directly or indirectly, fast or loose. These distros, or the author(s) of these distros, at one point in time the past, must have been inspired by Puppy or the work of Barry. That's what binds all these seemingly disparate distros in this forum together. Common ancestry, either in code, in methods, in idea, or in spirit. I think credit must be given where credit is due.
from any other XXX-CE site with some other team of appointed-stewards or any other, irrelevant really in opensource world, hierarchy of leadership and 'brand ownership'.
Well, tell that to Debian, then. They have "Debian maintainers" team, which in effect, is the "stewards" of the Debian project. Or perhaps tell that to Mozilla. They even have an official non-profit organisation to direct the development etc of their product.
Or how about this. What if somebody created a bunch of scripts, and call it FirstRib. Or somebody creates a distro and call it Weedog. It's just a name, right, so who cares? Anyone can name their scripts FirstRib, and anyone can name their distro Weedog. And then claim that theirs is the official one, with everything else being fake copies? Because 'brand' doesn't matter, right?
You run a business, so I thought you of all people would understand the importance of a "brand".
Truth is, anyone can read how Linux works, and spend enough time becoming capable enough to make their own distro(s), given sufficient time and interest to do that - lots of people have done it
Just like if given enough time, and interest to read physics book, one can become Einstein, or given enough time and interest to learn music, one can become Mozart or Beethoven?
there are no gods or kings in Linux really, no one that anyone actually needs or deserves worship or esteem.
There isn't, I agree with you on this, however, there are people who stand above others, and I would say that Barry is one of them. He's not perfect, he has his own share of flaws and quirks, but Puppy Linux and all of its derivatives in all forms - including this forum we're conversing on - wouldn't exist if it were not for him. For that, he has earned my utmost respect.
And I extend my respects to the "stewards" of Puppy Linux too, and all the Puppy developers (stewards or not) past present - without whom, we also wouldn't have this conversation as Puppy would have died long ago.
Sure, you can laugh as loud as you want. The louder the better, if it really helps to make your day brighter, because, why not? 
But seriously, what alternative would you offer?
--------------------------
Another historical tidbit for those who are interested but were not there when it happened.
Q: Why did the stewards decided that "Puppy Linux" can only be produced from Woof-CE?
A: When Barry stepped down, there were many questions and ideas about what Puppy Linux was (and apparently, still is). Everybody agreed that Puppy Linux was Barry and Barry was Puppy Linux. But now that Barry wasn't anymore, what would Puppy Linux be? There were as many opinions as the number of heads talking about it (or perhaps even more). Nobody could agree on what Puppy Linux was.
In the end the conclusion was this: Puppy Linux was Barry's creation. It was the embodiment of his ideas, his vision. Now, where else his idea and vision was embodied, other that Puppy Linux? That would be in the tool that he used to create Puppy: the Woof build system (previously known as the Puppy Unleashed), which was almost as old as Puppy itself. It was from this idea that the stewards came to the decision that anything that could be called as Puppy Linux (official or not) must be produced from Woof (or, it's successor, called Woof-CE - short for "Woof Community Edition", which meant that they invited everyone to contribute to the development of Puppy through Woof-CE).
That definition has served as well since then, and until now. Will it continue to serve well into the future? Who knows. But for now, it is what it is. And if you disagree, when make your voice heard. Argue with action, because words are cheap.
Just 'do'.
---------------
@mikewalsh, what I was trying to say is that when Barry stepped down, there were __many__ talented people in the forum. Anyone of these people could have chosen to carry the torch, but didn't. They were all worried, of course, but none of them actually took the action to do anything to continue Puppy Linux. I don't blame them, they must have their own reasons of why they didn't.
In the end, there were only a handful of people who actually tried to carry on with Puppy, and these were the same people who were later was appointed by Barry himself as his successor. They didn't want this heavy responsibility, that's why they chose the model of "stewardship" rather than the heavier words like "Puppy Linux Committee" or "Puppy Linux Maintainer" etc. The whole idea is that the Puppy Linux now belongs to and will be maintained by the community (instead of only a bunch of them) - hence the name Woof-CE - and they were only the "stewards" to make sure that the project runs smoothly and that it continues on. So all the bad vibes thrown to these "stewards" are really unwarranted.
But of course, in practical side, you can't have everyone makes a distro and call it Puppy Linux. It simply does not make sense. Community development is well and good, so is community feedback, but if one looks at the "which browser is the best" thread, one will quickly see that it is impossible to please everyone, and somebody has to make the difficult decisions, otherwise there will be no Puppy Linux at all.
Somebody has to be responsible on the domain names. Somebody has to be responsible for the password to upload stuff to ibiblio. Somebody has to vet the code that goes into Woof-CE (which in turns goes embedded into every Puppy) so that it doesn't contain malware, or so that it doesn't have catastrophic failure that can wipe out a user's disk. Etc. You get the point. That's why we need to have some sort of leadership, as loose as it is. That's what the "stewards" for. I think a lot of people either don't see this aspect, or have lost sight of it, when they criticise the stewards (or the model of stewardship). One simply cannot run a sizable project without any leadership.
Stewards looks and sounds so blue collar (not that there is anything wrong with blue collar workers). I suggest you call yourselves guardians of the Puppy Project.
Who listens to people on this forum and uses any of their ideas?
About anyone that produces anything that is used in Puppy Linux.
Just one of many examples:
Several people talked about wanting a basic Puppy Linux build.
A base Puppy Linux.
It seems ozsouth is listening.
viewtopic.php?t=9059
viewtopic.php?t=9266
viewtopic.php?t=9283
However, it seems it was quickly found, that basic is not always as good, as you think it would be.
Thus turning into 3 different builds.
This forum is full of comments about code that has errors and here is the fix.
You forgot to have this program in your Puppy version.
This does not work and here is the fix for it. ( a lot of this gets into Woof-CE) if you spend the time to do a pull request in Woof-CE. 
It does usually get into the final release of whatever it is for.
I tested your program and this is not working.
New release of program.
Now what i reported on is working.
I could go on and on.............................>>>>
The things you do not tell us, are usually the clue to fixing the problem.
When I was a kid, I wanted to be older.
This is not what I expected 
Many fixes or features that go into Puppy A or Puppy B don't make it into woof-CE, because people modify their local copy of woof-CE but don't submit the changes for inclusion and never publish this private fork of woof-CE so somebody else can upstream their changes. When Puppy C is released by some other developer, who uses woof-CE as-is or has a copy of woof-CE with a different set of modifications, it feels like a step backwards compared to A or B and users don't like it.
It's important to have contributors who 'do' to keep the project alive, but if most development doesn't get poured into a shared cauldron everyone can drink from, we're not using the resources we have efficiently.
There's a reason why developers use version control tools like git and collaboration tools like GitHub's/GitLab's issues/pull requests, but not forums with posts and attached files. These tools make life so much easier, increase productivity, and they're very easy to get into.
(IMO, Puppy was healthier as a project back in the days when we had one "mainstream" release series and not a group of releases with few users and <=2 developers, where some are "official", some are not "unofficial", and some don't have a clear "value proposition". woof-CE is not very well-maintained these days, I'm pretty much the only one fixing bugs, and I'm not as involved as I used to be. Plus, many "official" or "mainline" Puppy releases produced with woof-CE include a bunch of years-old packages with known issues instead of adopting woof-CE's ability to build packages from source with Puppy-specific fixes, so these releases don't really include all bug fixes they can include.)
From a legal point of view (my specialty) - has the Puppy Linux "brand" been officially registered at some registration office somewhere? If not.... I don't know what all this branding talk is about. Laughable...
YES. It has.
Fact #1. The DOMAIN NAME puppylinux.com is a REGISTERED domain name. Paid for and owned legally and officially. With some more cash I could go a step further and trademark the name. Fact #2. I also own the murga-linux.com domain name at this moment.
Operating just the oldforum and this forum requires someone to sign on the dotted line as the responsible party and pay out the money it costs. That someone is held LEGALLY responsible for what happens here and that's who is expected to pay the money.
I pay the bills and maintain the sites so I feel like I "do" at least something to keep the thing alive.
@rockedge I hope you are convinced that it turned out to be a blanket, and not physics.
And the nonsense that hurt you so much... This is a code and error in the Basic language for the ZX Spectrum computer. I even have a T-shirt and a mug with this inscription.
The picture FULLY reflects what is happening in the topic:
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rockedge wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:05 pmFrom a legal point of view (my specialty) - has the Puppy Linux "brand" been officially registered at some registration office somewhere? If not.... I don't know what all this branding talk is about. Laughable...
YES. It has.
Fact #1. The DOMAIN NAME puppylinux.com is a REGISTERED domain name. Paid for and owned legally and officially. With some more cash I could go a step further and trademark the name. Fact #2. I also own the murga-linux.com domain name at this moment.
Operating just the oldforum and this forum requires someone to sign on the dotted line as the responsible party and pay out the money it costs. That someone is held LEGALLY responsible for what happens here and that's who is expected to pay the money.
I pay the bills and maintain the sites so I feel like I "do" at least something to keep the thing alive.
I'm talking about the official registration of the name Puppy Linux ("the actual product name/brand"). It hasn't been registered at some patent office so anyone can use it. What you have, are some legal rights to your DOMAIN name, that has nothing to do with the actual product. Anyone can make or break anything related to the actual product which is not protected by law.
I'm talking about the official registration of the name Puppy Linux ("the actual product name/brand").
That is true it is not registered as a trademark. What I already said.
Although the copyright could be disputed because I just today received mail using my name and "Puppy Linux" as the business name. So someone somewhere has a list that made that association. Also a catalog came in the mail today with "Puppy Linux" and my address so the United States Postal Service recognizes Puppy Linux as the addressee and this address as Puppy Linux's location. (or something like that).
It is more important who or what Google search, ChatGPT and DuckDuckGo think Puppy Linux is anyway. So far it's pretty clear it's a Linux operating system for many many people across the planet. I am not a big fan of lawyers so I'll leave the worldwide legal parts who or what can use the name Puppy Linux, to the experts.
As the creator of firstrib build system, just to correct the record (tho I see prev posts were since edited somewhat to dilute the wrong information):
Firstrib was originally just the root filesystem builder part. Nothing at all to do with Puppy Linux except, as everyone who knows me knows, I didn't like single-user oriented Puppy Linux design, hated Rox, and didn't like JWM. FirstRib was an idea inspired by an idea I had to build a root filesystem using the combination of an official package manager plus busybox. If inspired by any distro, it was Void Linux because they offered great repo plus a static build of their xbps package manager. Nothing to do with Puppy Linux at all.
Then I wanted to boot it. Didn't want to use aufs, didn't like Puppy adrv, fdrv way of arranging frugal installs at all. I had become familiar with DD porteus boot, loved that, so was influenced by that and Debian live. Didn't study their code; did my own thing but keeping porteus boot functioning in mind. Nothing to do with Puppy Linux design. Nor did I like Puppy linux look and feel so in a sense FirstRib was a strong reaction against the way Puppy Linux was designed, the opposite of being inspired by it.
That's not to say I didn't enjoy Puppy back in its early 2000s heyday when I had been mainly using tiny core Linux on the old machines I had at home. I found Puppy better for such old machines back then, tho wished it wasnt single user os. But once I started using debian-live based DD followed by fredx181 openbox/tint porteus boot variant I never actively used Puppy again, but enjoyed forum discussion tho not the banter.
Since I didn't use Puppy, firstrib wasn't really even a reaction against Puppy design aside from my wanting to show a simpler way to build multiple distro variants, except that DD did still slightly at times try to present itself with a little bit of Puppy look and feel, tho with openbox/tint2 only the DD rox inclusion suggested that remnant to me of the old puppy design.
I had no initrd to boot firstrib; fredx181 suggested I use Linux live scripts of Tomas M of Slax, but I had never used Slax and preferred to just experimentally build an initrd that used overlayfs and numbered layers from scratch after reading kernel docs and some overlayfs tutorials, whilst keeping in mind the frugal install functionality porteus boot gave the multi-user capable debiandogs. Nothing to do with Puppy except that I didnt and don't like the way Puppy implements it's frugal installs. And definitely no Puppy look, which I didn't like, though easy enough to copy for those who like that, but not me. So no, firstrib design is neither based at all on Puppy Linux, nor inspired by it. If anything, as I said, it might be considered a reaction against Puppy design in the sense I wanted a build system that was simple to use and not anything like woof-CE way of doing things.
Having said that, I have nothing against any distro as long as some people prefer them - no harm in that. People, especially older people prefer to use what they have long become comfortable with. One thing I did like that Puppy Linux promotes is the use of huge kernels with external addons for modules and firmware. I purposively therefore included the ability to use Puppy huge kernel/modules in firstrib. Firstrib distros don't need to use huge kernels, but can. KL distros do usually use them, and also tend to include all sorts of useful utilities that were developed originally for the debiandogs or Puppy. Firstrib doesn't need these, but why bother writing similar utility apps when forum created ones like these work fine in firstrib distros. Actually I use such utilities with my full installs of zorin and Linux mint too. And similarly 'borrow' utilities designed for zorin in my firstrib based distros. They are all Linux. Note using android phone hence grammer/spelling messed by Google...
Yes, off-topic of first thread post, but correcting mis-information/claim spouted elsewhere I the thread. Don't make false claims about firstrib design inspiration if you don't want your claim corrected by me.
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It is very similar to the situation with bees, bears and honey. Bees and bears had a discussion in the forest about how they hate honey. "We don't like its color... we don't like the taste of it... we don't like its consistency... So when do you say there will be a new delivery?" 
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Despite my not being particularly 'fond' of dimkr personality, I do think his recent Puppy slimmer woof-ce approach is good overall.
I don't use FatDog because its package management doesn't appeal to me, but there is a lot about fatdog boot design that I find impressive. My own post above is simply correcting info about my firstrib distro design, suggesting close connection/inspired by Puppy and not otherwise any intended attack on others. Think what you like of firstrib but stop pretending it owes its design in any way to Puppy Linux - it simply doesn't.
Rockedge clearly loves Puppy and builds lots of that look and feel into his KL creations, and why not - I am entirely fine with that and all collaboration this forum could better help provide.
Actually, might have been FatDog that introduced huge kernel use here. I don't know. Also I don't know Porteus itself - whether that distro also employs huge kernels or not. But I certainly know Puppy does!
I believe FirstRib was first here to formally adopt overlayfs, back in 2019 (never came with aufs), so maybe thats my fault. Puppy had experimented with overlayfs though. Firstrib also went against Puppy's dislike of pulseaudio too. Used pulseaudio in my earliest builds since liked it. And Puppy didn't like using official upstream package managers, but stuck with PPM till recently. Firstrib design totally based on official package manager use from the start, which I long advocated also for future Puppy redesign. Puppy would probably have been better had it gone with "woof next" some time back.
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dimkr wrote: ↑People find Puppy somehow, and the non-Puppy distros get a "free ride" thanks to the "brand" and this forum. This "brand" exists, maybe not officially and legally.
And this is the most laughable piece of nonsense of all. Heard it claimed before by the same general group of Puppy fans. Maybe would have had some truth in it maybeten or fifteen years ago, but since at leat 2013 when DebianDog reared its head as a more full-featured alternative to Puppy Linux, with none of its several major limitations, the claim is ridiculous.
Actually, I feel exactly the opposite is true. Some of the other distros are better than Puppy Linux by quite a lot but since the forum is only widely marketed for Puppy the rest are effectively kept down. But that's a choice I suppose of their creators who probably don't care about distrowarch and other outside "marketing". I was going to withdraw Firstrib from here because I was fed up the nonsense of such claims and only care if I use it. But rockedge in particular, wanted its maintenance/discussion to remain here, which was understandable considering how much of his own time he has spent using the system to build his own distros such as KLV-Airedale. Nevertheless, I moved firstrib topics themselves into 'Other' distros and one day, if I could be bothered to, maybe I would take some variants to Distrowatch or FirstRib websites, to escape limited nature of Puppy itself in terms of marketing this forum. I probably won't though because I'm not really interested in it other than for my own use, and I'm actually more interested now in using KL_full2frugal instances of big distros like Linux Mint.
''Free ride' on the back of Puppy. What a joke...
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Interesting news today. If someone is going to promote the brand, then here is one of the ways of street advertising. A little expensive... but it's worth it.
The most interesting moment begins at 43 seconds
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''Free ride" on the back of Puppy. What a joke...
This statement is true when talking about the Internet and Search Engine Optimization. "Puppy Linux" has a very high Google ranking mostly around the domain puppylinux.com AND the second domain residing underneath is murga-linux.com which itself has a massive strength in a SEO sense. So anything riding alongside on the server under the domain puppylinux.com will automatically be hit by many many search engine bots putting it immediately on the map.
An Example :
I created a single page website for the release of F96-CE_4 and for it I created the sub-domain f96.puppylinux.com. I uploaded the few files that make up the site to the sub-domain directory........
240 seconds later the query "F96-CE" in Google.com showed the brand new and highly insignificant web site as #1 on Page 1 of the search results.....go ahead and try it out....open any search engine and type "F96-CE: and see what happens.......#1 over the entire planet Earth......pretty freaking cool if you ask me..... 
That is probably what dimkr means when he says hitching a free ride..........great recognition quickly based on the very strong branding and ranking on Google and CO............
I know exactly who is hitching a free ride around here...and I'm doing it as much as possible...puts KLV on the map easy peasy 
Corporations pay people lots of money to get brand strength like Puppy Linux has by accident.
@wiak wanted to mention I am working on a KLV that uses Wayland/Weston only and leans heavily on GTK4.
Using the build script and a PLUG I am going step by step hit or miss to see "the future"
I am still waiting for those flying cars and a robot that can cut my lawn and trim the shrubbery that "the future" was bringing.......
"I hereby make trademark claim" - nah, just my hobby. Do what you like. Probably often better than I do for my own use anyway.
As for me being in business - well, yes, that's a livelihood. Security is important. Trademarks and brands are important in that competitive world since making enough money to survive on is the point of that pursuit. It is not an open-source hobby. But I suppose GNU team gets its knickers in a twist too trying to brand protect all open-source code - becomes tricky to avoid the likes of GNU readline indeed.
Security and sandboxes - problem with lots of apps nowadays not happy to run as root user... So lets use run-as-spot fake-normal-user tricks. Afterall, run-as-spot is only an eleven character name and sudo is four characters long (for those wanting to get root permissions on other systems). And it has been pointed out that sudo apparently has lots of vulnerabilities that risk a normal user getting root permissions. So yes, let's run as root user all the time for safety..
But as for that dimkr guy's attempt to alter Puppy Linux such that it doesn't force aufs, Rox, JWM, direct alsa, GTK2, and Puppy Package Manager on users - Pups use upstream repos so why indeed not use upstream package manager after all these years of denial??? Though it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, seemed reasonable and I would have thought on the whole necessary for distro relevance in this day and age, or soon enough anyway. However, seems to be a bit of disharmonious enmity from many of the longtime Puppy users, who understandably may not feel comfortable that the very facilities and fundamental characteristics of what they happily touted was the point of difference that made their Pups superior, somehow or other, to all other distributions, small, large, frugal, or full, were suddenly being, piece by piece removed. Alsa replaced by Pipewire (after pulseaudio), aufs by overlayfs, running their browsers fearlessly as root user pretty much abandoned, GTK2, JWM and Rox(!) being taken off the table as non-starters in this rapidly becoming Wayland present, and adopting dpkg/apt in DebianDog debootstrap style (oh my goodness - take the clock back to 2013 or before when Sickgut and Saintless led that long and winding road through purgatory to Hell).
My goodness!!! How indeed to breach that obvious divide between the almost sole developer and the audience who love their traditional Pups?? The usual answer: try to figure Puppy as being on some high special pedestal - Puppy is a Brand Name!!!...a trademark (would you believe it) in the name of... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
So, yes, time to make war - nothing like some good misinformation and attacks on the unbranded/non-trademarked 'Others' as a diversion to avoid conflict regarding resisted development in the Puppy Linux user/fan community. The Puppy users community in which so many of the true Puppy user faithful angrily object; saying they are really not comfortable with the direction Puppy is taking. And who can blame them(?!). So best let's distract attention away from that panic regarding growing stagnation and old-timer resistance to change - all is not well in the land of Pup it seems ...
So, yet again, as before, and no doubt again and again later, time (essential) to distract attention from talk about changing Puppy - instead, try to divide and conquer: attack the 'Others' who really had no place being here (though most delicately avoid saying that now especially since rockedge uses everything - my goodness), 'free riders', clones and copies inspired by our single user, root desktop, Alsa-based, GTK2, JWM, Rox pinboards, X-based Puppy Linux adrv, bdrv, fdrv, rehash initrd with a ydrv, Puppy Linux. Freeloaders all of these others - and not one of them with trademark claims and certainly no 'Brand' - poor.
Funny place sometimes. Really. Whatever rocks your boat I suppose.
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Yes, Puppy Linux Discussion Forum has great SEO - good for the forum.
So a trademark claim and Brand. Don't rest on your laurels. Damn Small Linux was pretty popular once too. TinyCoreLinux up there for a long time, but now??? Slitaz?!!!!!! what year has cooking stopped at?
Yes Times they are Changed.
Type "Small distro" in your google search and see if Tiny Core gets mentioned too...
Also I did a quick Wikipedia search:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-wei ... stribution
DebianDog - Debian Live CD shaped after Puppy Linux. It is packaged with JWM and IceWM, or Openbox and Xfce. Debian structure and behaviour are untouched
that 'free-rider' DD was put in dominant position in the sentence (even in the article)!!! You should complain.
Bear in mind also the mention of Sparky Linux.
and: https://sparkylinux.org/sparky-bonsai-a ... arkylinux/
It is a minimal Debian Buster file system using Debian linux kernel v. 4.19.0.6 with the BusterDog’s modules for porteus boot, live-boot-3x and aufs support. Kernel updates are not available the way they are on a properly installed linux system. As you may know, BusterDog uses the Antix Linux init system. Sparky Bonsai uses systemd as pure Debian and Sparky Linux. If you don’t wish to use systemd, check the BusterDog (based on Antix) or Beowolf (based on Devuan).
https://debiandog.github.io/doglinux/zz03busterdog.html
BusterDog, based on the Debian ‘Buster’ branch but without systemd.
It’s using special method (taken from AntiX) to avoid systemd by replacing systemd with ‘elogind’.
(and more, e.g. libsystemd replaced by libelogind)
All these brand names are frightening me. GNU already a worry; I must avoid getting sued.
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@wiak If your work is not derived from Puppy and not even inspired by it, and "Puppy Linux" is not a brand that attracts users or like-minded developers, why are you participating in this weird discussion in forum.puppylinux.com?
wiak wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:39 amdimkr wrote: ↑People find Puppy somehow, and the non-Puppy distros get a "free ride" thanks to the "brand" and this forum. This "brand" exists, maybe not officially and legally.
And this is the most laughable piece of nonsense of all. Heard it claimed before by the same general group of Puppy fans. Maybe would have had some truth in it maybeten or fifteen years ago, but since at leat 2013 when DebianDog reared its head as a more full-featured alternative to Puppy Linux, with none of its several major limitations, the claim is ridiculous.
Actually, I feel exactly the opposite is true. Some of the other distros are better than Puppy Linux by quite a lot but since the forum is only widely marketed for Puppy the rest are effectively kept down. But that's a choice I suppose of their creators who probably don't care about distrowarch and other outside "marketing". I was going to withdraw Firstrib from here because I was fed up the nonsense of such claims and only care if I use it. But rockedge in particular, wanted its maintenance/discussion to remain here, which was understandable considering how much of his own time he has spent using the system to build his own distros such as KLV-Airedale. Nevertheless, I moved firstrib topics themselves into 'Other' distros and one day, if I could be bothered to, maybe I would take some variants to Distrowatch or FirstRib websites, to escape limited nature of Puppy itself in terms of marketing this forum. I probably won't though because I'm not really interested in it other than for my own use, and I'm actually more interested now in using KL_full2frugal instances of big distros like Linux Mint.
''Free ride' on the back of Puppy. What a joke...
Surely, other distributions like DD, KL, etc. DO get some exposure on this site (whether it's significant is debatable). I don't know why you want to deny this with all your might. Your denial of this is quite strange and laughable. And stop bashing Puppy, why do you do it? We understand that you don't like Puppy but give it a rest mate. That's all...
The crisis is everywhere. I (FOR NOW) use Fossapup as the main system, although I planned it as a backup. Mint was supposed to be the main one. However, Mint has become a spare, and Fossapup is the main one.
Well, I've never hidden that I gravitate towards Ubuntu-based distributions (Tahrpup, Bionicpup, Fossapup... @666philb Phil - thank you 
).
But now I have removed Mint and decided to switch to pure Arch.
As soon as I discover that I can't manually update my mutant Fossapup... But I will read the forum (I wonder who will win). Maybe draw something for the distro I liked.
Fossapup OS, Ryzen 5 3600 CPU, 64 GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4 GB, Sound Blaster Audigy Rx with amplifier + Yamaha speakers for loud sound, USB Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro V3 + headphones for quiet sound.
amethyst wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:51 amwiak wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 1:39 amdimkr wrote: ↑People find Puppy somehow, and the non-Puppy distros get a "free ride" thanks to the "brand" and this forum. This "brand" exists, maybe not officially and legally.
And this is the most laughable piece of nonsense of all. Heard it claimed before by the same general group of Puppy fans. Maybe would have had some truth in it maybeten or fifteen years ago, but since at leat 2013 when DebianDog reared its head as a more full-featured alternative to Puppy Linux, with none of its several major limitations, the claim is ridiculous.
...
''Free ride' on the back of Puppy. What a joke...Surely, other distributions like DD, KL, etc. DO get some exposure on this site (whether it's significant is debatable). I don't know why you want to deny this with all your might. Your denial of this is quite strange and laughable. And stop bashing Puppy, why do you do it? We understand that you don't like Puppy but give it a rest mate. That's all...
Of course you couldn't care less who it was actually started the 'bashing'. Yet it is there above in your post 'the non-Puppy distros get a "free ride"'. Whether any SEO truth about that or not - it is a nasty little slight and an unnecessary one. The only thing I had said prior to that was that I felt dimkr's most recent slimmed-down woof-CE cloned Vdpup was going in the right direction. The opposite of 'bashing'. So no need to start commenting about the free ride non-Puppy distros. Usual story of course. Give it a rest mate.
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Yeah, you are right. You are always right. Any further comments about the free-riders? No worries mate. No skin off my back.
You are too daft to even realise I was supporting your recent distro developments as looking good to me. You can't help yourself - needed to try and downgrade the status and capabilities of free-rider distros who don't use version control systems for their publication like you so professionally do. Seems that anything good or better about non-Puppy distros must have been inspired or copied from the way Puppy does things. A lot of rubbish, but dream on and pretend if that helps you convince the Puppy users that your way forward for Puppy future is not sacrilege. You and then wee anikin per your usuals - give it a rest indeed - seems you can't. Doesn't matter - any crap you like.
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Please, show us one open source project with thousands of users, years of development and >10 contributors, which doesn't use version control. This is not about "status", but about practicality: it's hard to collaborate or see who changed what, when and why, without version control. In my experience, only those that refuse to collaborate deny the usefulness of version control, CI, release automation and other (proven) tools for collaboration.
Your ideas grew on fertile ground, not in a vacuum
Don't worry too much about it - we are managing.
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Got it, you're not interested in improving the "bus factor" of your projects.
