Need advice to make Puppy as lean as possible

[knownuthin]

New to Puppy Linux and could use some advice.

My goal is to utilize a small Dell 3040 running VNC to control it remotely. I plan to run just one small 32 bit "Wine" program which will control other electronic hardware. Wine will not be utilized to run any of the many other Windows programs.

Currently I have a Fossapup64 running from a 64 GB USB stick. I have VNC and SSHD working fine for remote control, finally have Wine up and running. I must say the whole process was a learning curve for me.

My issue now is, not knowing how much program and file space would needed when I first started I used the entire 64 gig partition. Being able to shrink that partition down to the minimum unused size is no biggie later on. Where I made my worst mistake was enlarging the personal storage space to 4 GB. (Big Mistake !) I found even 2 GB would have been more than plenty for my needs.

Now I have the issue of the fossapup save file enlarged and it consuming an extra 2 GB of unneeded space. Leaves me with the Question --- is there any secret way to free up the unused Personal Storage Space similar to resizing partitions in GParted? My Reading says NO but thought I'd ask the guru's

Ultimately I want to run Puppy Linux from the Dell 3040 internal flash disk (8GB) and need everything to fit in roughly 7GB of space.

Since a start from scratch, is going to be needed. I thought I'd ask for advice on how to make things as lean as possible.
When it comes to pup_save choices, if using folders rather than files. I could use some pointers or examples when it comes to linking things.

[mikewalsh]

@knownuthin :- to the "kennels"..!

Where I made my worst mistake was enlarging the personal storage space to 4 GB. (Big Mistake !) I found even 2 GB would have been more than plenty for my needs.

Hm. O-kayyy.....

Actually, the mistake you made was in using the old-fashioned save-file..! What you really want to be using is the more modern, and way more flexible save-folder...

The save-file is a special, compressed file, containing an entire, Linux-formatted file-system within. Puppy, like all distros, expects to find itself using a Linux file-system. The save-file, in the early days, enabled those with FAT32 or NTFS file-systems to run Puppy from actually inside Windows itself, or to otherwise use existing storage without the need to re-format. With me so far?

Now; the save-'folder'. As its name implies, it is just that.....a folder (or directory, as we call 'em.) Hence, it is able to expand/contract in size according to the contents - like any directory can. However, the save-folder will only function on an already Linux- formatted file-system; FAT32 and NTFS don't support the Unix/Linux concept of 'soft' links, so some stuff therefore doesn't work as it should. And the cluster/block arrangement is different from what's expected. Etc, etc....

The save-file was always easy to expand. But it's an absolute pig to try and make smaller, and entails a lot of messing-about.

-----------------------------------

You can already see that the save-folder is a lot simpler to use, yes?

It's easy enough to swap over. As an example:-

Your save-file is called "fossapup64save.3fs". (It could also be .2fs, or it could be .4fs...) .3fs shows it's formatted as ext3 inside..... whereas .4fs would show it was internally formatted to ext4. And so on...

Make sure you do the following somewhere with plenty of available space:-

• Create a new, blank directory - rt-clk in a blank part of your ROX-filer window -> New -> Directory. Name this directory to whatever your save-file is called, MINUS the .2fs, .3fs or .4fs

• Mount your save-file by clicking on it. A new window should pop-up showing the contents of the save-file

• Copy the contents of the save-file into the new save-folder

• You now have a working save-folder!

Unmount your save-file by clicking on it again, then move it out of the way to a safe location.....just in case.

-------------------------------------

Make sure the new save-folder is in the same location as the old save-file. Now, re-boot.....and test to see if everything is as you left it. No doubt I've left something out; others will correct me if that's the case.

Mike.

[dancytron]

I'm not sure it matters in this exact case, but before you copy everything from the mounted save file, make sure you enable "show hidden files" in rox filer so you don't miss anything.

[Chelsea80]

@ mikewalsh

Thank you for helping @ knownuthin out because it has helped me too -

My questions are:

Does your 'fix' apply to any Puppy distro, specifically mine (in signature) -

And, should @ dancytron advice be used as a matter of course -

Best regards

Chelsea80

[rcrsn51]

Copy the contents of the save-file into the new save-folder

I would be careful with this. Even though Puppy is a run-as-root distro, it contains stuff with non-root ownership/permissions. When you run your "copy" operation as root, there is a possibility that everything in the new save folder gets root ownership. This could break things.

[wizard]

If you are moving to your internal drive, I'd try this (overview):

Assuming the 3040 is UEFI boot.

-Boot from your USB

-Use gparted to delete all partitions on the internal drive
--create a 100mb fat32 partition and make bootable
--create the rest of the drive as a ext3 partition

-Menu>Setup>Frugalpup>Puppy>this - install to the ext3 partition

-Menu>Setup>Frugalpup>Boot> - install to the fat32 partition

This should make the internal drive a bootable copy of your USB.

Last, install (on internal drive) and run savefile2dir-1.6 to convert your savefile into a save folder.

savefile2dir-1.6.pet

(3.76 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

Done

Note: you could do this same operation onto another USB if wanted.

wizard

[bigpup]

The save folder has to be placed on a partition formatted using a Linux format.
Ext 2, 3, or 4.

You cannot make a save folder on a Windows formatted location. (ntfs or fat32 format)

I bet you have the 64GB USB stick formatted fat32.

So to have a save folder on it, you will need to add a partition formatted in ext 3 or 4.
Making a place to store the save folder.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the internal drive install.

Do this running Fossapup64 from the USB and use programs in it.

This is how I do installs to any type drive that only Puppy Linux is going to be on it:

WARNING:
Drive labels are going to depend on number of drives on the computer.
So, you do need to be careful to select the correct drive label, when offered to select.

Note:
Frugalpup Installer has a newer version than the one in Fossapup64.
You may want to install it before using Frugalpup installer.
viewtopic.php?p=1588#p1588

This is what I do.

Note:
written for USB drive, but same procedure for any type drive if Puppy Linux is only on it.

Use Gparted program.
Setup the USB stick with 2 partitions.
First one, small 300MB, fat32 format, flagged boot. (location for boot loader files, boot partition)
Rest of drive, whatever other partition(s), but one ext3 or 4 format. (location to put frugal installs)
(this is UEFI standard requirement, and some computers, look for a fat32 partition, for boot loader files)

Run Frugalpup Installer main program.
On the main window are selection buttons.
Select the Puppy button, to do the install.
Go through install process, selecting to install to the ext formatted partition.
Note:
When selecting the partition to install to.
A window pops up, giving option to make a directory, to put the frugal install in.
I make this directory and usually name it, the name of the Puppy version.
Carefully read that windows info.
Press enter, makes the directory, not the OK button.
complete the install.

When it gets back to the main Frugalpup window.
Select the boot button.
Select the location of the frugal install, on the USB stick.
Select the small 300MB partition on the USB stick, as location to install the boot loader. (may need to scroll the selection window)
Select the boot loader type.
UEFI
mbr ->legacy bios boot
both

You can install the UEFI for UEFI computers, mbr for legacy bios computers, or both, to boot anything.

The UEFI will also install the needed files, to support secure boot enabled in UEFI.

When you first boot the USB stick, on a UEFI computer, with secure boot enabled.
A process will start, to allow you to install the Puppy security key, to the computer.
It will add this Puppy key, to the other ones, loaded on the computer.

Note:
Not all UEFI computers are the same, for booting from a USB stick.
Some may require secure boot disabled, CSM enabled, or legacy boot enabled, to be able to boot from a USB stick.
So, for those computers.
The mbr boot loader will work, because the UEFI bios, is basically in, legacy bios operation.
Some computer bios setups have option to enable/disable USB booting. That would need to be enabled.

To put more frugal installs on the same USB stick.
Do the complete process again, for the new Puppy version.
When you run the boot loader install.
It will make entries, for all installs it finds, on the USB drive.

[bigpup]

I suggest making the boot partition 300MB size, so it has some free space you may want to use, for storing something.

I usually add image files to my boot loaders, so there is a image showing for the background of the boot menu.

That image file needs to be placed in same location of the other boot loader files.

But 100MB size is OK to hold the normal setup of a boot loader, on a boot partition.

[geo_c]

I would be careful with this. Even though Puppy is a run-as-root distro, it contains stuff with non-root ownership/permissions. When you run your "copy" operation as root, there is a possibility that everything in the new save folder gets root ownership. This could break things.

I ran into this issue using F96_CE. What I found is that copying the savefolder from one device to another using Xfe file manager changed some permissions and caused issues with Pulse Audio.

The solution is to do the copying in a terminal using cp command with the -arv options, like this:

Code: Select all

cp -arv /mnt/home/fossapup64_9.6/fossapup64save-MYSAVE /mnt/MY-TARGET-LOCATION

[mikewalsh]

@rcrsn51 :-

Hence why I said that others would no doubt correct things in my post. I was almost certain I'd left stuff out.....

(*shrug...*)

@geo_c :-

Thanks for the tip, mate. I'll make a note of that, and do a wee bit of research so's I understand what's happening there. Cheers!

@Chelsea80 :-

Umm.....as far as I'm aware, it doesn't apply to all Puppies. It should, however, work certainly as far back as Tahrpup.....and maybe even some late 5-series Puppies. AFAIK, I believe this is controlled by the initrd.gz, depending on whether it's been written to recognise a save-folder; there again, I could be wrong once more....

It HAS been known!

Mike.

[mikeslr]

I'm not sure anyone mentioned this. [Pre-2nd cup of coffee, so may not have digested everything in prior posts.]

Edit: See post script.

YOU CAN'T ACCURATELY COPY CONTENTS OF A SAVEFILE WHILE ITS IN USE. You have to boot into Puppy without employing the SaveFile, AKA 'pfix=ram'. Instructions for booting pfix=ram are given at the bottom of this post, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 452#p94452

A couple of things. While it is possible to remove built-in applications from a Puppy (so as to reduce their size) doing so is time-consuming with little gain. See, viewtopic.php?p=4070&sid=00d073d94a686e ... bd9c#p4070. That said, 666philb created a 'bare-bones' --boot to working desktop with little else-- in a clever way. Puppys are modular, consisting of separately packaged file-systems which --except for the SaveFile/Folder-- are copied into RAM and layered one-on-top-of another with priorities [sort of like graphic programs use layering]. You only see and get to use what's on top in RAM. Usually File-and-Window managers and all other applications are located in a core/base file-system. In fossapup64 it would have the name puppy_fossapup64_9.5.sfs. But 666philb did something clever. He put most applications in a file-system named adrv_fossapup64_9.5.sfs. You can remove/delete adrv_fossapup64_9.5.sfs and fossapup64 will still boot to a working desktop. If not removed, its contents will have priority in RAM over the contents of puppy_fossapup64_9.5.sfs.

Some of us, myself included, thought that 666philb removed too much. Ozsouth has recently remastered fossapup64, starting without using the adrv.sfs and adding applications to the core/base file-system. You'll find various versions discussed in the Remaster Section, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=119 . If you're interested, I'd recommend the latest fossapup64-9.5-bas-7.iso you can download from this thread. https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 891#p92891.

Fossapup64 is a 64-bit operating system. It is likely that the program you want to run under Wine is a 32-bit program. The easiest way to run 32-bit Windows programs under a 64-bit Linux Operating System is to use MikeWalsh's wine-5.11-portable, https://www.forum.puppylinux.com/viewto ... 191#p68191

p.s. Well, I see I missed wizard's post in which he provided a pet to create a SaveFolder from a SaveFile. @wizard, will it work with any Puppy? If not, limitations? Either way, could you post it to the Additional Software>Utilities Thread? @ amethyst, perhaps add it to a new version of Utilities as a companion to its SaveFolder2SaveFile.

@ Chelsea80, Yes, dancytron advice should be used as a matter of course, and Mikewalsh's advice is applicable to all Puppys. In fact the 'Rule of Thumb' is that what works with one Puppy will work with another subject to the following exceptions:
(a) Booting instructions depend on whether or not a computer employs the UEFI mechanism.
(b) Most applications are not 'Universal'. Generally, they fall into two categories (64-bit or 32-bit) each with two divisions (those for Slackware based Puppys, and those for Ubuntu or debian based Puppys). Utilities, on the other hand, are most often just 'bash scripts' and can be used in all Puppys. The same is true of AppImages and Portables; but those are primarily built for Ubuntu/debians: Slackos may require that missing libraries be installed. To be safe, however, you can try anything if your boot 'pfix=ram' or under PupMode 13, restart-x, and test before preserving anything to your system by executing a Save.. Portables and AppImages can always to tried as they never become part of your operating system.
(c) A further complication with applications (other than portables and Appimages and most 'just-bash-scripts) is that some new Puppys (VanillaDpup, Jammypup64, and Bookworm AND likely any subsequent Puppy not based on Slackware) have limitations as to where libraries can be located. Applications and file-systems built for older Puppys can't be used OOTB; if at all.

[knownuthin]

Wow... what super feedback. Will give all a read and work my way through everyone's advice and hopefully achieve my goal.
Will post my results later ...Thanks to All.

[Chelsea80]

@ mikesir

Thanks for explaining the finite details, very helpful -

Bearing in mind what @ rcrsn51 said:

I would be careful with this. Even though Puppy is a run-as-root distro, it contains stuff with non-root ownership/permissions. When you run your "copy" operation as root, there is a possibility that everything in the new save folder gets root ownership. This could break things.

It makes sense to go the way you suggested:

To be safe, however, you can try anything if your boot 'pfix=ram' or under PupMode 13, restart-x, and test before preserving anything to your system by executing a Save.

Best regards

Chelsea80

[rockedge]

I would be careful with this. Even though Puppy is a run-as-root distro, it contains stuff with non-root ownership/permissions. When you run your "copy" operation as root, there is a possibility that everything in the new save folder gets root ownership. This could break things.

This is very important. It can be scripted to check and adjust if needed the permissions/ownership for certain key areas.

[mikeslr]

"rcrsn51 wrote:

I would be careful with this. Even though Puppy is a run-as-root distro, it contains stuff with non-root ownership/permissions. When you run your "copy" operation as root, there is a possibility that everything in the new save folder gets root ownership. This could break things."

I've read of, but never experienced, that issue. Likely because the only applications I DON'T RUN as root --and IMHO, the only applications for which there's a reason not to-- are some of MikeWalsh's portable web-browsers which run as spot. Copying them (Right-Click Duplicate) as root doesn't create a problem, I think, because his LAUNCH scripts when run always re-assigns spot privileges.

Other than didiwiki and installed web-browsers that are configured to run-as-spot, what applications employ other than root privileges?

[rockedge]

/root/Web-Server is by default owned by user:group = webserver:webgroup. Which very important since it can be the web root of a local web server facing Internet.

When a MySQL or a mariaDB database or a SQLite type database server(s) usually have key directories owned by a user = mysql:mysql which may or may not be a system user.

I run all of my local web servers as www-data:www-data and most databases as root or user = mysql:mysql so all of the directories associated with any of these servers need to have correct ownership's to function correctly and safely.

[knownuthin]

@mikewalsh
I want to thank you for that information on converting from a save file to a folder. Your instructions worked perfectly.
My remaining question about the save file shortcut on the desktop. It was created as a save to file. How do I make it save to folder?
do I delete that one and create a different one.

@wizard
Thank you for your instructions moving things to the internal flash drive. I had previously loaded a Debian version of Linux but the 8 GB limitation ruled that out once wine began loading, I ran out of memory. Next was to try a Puppy install. Appears now that it should work. As I read further I see you mentioned and posted a .pet file for converting the save from file to folder. Since I already created a folder and removed the save file totally is that still something I need to run. As I asked @mikewalsh I am confused about how to make it switch the save function from file to folder.

@ bigpup
A big thank you goes to you also.
Lots of good advice when it comes to moving things to the internal flash drive. I'm amazed at the things Puppy Linux does. However I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the way things work. Just one comment your fat32 bet was wrong (grin)the USB was ext4 except for the boot partition.

Not normally a user of forums but I am really impressed with all the people on here who jumped in with help and cautions.
Thank You everyone

[Pikaxhu]

Hi

You could also check this post with additional ideas about this topic:

https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=4591

Regards

Pika

[wizard]

Since I already created a folder and removed the save file totally is that still something I need to run

If you've already converted, no need to run it.

As I asked @mikewalsh I am confused about how to make it switch the save function from file to folder.

No action required, if you boot from the save folder it should save to that folder by default.

wizard

[mikeslr]

I just re-read knownuthin's OP:
"My goal is to utilize a small Dell 3040 running VNC to control it remotely. I plan to run just one small 32 bit "Wine" program which will control other electronic hardware. Wine will not be utilized to run any of the many other Windows programs."

Not to drive knownuthin's nuts, but @rockedge or anyone familiar with VNC, could that objective be obtained using a 32-bit Puppy? 32-bit OSes generally require less storage space and RAM; and 32-bit Wine can be run without having to use a 32-bit compatibility application.

Maybe dimkr's 32-bit VanillaDpup or peebee's 32-bit S15Pup?

Ignore the above if completely off-base. Still working on 1st cup of coffee.

knownuthin, your question about the desktop Save Launcher. On USB-deployments, these are automatically created if either a SaveFile or SaveFolder exists, and would automatically be removed when you have none. It activates the Save application rather than pointing to a particular storage location. So the current Launcher now functions with your SaveFolder.

[wizard]

@mikeslr

Not to drive knownuthin's nuts, but @rockedge or anyone familiar with VNC, could that objective be obtained using a 32-bit Puppy? 32-bit OSes generally require less storage space and RAM; and 32-bit Wine can be run without having to use a 32-bit compatibility application.

Yes, could run on a 32bit Pup, I'd try Bionic, but since the Dell 3040 has 8gb internal drive and will have a minimum of Intel I3 cpu and 2gb ram I'm guessing the gain would be small. If OP's unit has 4gb ram or more, then there is probably no real gain.

Edit: some of the 3040's had Intel Atom X5-Z8350 quadcore cpu which are slower than the I3's. Those machines would show the biggest gain from using a 32bit Pup.

wizard