Questions re: putting two Linux OS's on the same machine

[Jimer]

Hi all,
I want to create a Debian system in an extended partition, with / root and /home in two separate partitions within the extended. Swap will be in another primary partition.
I also intend to install Puppy to the same machine.
Its a Dell Latitude D630 laptop with 2 Gig ram (option up to 4G) with BIOS not uefi

Is it better to use the frugal method or the full installation(i guess in a separate partition) ?
I also have the following questions:
1. Is it possible for the two os’ s to share the same swap partition ? If so will i have to assign the same swap during installation and,
2. Is this also possible to share as above the same /home partition for both systems?
Any help is welcome.

[Jasper]

It is not recommended to create a full installation.

Best to stick to 1 question per thread. Easier to follow suggestions/instructions.

Maybe this will help

viewtopic.php?t=8386

[amethyst]

You can run as many Frugal Puppys as you like on one partition. You save changes to either a save file or save folder and each Puppy has it's own save file/folder. Yes, you can use the same swap partition or swap file for different Puppys.

[mikewalsh]

Hello, @Jimer .....and to the "kennels".

I have the exact same machine. I have 4GB RAM, and a 120GB SSD. (Not fitted by me, since I bought this second-hand off eBay last year to replace an even older 2002 Dell Inspiron on which the graphics had finally gone bad. I'm stuck with the Nvidia Quadro graphics chip, too.... )

I believe @wizard runs one of these as well.

Puppy runs absolutely brilliant on here. If you're wanting to run Puppy AND Debian - and you want to give Debian multiple partitions - I think you'll first need to create a small EFI 'boot' partition, formatted FAT32. Despite that the D630 is traditional MBR, Debian will expect to SEE an EFI boot partition.....regardless of whether it's needed. This is where the bootloader will live.

(I could be wrong about this bit. I run ONLY Puppies, y'see.)

I'd then create sda2 with ext3, and install Puppy on here as a 'frugal' install, preferably within its own uniquely-named sub-directory. When I say 'frugal', let me clarify that this does NOT mean a 'poor-man's', stripped-back version. Far from it. A 'frugal' Puppy is still the full system, still the "real deal".....but 'frugal' refers to the fact of Puppy always being careful with the amount of space it takes up on your drive. Everything is loaded into a 'virtual' RAMdisk - within RAM - from highly-compressed, read-only files.....instead of having the entire file system taking up a partition all by itself.

Create sda3 as your swap partition, say, 2-4 GB. Both installs will see, and use the same swap partition.

I would then create sda4 as your 'extended' partition.....and install Debian within this under ext4 (this being what mainstream distros use), creating additional 'logical' partitions as necessary.

----------------------------------------------------

This is the way that I would do it. Others may have different suggestions. I haven't run mainstream distros for a LONG while, and even then I never mixed them with Puppies...

Mike.

[williwaw]

Is it possible for the two os’ s to share the same swap partition ? If so will i have to assign the same swap during installation

puppy will find the swap on its own.

Is this also possible to share as above the same /home partition for both systems

puppys /home is actually a virtual filesystem mounted at /mnt/home. it has a dedicated icon on the desktop to open the filemanager in that dir

puppy has an other desktop icon for each partition that opens the filemanager at the top level of that partition, so if you were to make your frugal installs in your existing /home partition things might be simpler

[wizard]

@Jimer

I think you'll first need to create a small EFI 'boot' partition, formatted FAT32.

@mikewalsh is correct, you should make a 100mb FAT32 as the first partition on the drive, name it ESP. This will be required by the grub2 boot loader.

wizard

[bigpup]

First,
You need to do the Debian install using whatever it uses to do the install.

It will probably setup the drive the way Debian wants it setup.

All Puppy needs for a frugal install is a partition to install on.

Whatever is the largest partition made by the Debian installer.

Do the Puppy frugal install on it.
Boot Puppy installed on a USB or CD using programs in Puppy to do the frugal install to the internal drive.

You want to keep the Debian installed boot loader as the one booting the computer.
Most likely it is Grub2.

Now you have to get the boot loader to have an entry to boot the Puppy install.

This will require you to make a manual entry for Puppy in the boot loader menu config file.

This topic talks about ways to do this:
viewtopic.php?t=437

After you get Puppy installed.
Tell us what partition and the directory name the frugal install is in.
Should be able to help you figure out what the boot menu entry needs to be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the drive is using a msdos partition table.
The computer is a legacy type bios not UEFI.
Puppy has the Grub4dos boot loader config program.
This tries to install a boot loader with an entry to boot all Linux OS's it finds installed.

Not 100% sure it will make a good entry to boot Debian.

Grub4dos will now be the boot loader that boots the computer.

The latest version of Grub4dos config program is best one to use.
Should be in the newer Puppy versions.

[bigpup]

Puppy uses it's own Linux file system that is inside the frugal install.
When Puppy boots.
It's operating file system is loaded into memory and used by Puppy.

It uses no already made partitions other than the partition the frugal install is on.
So it will not use a home partition used by another OS.

If there is a swap partition. Puppy will see and use it.

You only need a single swap partition.

Note:
Puppy has it's own file system, that is similar to a standard Linux file system, but does have some differences.

[Jimer]

Hello, @Jimer .....and to the "kennels".

I have the exact same machine. I have 4GB RAM, and a 120GB SSD. (Not fitted by me, since I bought this second-hand off eBay last year to replace an even older 2002 Dell Inspiron on which the graphics had finally gone bad. I'm stuck with the Nvidia Quadro graphics chip, too.... )

I believe @wizard runs one of these as well.

Puppy runs absolutely brilliant on here. If you're wanting to run Puppy AND Debian - and you want to give Debian multiple partitions - I think you'll first need to create a small EFI 'boot' partition, formatted FAT32. Despite that the D630 is traditional MBR, Debian will expect to SEE an EFI boot partition.....regardless of whether it's needed. This is where the bootloader will live.

(I could be wrong about this bit. I run ONLY Puppies, y'see.)

I'd then create sda2 with ext3, and install Puppy on here as a 'frugal' install, preferably within its own uniquely-named sub-directory.

Create a new partition sda2 to only frugal install in it with ext3 files (and not ext4). am i missing something here ?

When I say 'frugal', let me clarify that this does NOT mean a 'poor-man's', stripped-back version. Far from it. A 'frugal' Puppy is still the full system, still the "real deal".....but 'frugal' refers to the fact of Puppy always being careful with the amount of space it takes up on your drive. Everything is loaded into a 'virtual' RAMdisk - within RAM - from highly-compressed, read-only files.....instead of having the entire file system taking up a partition all by itself.

Create sda3 as your swap partition, say, 2-4 GB. Both installs will see, and use the same swap partition.

I would then create sda4 as your 'extended' partition.....and install Debian within this under ext4 (this being what mainstream distros use), creating additional 'logical' partitions as necessary.

I was thinking of installing Debian first at the beginning of the disk, after that, proceed with Puppy

----------------------------------------------------

This is the way that I would do it. Others may have different suggestions. I haven't run mainstream distros for a LONG while, and even then I never mixed them with Puppies...

Mike.

[Jimer]

Is it possible for the two os’ s to share the same swap partition ? If so will i have to assign the same swap during installation

puppy will find the swap on its own.

Is this also possible to share as above the same /home partition for both systems

puppys /home is actually a virtual filesystem mounted at /mnt/home. it has a dedicated icon on the desktop to open the filemanager in that dir

puppy has an other desktop icon for each partition that opens the filemanager at the top level of that partition, so if you were to make your frugal installs in your existing /home partition things might be simpler

I will surely create a home partition for Debian but smaller than /root. can i do Puppy frugal install in Debian’ s /root partition which will be larger or not recommended ?

[Jimer]

Hello, @Jimer .....and to the "kennels".
@mikewalsh Hi Mike and thank you for your support- Dimitris
I have the exact same machine. I have 4GB RAM, and a 120GB SSD. (Not fitted by me, since I bought this second-hand off eBay last year to replace an even older 2002 Dell Inspiron on which the graphics had finally gone bad. I'm stuck with the Nvidia Quadro graphics chip, too.... )

I believe @wizard runs one of these as well.

Puppy runs absolutely brilliant on here. If you're wanting to run Puppy AND Debian - and you want to give Debian multiple partitions - I think you'll first need to create a small EFI 'boot' partition, formatted FAT32. Despite that the D630 is traditional MBR, Debian will expect to SEE an EFI boot partition.....regardless of whether it's needed. This is where the bootloader will live.

(I could be wrong about this bit. I run ONLY Puppies, y'see.)

I'd then create sda2 with ext3, and install Puppy on here as a 'frugal' install, preferably within its own uniquely-named sub-directory. When I say 'frugal', let me clarify that this does NOT mean a 'poor-man's', stripped-back version. Far from it. A 'frugal' Puppy is still the full system, still the "real deal".....but 'frugal' refers to the fact of Puppy always being careful with the amount of space it takes up on your drive. Everything is loaded into a 'virtual' RAMdisk - within RAM - from highly-compressed, read-only files.....instead of having the entire file system taking up a partition all by itself.

Create sda3 as your swap partition, say, 2-4 GB. Both installs will see, and use the same swap partition.

I would then create sda4 as your 'extended' partition.....and install Debian within this under ext4 (this being what mainstream distros use), creating additional 'logical' partitions as necessary.

----------------------------------------------------

This is the way that I would do it. Others may have different suggestions. I haven't run mainstream distros for a LONG while, and even then I never mixed them with Puppies...

Mike.

[Jasper]

$echo

[williwaw]

I will surely create a home partition for Debian but smaller than /root. can i do Puppy frugal install in Debian’ s /root partition which will be larger or not recommended ?

you can locate it in any partition.

it is not clear if your debian install will be made to an unformatted disk, or whether you are trying to install debian (and puppy) to an unused partion on a disk with something else in other partitions.

how do you presently, or intend to boot the disk?

PS
if you are going to comment inside a quoted post, would you be kind enough to high light your comment somehow?

[Jimer]

@williwaw Thanks for your answer.
This is a Bios PC with Xubuntu and Windows Vista in the beginning of the drive. Works fine but i will not use this disk.
I will change the drive with a spare internal HDD (100G) with windows 10 installed, which will be removed.
So the disk will be free for Linux only
a) I plan the following pre- partitioning scheme:
- 100 MB primary for boot or ESP
- 60 gig aprox extended
-two logical in it for system files and home, lets say 40G for /root
and 20G for /home
- 4 gig primary for swap
All unformatted. The rest of the space will be free for future needs.

b) During Debian installation i will do as follows:
Partitions will be formatted with ext4 fs, mount points and flags for /boot, /root, /home, swap and will tick (ν) the small boot box for /boot and /root. (is this correct ?) Also not sure i understand the use of flags, are necessary ?
(For your info, i did as above with a usb drive, but installation was completed with errors, however the system boots . I’ ll check this with Debian forum.)
If Debian installation on the HDD succeeds then i will go on for Puppy.

PS: sorry for so much details

[mikewalsh]

@Jimer :-

Frankly, thinking about it - and considering what was mentioned earlier on in the thread - I, too, would just install Debian first. If it wants the whole disk for itself, let it have it. I understand Puppy much better than I used to when I first started, and I now know for a fact that Puppy does NOT need a partion to itself.

I believe if you do what you've suggested - create a "/" partion for Debian + a "/home" partition - that so long as you make "/" a decent size to start with, you can tuck a frugal Puppy install - in its own sub-directory - in "/" as well. I think this would be the easiest for you until you gain more experience with the way Puppy works. You may decide, at a later date, that you want to completely re-do your disk layout.....and you certainly wouldn't be the first.

Just be aware that mainstream distros tend to use the "/" partition for 'storing' old kernels (for 'rollback' purposes). It's an idea to periodically clear out old kernels you won't be using any more. They may be small individually, but the drive space they consume soon mounts up!

BTW:- Never apologise for providing too MUCH detail. Most people never provide enough.....and we have to keep asking for it. Kudos!

Mike.

[williwaw]

@Jimer

thanks for the xrtra details

I have found most distro installers work ok if you accept the defaults and typically will want to...
reformat your disk
install a boot manager,

Your mileage might vary depending on your experience with any particular linux installer if you are directing it to install to a specific partition in a pre-partitioned disk. So, If in the future, you want to replace debian with a different linux flavor, then you may well be working with a different installer to force an install into the pre partitioned disk. The risk being you might accidently reformat your disk so having a backup plan when running installers is always a good idea.

Although backing up a puppy install is as easy as copying a directory to an external disk, restoring a puppy install requires you copy the directory back and also create an entry in whatever boot manager your disk has at the time.

As you will need an external disk to back up to anyway, why not keep your primary puppy maintained on a dedicated USB? Puppy is designed to run from a virtual filesystem in memory so you may not notice much difference running it either from a decent USB or an internal drive.

Just guessing you might want to try a few different puppies out before too long, and the debian hdd will work fine for that

BTW
the basic steps to creating a frugal install is to......
create a directory
open an ISO and copy its contents into the directory
add a stanza to your bootloaders config file

[Jimer]

@mikewalsh , @williwaw

Perfect. Thank very much both of you for the clarifications. These are very well targeted and helpful.

Although i know puppy GUI through photos and icons only, am of the impression that will be a very good compact alternative. Also i’ m glad to say that following our discussion, i have now a better view of some important aspects of how Puppy functions.
You know i’ m with Linux since almost 2017 with Lubuntu and later Xubuntu using as my main OS (no more Windows os) and consider myself somehow as a ‘semi-advanced’ user.
Now i’ ll have a look on some Debian issues.
If these issues are solved then i will go for the Puppy installation.

[glene77is]

Thanks to mikewalsh, Jimer, Amethyst, et al, for bringing up this interesting "system install" topic.
...
Linux can be very flexible and different OS can be used without conflict, if you watch your "PsQs".
...
It is possible to have a dozen different Puppy OS on one computer.
I have 15 Puppy OS installed as frugal to support my interests in reading the system BASH code.
... And also PartitionMagic (Slacko) for emergencies when I muck-up something.
In the past I have had a similar installations, including Ubuntu and WATT(ubuntu) and TinyCore 4.0 ... all on same HardDrive.
I boot from any of several FlashDrives, jumping to the HD, or boot directly from the main HardDrive.
... I have booted from the HD and rebooted to FlashDrives rebooting a sequence FD, just for testing, then back to the HD.
... FlashDrives (FD) are wonderful, just 12MB transfer rate. I use several 256GB FD, culling extra files at the 90% full level.
... HardDrives (HD) are fast , transfer rate > 100MB. I have three, total over 1 TB, and I installed additional fans for cooling.
...
I use a very standard AMD computer, with a bios dated 2009, booting from either hard-drive or FlashDrive .
Years back, I setup the NTFS hard-drive with a large EXT3 partition for all my Linux projects.
To run multi-boot (Linux and M$XP),
... I replaced the actual "ntldr" with "wxldr" which contains the original "ntldr" code, and "chain loader" back into the Windows.
... I retained the Windows partition until recently, when I simplified my computer to be all Linux .
... I no longer use a "chain loader" method to re-ignite the Windows system ... it is gone.
Now, the computer is all "EXT3" and all "Linux" .

...
I use the M$XP MasterBootRecord (original) which seeks "ntldr" by name and runs any 386 code inside this file.
... I replaced "ntldr" code with "grldr" code. M$XP MBR seeks "ntldr" and runs the code inside this file.
... That is how I boot from original M$XP MBR and support multi-booting, via the Linux grldr code and menu.lst.
... real ntldr is 245 MB o 386 code.
...... ntldr-245MB-is-"wxldr" to allow Linux menu.lst to "chain loader" back into Windows.
... real grldr is 215 MB of 386 code.
...... ntldr-215MB-is-"grldr" which ignites "menu.lst" for Linux style menu operations..
... Menu.lst calls are standard, just lots of them because there are 13 or more OS installed frugal.

I hope this post encourages you to explore the flexibility of LINUX.
...