an "Official Puppy Development" section

[mikewalsh]

Without seeming "nasty" about it, guys, it seems to me that most rank-and-file members have already had enough of the interminable debate about layout, and are more-or-less content with the way it now is.

From my viewpoint, the few individuals who ARE still "finding fault" with it are primarily developers, who appear to want the entire thing re-ordered to suit them, and in such a way as to give their "side of things" greater prominence. Unfortunately, even in the open-source world this seems to be a continuing trend; it seems that almost everything these days is done in such a way as to make the lives of devs as easy as possible; the poor old end-user increasingly comes a very distant second in the equation. Wiak himself admitted recently that the whole point of systemd was that it made life extremely easy for devs.....

Hell, why don't we set up a special, separate forum JUST for Puppy developers?

Has it ever occurred to some of you guys/gals that if there was nobody to use the end-product of your labours, there would be very little point in you bothering to CREATE what you do in the first place..?

Whilst I concede that there are, perhaps, still a few changes that COULD be made to improve things, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there has to be a 'happy medium' that will satisfy most folks. It's long been said that the art of compromise is that of finding the narrow path which, while not "satisfying" absolutely everybody, does have the merit of being something which everybody can at least LIVE with.....

(Having said which, I further concede that while it probably doesn't occur to most members, our Puppy developers are at least as important in the grand scheme of things as the common or garden 'users' who utilise their creations on a daily basis.....)

You cannae please all the folks, all of the time. 'Taint possible!

Just my two-penn'orth, FWIW. Feel free to ignore me. I'm sure most of you will..!


Mike.

[wanderer]

hi all

isn't it wonderful that we have such a great forum to come to
without which we would not have this great puppy community

and such a great bunch of developers
that give of their time and expertise
to create all these masterpieces

and such a great group of users
that hopefully appreciate all that has been given them
and contribute their input to help improve things

in my opinion just having the forum is enough
and it seems pretty well workable now
but i can see where the developers would want to fine tune stuff
they are after all developers

so here is my organization suggestion

3 main sections
subsections as needed

1. official puppies and puppy related projects (including old and unique puppies)
2. projects inspired by puppy (not puppy but following the puppy ideals)
3. misc stuff (discussions on forum structure etc)

anyway thanks everyone
its been fun

wanderer

[wiak]

When posting you agree that the administrators/moderators of this forum have the right to modify, remove, edit or close any topic, posting, signature, account, or profile data at any time that they see fit. Any source code published will be assumed to have been made freely available, be free to be redistributed and/or modified - unless expressly indicated otherwise by the poster.

Yes, overall I like rufwoof's suggestion above the best. Adds some extra important information (indicating clearly that admin/moderators have overall say) without forcing a specific open-source license when a specific license has not been "expressly indicated otherwise by the poster". Indeed, I'd suggest it gives an incentive to the poster to indicate a preferred license since without one, the main statement "free to be redistributed and/or modified", contains no restrictions to prevent anyone modifying the source code from redistributing the modified result with a license of their own choosing. I think that 'freedom' is very important; especially for code snippets. Would be wrong to insist GPLv3 since that would prevent any snippets of code being taken and used elsewhere and published with different (e.g. MIT) open-source license.

If a code submitter really wants special restrictions then the onus is on them to indicate license on what they submit; if they choose not to then tough if they don't like how modified versions end up licensed... i.e. If you want to put restrictions on how your code is used, or distributed, specify a license! (assuming the code is original enough to claim copyright in the first place of course). It is very important the forum makes such a statement regarding acceptable code submissions though since, as I've pointed out earlier, code that does not specify license is otherwise by default copyright its author so not open-source in the sense of 'freedom to use, modify, redistribute' at all.

In regards to mike's comments about the discussions on this thread only being of interest to developers (in terms of forum organisation anyway). Well, I do think most creators of sizable time-consuming pieces of work might well care about how their creations are used or abused in terms of modification and redistribution. We can't force anyone to share their code or even to allow it to be freely distributed but it only seems fair that those developers who only want to show off their work here but not allow its free redistribution should at least be obliged to make that clear via a license declaration since they are also benefiting here from the work of other more generous developers. That might not interest most 'users' but it probably should since developers who do contribute freely may not happily keep doing so. Also, if developers don't find the overall forum platform restrictive to their development needs they also may take their development discussions/ideas/efforts elsewhere - telling developers they need the users and not the other way round is not only arguable but also doesn't address a need that has been clearly raised by a developer whose package management system is now an important core piece of Puppy system software.

[rockedge]

When posting you agree that the administrators/moderators of this forum have the right to modify, remove, edit or close any topic, posting, signature, account, or profile data at any time that they see fit. Any source code published will be assumed to have been made freely available, be free to be redistributed and/or modified - unless expressly indicated otherwise by the poster.

I am using this statement on the License page.

Now since we can make static pages easily anything else that needs one could be created.

Perhaps a page that has a list of all the links to the repos and mirrors that make up the Puppy Linux World.

Also there is now a integrated PAYPAL donation system added to the forum. It is not yet configured or active. Goals and other stop points can be set up. Being fully integrated, when turned on will display the donation button in the header. Most likely I would consider limited fund drives for operation costs. This is now open also for discussion and I may start a new post / thread when more has been discussed and agreed upon.

A small note: the static pages can be configured to parse HTML so pages can be built with a little pizzazz (eye candy-ish)

[wiak]

Has it ever occurred to some of you guys/gals that if there was nobody to use the end-product of your labours, there would be very little point in you bothering to CREATE what you do in the first place..?

Frankly Mike, for me at least that above statement isn't true. For the most part I do not create whatever I create for anyone most of the time other than for some desire of my own or for my family (and for the latter, only because they have indicated they would like me to create something or other since they seem to like having me around to maintain whatever I make).

However, that doesn't mean I have no regard for users. As far as the Puppy Forum is concerned, well its main excellence is for what it's title suggests: it is an excellent forum, and not only for discussions about Puppy Linux, or particular Linux distributions described/discussed here, but also just as a meeting place of somewhat like-minded (despite sometimes argumentative) individuals. Certainly 'like-minded' does not at all imply 'the same' - I have little doubt, for example, that some here really do not like the presence of any non-Pup or non-derivative of Puppy, or only put up with the presence of such mongrels reluctantly (having little choice really). But despite many such differences of attitude or opinion, overall this is a great meeting place. The world itself is full of diverse opinionated characters, and so is this forum, but that is fine. Fact is, however, most Linux forums are very restriction, single-minded, and ultimately boring. Puppy Linux forum is a different kind of forum to these, and that is why we are here, I feel. I certainly also would not like it to simply be yet another developer-centric platform, but I don't think it is or ever will be that - rather it is a place where people of all technical abilities can freely mix without too much pomp and arrogance (occasionally there is some, but overall general users hold the fort and that is for the best in terms of overall forum ambience...).

@rockedge: thank you for license statement choice (and rufwoof for that wording).

[mikewalsh]

@wiak:-

I have to agree with you, Will. Most Linux forums ARE 'boring'!

The Puppy Forum is the only on-line meeting place I have ever found where general users (be they noob, experienced, veteran, whatever), contributors & developers mix & mingle freely and exchange ideas / code snippets / banter with impunity. The overall result has to be one of the friendliest 'watering-holes' for Puppians to be found anywhere online.

I hope no-one here thinks this applies to them - if they do, and are offended, then I apologise in advance! - but I've got the impression over the last several years that developers of too many communities have a horrible tendency to closet themselves away in their 'ivory towers', and only want to interact with others of their persuasion. Whilst I agree that like tends to wish to congregate with like, where software is concerned there has GOT to be a certain degree of interaction with your intended user-base, 'cos how can you otherwise know if users are happy with it?

This is one of the great things about the Puppy community. No-one tries to place themselves on a pedestal above anyone else...

(I get very embarrassed if & when anyone starts referring to me as any kind of an 'expert' at ANYTHING Puppy-related. I'm a bodger, first & foremost. I'm good at coming up with off-the-wall solutions to things that are good enough for me, but I'd be embarrassed to submit them for public inspection/criticism because I know they're 'hacks'.....often of the roughest possible kind!)


Mike.

[tosim]

Rockedge: "Also there is now a integrated PAYPAL donation system added to the forum. It is not yet configured or active."-Please don't wait too long to get it up and running. I am reasonably sure there are quite a few of us "ready and willing".

[sc0ttman]

Without seeming "nasty" about it, guys, it seems to me that most rank-and-file members have already had enough of the interminable debate about layout, and are more-or-less content with the way it now is.

And what about new users? ...people yet to find the forum? Yet to try Puppy? ..people who weren't regular on the old forums?

I did a test... Gave my bro the URL to this forum.. A long time FreeBSD user. I asked him to do the following:

1. Find the latest official release
2. Find the official build tools
3. Find the user contributed software for any specific puppy version
4. What packages are available in the base system ("built-in packages")

He failed on all four... Described the forum as "an absolute mess".

From my viewpoint, the few individuals who ARE still "finding fault" with it are primarily developers, who appear to want the entire thing re-ordered to suit them

No one is taking anything away from you self proclaimed "non devs"... We all would still have almost all the existing sections, some new ones, still be able share PETs etc, still chat away, all sections represented equally on the home page...

Deliberately chosen that way so users can see the subforums of every section at a glance - easy to navigate, and you can see the (subforum) activity of every section

You seem to want devs to have no space on the forum, or have all their work and tooling scattered around and hidden away - even for the official puppy build tools! ...and for new users to have to search around for themselves all over the place...

And, to be clear, I did not propose the forum design I would choose - merely one that has (to me, at least) obvious benefits over what we have now.

and in such a way as to give their "side of things" greater prominence.

How would these changes (or something like them) take anything away from you guys? ....

It's just clearer organisation, plain & simple

It would better for new users and those not already "rank-and-file members", who are the only ones you guys ever seem to care about..

Unfortunately, even in the open-source world this seems to be a continuing trend; it seems that almost everything these days is done in such a way as to make the lives of devs as easy as possible; the poor old end-user increasingly comes a very distant second in the equation

How do any of my proposals do this, at all? ....

Hell, why don't we set up a special, separate forum JUST for Puppy developers?

Errr... the real dev activity goes on at Github already.. The "Official Puppy Development" section would be merely a place to talk about it, make feature requests, bug reports, news announcements, chat about Woof-CE etc, etc.

Has it ever occurred to some of you guys/gals that if there was nobody to use the end-product of your labours, there would be very little point in you bothering to CREATE what you do in the first place..?

Has it ever occurred to you guys/gals that if 01micko and only 2 or 3 more devs leave Puppy land, for better documented pastures, as so many have already done, you will have no Puppy Linux ever again?!? ...Recruiting NEW developers, packagers, and end-users, is vital... This is what none of you seem to understand.

Whilst I concede that there are, perhaps, still a few changes that COULD be made to improve things, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there has to be a 'happy medium' that will satisfy most folks. It's long been said that the art of compromise is that of finding the narrow path which, while not "satisfying" absolutely everybody, does have the merit of being something which everybody can at least LIVE with.....

The only "compromise" I'm hearing is "no change!", "no change!", "no change!"....

(Having said which, I further concede that while it probably doesn't occur to most members, our Puppy developers are at least as important in the grand scheme of things as the common or garden 'users' who utilise their creations on a daily basis.....)

The vast majority of Puppy "developers" (there's no such official/meaningful distinction) are also puppy end users.. They just use it for different things than others... People here are forgetting that...

[mikewalsh]

No. I wouldn't say I'm against change at all. Change for the better is always a good thing. Change is also about the only thing that is constant; nothing remains static for ever, and things that do tend to fossilize and eventually die. What I don't see the point in is continuous "change for the sake of change"...

I agree with you 100%, in fact. Every aspect of the community should indeed have equal representation; that's only fair. Also, you mustn't ever take my posts to heart. No insult is ever intended, despite how it may come across. If it seemed that way to you, I apologize.

I also agree that I've somewhat forgotten how alien I found the OLD forum when I first joined. It took me several months before I began to figure out where things were. I would estimate that we probably HAVE lost a lot of 'potential' new members, due to many people becoming frustrated, and "moving on" straight away because they CANNOT quickly & easily find what they want.....

I guess forum design is in itself an art. In the 27/28 years since I first went online I've lost track of the number of bulletin boards/fora that I've belonged to. One thing that's always struck me , now I think about it, is how few of them truly were easy to navigate around. Very few, indeed, were tightly organized, clearly laid out or had everything just where you would expect to find it.

Your points about the 'test questions' you set your brother are also very valid. Those of us used to the old forum kinda got used to the whole somewhat "eccentric" way everything worked.....or didn't (as the case might be!) But putting myself in the shoes of a total raw noob, a complete stranger to the community - one who doesn't know the first thing about any of it - is actually quite an eye-opener. And in a way, we're compounding our own organisational problems due to the sheer number of 'spins'/Puplets/side-projects that Puppy's spawned over the years. No bad thing in itself, but ensuring equal representation for all of those generates its own headaches.

Answer me one thing (if you would)? Mention of 'devs' and 'non-devs' begs the question; what IS a 'dev', exactly, and how do you differentiate betwixt the two? Where do you define the 'boundary', if you like? I would never define myself as a developer, certainly; I'm primarily a packager, although I have during the last few years scripted a few original pieces of simple code in the course of my tenure here. But to me that wouldn't by itself qualify me, because those scripts were 'required' by the utility packages I was creating.....even though they were totally original.

To me, that still counts as merely "packaging". I don't see there's anything there worth my taking any credit for.....even the 'original bits' I created. A community shares & shares alike; everything created for the benefit of all.

Perhaps I'm an oddball, in not wishing to take credit for original work..?? Altruistic? Dunno. Stupid? More than likely..!

(*shrug*)


Mike.

[sc0ttman]

No insult is ever intended, despite how it may come across. If it seemed that way to you, I apologize.

Not insulted at all.. It's only by actually talking about these things that we'll improve at all..

It took me several months before I began to figure out where things were.

Me too - which is insane..

And it's no better these days.. Someone honestly tell me that the following info is clearly labelled & easy to find:

1. where to look for our docs (install guides, user manuals, developer docs)
2. which are official (supported) versions?
3. what were their release dates?
4. which is 32-bit, 64-bit, ARM?
5. when is the next one coming? (even a ballpark figure?)
6. How to I contribute to the next one? Which one is it?? Where in the forum?

We don't even list release dates, supported architectures... Of course this drives people away immediately, cos they don't know where to start!! ...how do they even know which one to download?

we're compounding our own organisational problems due to the sheer number of 'spins'/Puplets/side-projects that Puppy's spawned over the years.

Yep .. The solution is not to stop making things, but to clearly and sensibly label and group them.

Answer me one thing (if you would)? Mention of 'devs' and 'non-devs' begs the question; what IS a 'dev', exactly, and how do you differentiate betwixt the two? Where do you define the 'boundary', if you like?

Who cares what my definition is? ....a standard dictionary one.. And it's irrelevant..

If we *must* choose, then to me its whoever is busiest people on github actually keeping Puppy alive, making sure its tool and programs still work and it still builds - those are the "devs"... Most of them are also "end-users"...

But whether or not you call yourself a "dev" or not .... surely it's better to organize your work, project etc in an accessible way, which encourages, not discourages, others to join in.

[wiak]

Answer me one thing (if you would)? Mention of 'devs' and 'non-devs' begs the question; what IS a 'dev', exactly, and how do you differentiate betwixt the two? Where do you define the 'boundary', if you like? I would never define myself as a developer, certainly; I'm primarily a packager, although I have during the last few years scripted a few original pieces of simple code in the course of my tenure here.

I don't myself think such labels as developer or non-developer have any purpose. Individuals, through works they produce no doubt get recognised for their technical abilities and contributions, but I've always been dubious about the lists of 'recognised' developers that have occasionally been posted.

Original post too big and even I couldn't be bothered reading it, so whoosh, it is almost Halloween and post has gone...

[01101001b]

And what about new users? ...people yet to find the forum? Yet to try Puppy? ..people who weren't regular on the old forums?

If they don't read posts, and don't use the search tool, they post a question that somebody will reply, as usual. It's not the end of the world.

I did a test... Gave my bro the URL to this forum.. A long time FreeBSD user. I asked him to do the following:

1. Find the latest official release
2. Find the official build tools
3. Find the user contributed software for any specific puppy version
4. What packages are available in the base system ("built-in packages")

He failed on all four... Described the forum as "an absolute mess".

That's because you misguided him. You set him in a false quest. I really expected better from you Sc0ttman.

From my viewpoint, the few individuals who ARE still "finding fault" with it are primarily developers, who appear to want the entire thing re-ordered to suit them

You seem to want devs to have no space on the forum, or have all their work and tooling scattered around and hidden away - even for the official puppy build tools! ...and for new users to have to search around for themselves all over the place...

That's a full load of cr@p. What the h3ll is wrong with you?? You KNOW this forum is just the continuation of the former and you KNOW also WHY.

And, to be clear, I did not propose the forum design I would choose - merely one that has (to me, at least) obvious benefits over what we have now.
[...]
It would better for new users and those not already "rank-and-file members", who are the only ones you guys ever seem to care about..

I'm so fed up with "superheroes" wannabes pretending to take a stand allegedly for the sake of the "new users", "wind*ws users" and the like...

Has it ever occurred to some of you guys/gals that if there was nobody to use the end-product of your labours, there would be very little point in you bothering to CREATE what you do in the first place..?

Has it ever occurred to you guys/gals that if 01micko and only 2 or 3 more devs leave Puppy land, for better documented pastures, as so many have already done, you will have no Puppy Linux ever again?!?

That's simply not true. The work of 01micko, mistfire, josejp2424, radky, peebee and others is greatly appreciated. And even if they decide to set aside to pursue new horizons, Puppy will still continue, one way or another (or not. It's the cycle of things.)

...Recruiting NEW developers, packagers, and end-users, is vital... This is what none of you seem to understand.

What you and others don't understand is that Puppy was never meant to be massively used or popular. And this talking of yours about "recruiting"...

It's long been said that the art of compromise is that of finding the narrow path which, while not "satisfying" absolutely everybody, does have the merit of being something which everybody can at least LIVE with.....

The only "compromise" I'm hearing is "no change!", "no change!", "no change!"....

... Why all this nagging of yours? You seem full of butthurt because your "proposals" for the forum were not ipso facto regarded as "superior wisdom". Or is it because you found yourself not regarded as one of those "rank-and-file members"?

"Recruiting" you said. "It's just clearer organisation, plain & simple" you said. It seems as if you wish to model the community after an army and proclaim yourself as their general.

Anyhow, IF your concern for the new users is genuine, it would be great if you also find the time to answer their questions now and then, because I don't remember seeing you doing it... my bad, I guess.

Just my two cents.

[rockedge]

It seems as if you wish to model the community after an army and proclaim yourself as their general.

To clarify something around here...who's in charge here?.....I prefer "Field Marshall".

Organization? You will get what I decide. Bottom line....ah ah ah...that's "Field Marshall Rockedge" as you mutter under your breath.

[sc0ttman]

I did a test... Gave my bro the URL to this forum.. A long time FreeBSD user. I asked him to do the following:

1. Find the latest official release
2. Find the official build tools
3. Find the user contributed software for any specific puppy version
4. What packages are available in the base system ("built-in packages")

He failed on all four... Described the forum as "an absolute mess".

That's because you misguided him. You set him in a false quest

How on earth is it a "false quest"? .. I asked someone to go to forum find some important stuff, in a quick an efficient way...
They couldn't. Simple. Why? Cos they didn't spend half their life on the OLD forum, getting used to its terrible organisation.

In fact, I even did a jargon/glossary for him before hand.. So he knew that our "base packages" are called "builtins" etc... Even with this help/guidance he failed. I genuinely wanted to see how he'd do..

He's actually my twin brother - a clone of me, but a BSD user that didn't use the old forums. It's a perfect test.

You KNOW this forum is just the continuation of the former and you KNOW also WHY.

Should we not improve Puppy at all then? Or its websites? Shall we never try to improve anything, or talk about what it might look like?

I'm so fed up with "superheroes" wannabes pretending to take a stand allegedly for the sake of the "new users", "wind*ws users" and the like...

This is all just insults and whining. You are offering nothing of any worth at all.
Of course I care about new users.. Puppy Arcade brought in more new users than most Puplets combined..

Puppy will still continue, one way or another (or not. It's the cycle of things.)

..or not.. exactly...

...Recruiting NEW developers, packagers, and end-users, is vital... This is what none of you seem to understand.

What you and others don't understand is that Puppy was never meant to be massively used or popular. And this talking of yours about "recruiting"...

OK, so lets try to make it less popular, harder to use, harder to find. Just to keep you happy.

If you don't like the word "recruiting", how about "welcoming" or "encouraging" ?

Should we welcome new users with good docs, clear forum, easy to get started?

Should we encourage people to submit fixes, patches, updates to the puppy codebase?

Or should we seem hostile and bitter that someone might even try? (Like you are)

... Why all this nagging of yours? You seem full of butthurt because your "proposals" for the forum were not ipso facto regarded as "superior wisdom". Or is it because you found yourself not regarded as one of those "rank-and-file members"?

This is so stupid. Read the section of this forum we are in. I am on topic.

You lot have no idea.. If i were being a dictator, you wouldn't EVER see me on the forums, I would only be on Github, changing stuff there without ever talking to the "community"... And most of you on the forums would only find out about it months after, when you downloaded a new puppy..

I'm one of the ONLY people here who bother to run ideas past people before trying to get them rolling on github... Others run off to github and "just do it" ... But I only ever get grief for it..

And AGAIN, I did not prose a structure that I would choose myself, but one that should work better for SEO, basic semantic organistion, (which BTW the Japanese Puppy Forum has done), and clearer separation between forum sections for the build tools, official releases, additional software.. just to make it easier for everyone..

And just to be clear - I don't care if you guys think I'm the least important person in "puppy world" ... Not my issue.. I'm thinking about other users ... You lot just think about yourselves.

Anyhow, IF your concern for the new users is genuine

It is... Prove otherwise mr genius.

If I didn't care about other users, why make a package manager (a lot of work) that can do the following:

- lets users create their own packages easier
- lets users create, and share, their own repos (for first time)
- lets users install third-party repos way easier than before - including PPA repos
- lets people use "wrappers" for Pkg, so they can use the `yum` or `apt` commands they're used to (i don't use them)
- offers about 5 different UI/GUI frontends, if you inc the fzf-based `pkgmenu`... (u think i use them all?)
- is still 100% compatible with the existing PPM that everyone knows and uses (i dont use PPM)

But even so, as Hitchens once said, "what can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed, without evidence".

(Unlike many of you, I use Puppy 24/7 - only ONE version installed at any time... No distro hopping, no using many pups, cos thingX works there, another pup cos thingY works there... just to avoid fixing things..

I want others to be able to do as many things in shitty old laptops and PCs as I can, thanks to Puppy. Out of the box.

it would be great if you also find the time to answer their questions now and then, because I don't remember seeing you doing it... my bad, I guess.

Now you're just being plain rude and stupid.

I've shared posts on how to build packages, host your own repo, better documentation using new man page readers.. I built the damn software that lets you do it. Don't say I don't offer anything - without Pkg Puppy would already be looking way more dated and irrelevant.

Go read up on GitHub how keen the devs are to get rid of PPM completely, and finally move over to Pkg... If you think these proposed forum section changes are a big deal, wait till PPM is replaced with Pkg...

No one devving woof-ce on github is gonna "check in" with you "forum-only" guys before they do it, FYI.
...And there's no (even slightly prominent) space on the forum to discuss it before they do, either....

Or maybe people should just do more woof-ce github changes, without appearing on forums? ....You would get the changes whether you like it or not...

Starting to get me yet??!

Just my two cents.

Should've kept in it in your pocket.

[sc0ttman]

Let's look at it like this:

1a. How many Raspberry Pi users run it as a little retro gaming console? in the hundreds of thousands.

1b. How many of them know that they _could_ run Puppy on it, running the exact same packages and emulators, and versions, but that Puppy would run much faster? ...probably about 4 people.

2a. How many Raspberry Pi users run it for Kodi? in the hundreds of thousands.

2b. How many of them know that they _could_ run Puppy instead, using the exact same packages and Kodi version, but that Puppy would run much faster? ...again, probably about 4 people.

3. How many of these Raspian (etc) users realise they can use Pkg + its apt-wrapper to install and setup their stuff with (mostly) the same commands they're used to already? No one.

Why?

...Cos we all do such a terrible job organizing Puppy forum, documentation, etc and making it easy for people to find these things out for themselves

You all seem proud of this.

Yet, each one of these potential "users" is also a potential "contributor" - a "developer", "tester", etc, etc ...

How many of those hundreds of thousands might be able to help 01micko make puppy on ARM even better?

The least the rest of us can do is help encourage others to get stuck in, and help to make it easy for new Puppy fans to join us.

[01101001b]

To clarify something around here...who's in charge here?.....I prefer "Field Marshall". [...] ah ah ah...that's "Field Marshall Rockedge" as you mutter under your breath.

Riiiiight... in other words you are the top dog in a puppies' kennel...
Impressive. Yeeeaahhh!

[01101001b]

[...]
(blab blab blab)
[...]

Just my two cents.

Should've kept in it in your pocket.

fbyes.jpeg (30.1 KiB) Viewed 356 times

[rockedge]

Riiiiight... in other words you are the top dog in a puppies' kennel...
Impressive. Yeeeaahhh!

Nah, just the guy on the controls at the moment.