Grub getting in the way on start-up (Solved)

[TC-21-32]

OR Troubles when it's time to upgrade to another puppy. I realized that when the SSL changes on the 'net, I've needed to update my puppy.
Not smart enough to deal with the SSL changes, I've blamed it on the browser.
I had to make a hardware change lately, a different desktop machine. Got that sorted using Xenial 7.5. Always a flakey workhorse, always restarts/runs without issue for me.
But behind the times, SSL wise now.

Starting S15Pup64 22-12+3 and Fossapup 64 9.5 on the new machine, they both hang up at the Grub message in the pic.
Never saw the Grub message before.
Note: Same old hard drives, wifi card and flash drives from the old HP machine.
Old machine: Compaq Presario SR5612F.
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400 Dual-Core processor
3GB Ram
Hard drive 320GB (original) and Home/save hard drive 28GB (extra)
Nvidia GeForce 6150 SE graphics

New machine: The Cooler Master Elite (old win 7 machine) now running doesn't have a handy face-plate loaded with info about the machine.
What I have thus far: Please forgive I have no more.
4x AMD Phenom II x4 840 processor
2 Gig RAM
Mother ASUS M4
Browsers: Seamonkey 2.49.1 and Palemoon 27.6.1
Your thoughts?

[bigpup]

Starting S15Pup64 22-12+3 and Fossapup 64 9.5 on the new machine

How exactly are you doing the installs?
Details?
Did this, using this installer program, or what?

I assume you have the computers bios - Boot setup, set to access the drive the installs are on, as the first boot device?

That seems to be an error message by the computers bios.
It is setup to boot from a specific drive, but it is not the drive that has the boot loader on it.

Or when you did the installs.
No boot loader was installed to boot them.

[d-pupp]

It looks to me like the boot loader can't find menu.1st
It must be in the / directory and be configured properly.
It should have an entry something like this...

Code: Select all

title Puppy fossapup64 9.5 (sda1/SB)
  find --set-root uuid () b226b3de-6248-4c96-9404-ae8b77953d40
  kernel /SB/vmlinuz  pdrv=b226b3de-6248-4c96-9404-ae8b77953d40  psubdir=/SB pmedia=atahd pfix=fsck
  initrd /SB/initrd.gz

[TC-21-32]

Once again, I left out an important detail. I never learned how to install Puppy.
Xenial, S15 and Fossa are on CD's. There may be a save file for S15 but Fossa was just burned and wanted to try it.
Sorry for the mix-up and I'll read the response again. Thank much.

[d-pupp]

There are lots of how to's in the 'Getting Started and System Requirements' part of the forum.
Puppy does a frugal install and not a regular full install. This setup has many advantages, easy upgrades or downgrades, easy recoveries. Just replace you save file with a backup or delete it and start over. (Not while using it...that would be bad. From another puppy is best)

A frugal install is simply installing a boot loader (grub) and coping the files inside the iso file to a folder on the hard drive.
Use the how to's they are very good.
Warning "Do not format your hard drive if you have something on there you want to keep!!" Like Windows

[TC-21-32]

The pic I showed is the screen just after the POST process.
Thank you. I'll do some digging.
On the other hand, grub and I have fought before, sometime in the 4. series Puppys and we don't like each other. I vowed to never again...
CD's and save files only. Sorry, I'm not clear enough.

[bigpup]

Again, that image looks like what the computer bios would give as an error, if it could not find a boot loader on the drive it is trying to boot from.

OR

The boot loader it is trying to use has a bad config file entry.

If the Puppy versions are installs on a CD.

When you did burn the Puppy version ISO to the CD,

In the burning program, did you select burn iso image, image burn, or similar choice?

When completed and you look at what is on the CD.

Should see a bunch of different files.

Do you see a bunch of files on the CD?

If yes.

Do you have the computer set to boot from the CD drive?

Try only using Fossapup64 9.5 to try and figure this out.

It should have no problem booting from a CD install.

[TC-21-32]

I'll get right on answering those questions. Thank you!

Burning: I right click and choose "burn with pBurn". I close the disc, look where the temp file is, check that the burner is SRO, leave the speeds auto and never do anything with the advanced tab.
Files on the disc after the burn? Oh yes. Four .sfs files for Fossa, boot and windows installer folders, initrd.gz, vmlinuz, isolinux.bin, grub.config and the readme.txt.
Boot from cd drive? Yes. I'll recheck that.

OK, just burned a fresh fossa. EDIT: I ran an md5 on the cd twice and got the same md5. d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
Sadly didn't get an MD5 or hash file to check the original file or the cd after burning. That was my mistake. EDIT! I do have an md5 file and it does not match.
I'll restart with the fresh burn, and recheck that it boots from the cd drive. Back soon.

EDIT: OK, bios shows correct boot order. Push DELETE to get there on this ASUS.
F8 is the simpler boot order window. Arrow down to select the cd drive (the only optical on this machine so far), select ENTER to choose boot device and it reboots.
That window never changes. cd drive on the bottom.

I am getting the grub 4 dos interference AFTER the cd drive realizes it's from Peter Anvin et al. So perhaps the first thing it sees is the grub file?
If it helps, a pic of my arch enemy's window.

[bigpup]

If that image is what you see when booting the Fossapup64 9.5 CD install.

There is nothing there that is what you should be seeing.

When you select to boot from the CD.

It should first boot to a menu that gives you selections on the type of boot you want to do.

The first entry is normal boot.

Do you see this menu?

Do not have any other drives plugged into the computer when you try to boot from the CD. No USB drives.

What exactly happens when you try to boot from the CD.

You do this?

You see this?

Normally the cd is first accessed and the isolinux.bin is activated.
It uses the isolinux.cfg file to tell it what to do.
It turns over control to grub4dos menu.lst to provide a boot menu to select from.

What is the computer make and model?
Specs?

Do you know if it is a UEFI or legacy bios computer?

[TC-21-32]

Today's homework.
Do you see this menu? No. I don't see the normal boot menu for Fossa.

I removed 3 flash drives for start testing.

What exactly happens when you try to boot from the CD. Push the start button, beep, ASUS screen flashes twice, I see the isolinux...Peter Anvin et al and then grub starts.
(If I'm real quick, I can stop and see the menu shown in the last pic above.)
Then I see the first pic above where it hangs up. All in a space of ten seconds.

I can hear the cd being looked at (zhoop, zhoop), the drive light stays on with no spin-up/vroom from the cd drive.

Computer make and model:
Cooler Master Elite
ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 motherboard
4x AMD Phenom II x4 840 processor
2 gig ram
Bios is American Megatrends 64k, version 1102, 12-09-2010
Nvidia GeForce video
Azalia audio

In my search for whether it's UEFI or legacy bios, I did not find any reference to UEFI

Not to confuse:
1. The old machine had a UEFI bios so Xenial 7.5 is UEFI as well.
2. Burning the fossa 64 9.5 iso shows a different md5sum when checking the new cd compared to the original downloaded iso file which is a clean file when hashed.
3. Burning the F96CE-4 iso shows the very same md5sum when checking the new cd as fossa 64 9.5. Once again, different from the original downloaded clean file.
4. Relevant? I did get old 525 to boot up, it found its save file and almost worked. Big monitor I use (HP 1600x900) and 525 wouldn't work together.

[williwaw]

asus screen flashes twice

any message there to select boot device? when you bring up the menu, is the cd drive listed?

too fast ? try to get into your bios and increase the timeout
if you can config the bios, check to see if the cd is the highest in the boot order

presuming the cd device is somewhwere in the boot order, unplug any hardrives to test the cd for bootability

[bigpup]

Can you boot the computer using any operating system installed on a CD?

I did get old 525 to boot up

,
That is from an install on a CD?

There is no reason why you would need to disconnect internal drives.

Do you know how to get into the bios setup where you can change settings?

If no, We can tell you how to do it.

If yes.

In the bios setup navigate to the boot section.

In boot settings configurations.
Disable quick boot.
This will make it boot slower, but that time will make sure the CD is fully accessed.
.

Screenshot(1).jpg (15.55 KiB) Viewed 1458 times

.
Any help?
.
.
note:
Looking at the motherboard manual.
It seems to have the legacy bios.
So Grub4dos menu.lst should be the config file that should be used to provide a boot menu.

[TC-21-32]

I know that the quick boot is enabled, I've read it a bunch of times. Getting into the bios is no problem. I'll disable it and see.

Interesting on the timeout.
Thank you for looking at an ASUS manual. Online?

I'm typing on the computer I'm working on. Xenial 7.5 and yes on a cd.

Been running this way since 2008 or so. Long-term, this works very well. A hiccup once in awhile.

EDIT: I disabled quick boot. I now see the post messages. No help. grub stops it just like in the first pic.

[williwaw]

xenial cd boots, but fossa cd does not......

can anyone comment on the --ignore-cd in the error?

maybe ask in the fossa forum and the S15 forum to see if anyone has had problems booting from cd

does the fossa cd and the S15 cd both show the same --ignore-cd error?

[TC-21-32]

Willi, as in the grub menu in the second pic? Well, I thought it was a menu.
Yes fossa, fc96, S15 and bionic all show the same menu if I can catch it. It's shown for a mere split second within the 10 second start process.

I thought I'd test my burner to see if it's that by chance.
Will Pburn give an accurate md5 after verifying?
Three different burns all show the same md5 after verifying the burn within pburn.

I downloaded a fresh xenial 7.5 uefi 64 and burned it. It readily starts but doesn't know how to look for save files.

Xenial7.5 is my everyday os.

[williwaw]

Willi, as in the grub menu in the second pic? Well, I thought it was a menu.
Yes fossa, fc96, S15 and bionic all show the same menu if I can catch it. It's shown for a mere split second within the 10 second start process.

I thought I'd test my burner to see if it's that by chance.
Will Pburn give an accurate md5 after verifying?
Three different burns all show the same md5 after verifying the burn within pburn.

I downloaded a fresh xenial 7.5 uefi 64 and burned it. It readily starts but doesn't know how to look for save files.

Xenial7.5 is my everyday os.

the "grub" menu with the errors looks to be reading something from grub4dos, and it may be interfering with booting from a cd
do you see the --ignore-cd error with each different OS failed cd boot?

grub4dos is usually installed to boot a frugal puppy, and it may exist on a disk on your machine. can you unplug all disks, usb, sata and cardreaders etc and try booting your non working cd's with only the optical drive?

have you found a bios boot device menu yet?

[TC-21-32]

"the "grub" menu with the errors looks to be reading something from grub4dos, and it may be interfering with booting from a cd
do you see the --ignore-cd error with each different OS failed cd boot?"
Willi, I'll go back downstairs with some different non-booting OS's and see if the menu is the same.

"grub4dos is usually installed to boot a frugal puppy, and it may exist on a disk on your machine. can you unplug all disks, usb, sata and cardreaders etc and try booting your non working cd's with only the optical drive?
Grub used with a frugal install is right. I tried it once back in the 4. series Puppys and vowed to never again. This machine is newer.
I was thinking that's a tall order BUT I see where you're going. Eliminate ALL possible interference with this particular machine.
On my next shut-down later tonight or tomorrow I'll try that. I was thinking about installing my old burner/optical drive for testing so your suggestion actually fits.

"have you found a bios boot device menu yet?"
Hehehe, oh yes, I sure have. This ASUS mother board uses the Delete button to stop the start process and do down into the bios. The optical drive is first on the list.
The bios has been a staple for many years using Puppy Linux. Us CD and save file users learn real quick to use the bios to our advantage for start-ups.

[williwaw]

This machine is newer.
Note: Same old hard drives, wifi card and flash drives from the old HP machine.
but if you moved the drives from the old to the new?

"have you found a bios boot device menu yet?"
Hehehe, oh yes, I sure have. This ASUS mother board uses the Delete button to stop the start process and do down into the bios. The optical drive is first on the list.

there is the bios set up menu that allows you to tweak boot orders and many other bios settings, including reset to default if needed. when you have a list in the boot order, the bios searches down thru the list for a bootable device in the order you configure.

there is also possibly a simple bios boot device selector menu. you make a choice and it boots what you choose on each boot up, maybe an f8 or the escape key

you may need to hold down the key while pressing the power on button (and keep holding down until the menu appears)

[TC-21-32]

Now that's an eye opener of a thought.
The simpler F8 boot device selector. Yes, it's there. F8.
Each time I've tried that, selecting the optical drive that's always on the bottom of four choices and not changeable, as soon as I touch enter, it reboots which sounds normal.
OH! Hold the enter button down instead of touch. Haven't tried that. Yet. Do I have that correct?

My list of trials grows longer. That's OK.
They say the devil's in the details and this ASUS board is being a devil needing details.

Typed from the old 1-'19 Xenial disc OS.

[williwaw]

Yes, it's there. F8.
Each time I've tried that, selecting the optical drive that's always on the bottom of four choices and not changeable, as soon as I touch enter, it reboots which sounds normal.

I would expect normal is to procede to boot into the cd in the optical drive.
did you try each of the different cds when using the F8 boot device menu?

If you got the boot device menu with F8, no need to hold any key down longer. sometimes using keys during boot, they need to be pressed before anything becomes visible on the screen.

does your bios setup > boot order function allow you to put the cd on top?
can you remove unwanted entries?

could it be worthwhile to reset your bios to default before configuring anything in bios set up, if there is a chance you got the board from anything but factory new packaging?

take the coin battery out of the board and put in a fresh one if there is a chance the existing battery is not up to voltage

please report on what you have tried that has worked or made a difference!
not just the failures

old burner optical drive work any better?

[TC-21-32]

*Success! I could type for an hour about what I tried but the end result was setting the bios to default!
Then of course go back in the bios settings and reset the boot order.

I'll likely re-enable quick boot and change hard drive priority but that's not written in stone quite yet.

Still training Fossa to save itself and may try another drive for save.

There are just a couple things I'd like to try before giving this the [solved] title. Do I do that or admin?
I'd like to try the other distros mentioned here to be certain this works for all of my latest burns.

I do still see the grub line shown in post one but only for a second now.

Thank you folks so much for the help and ideas! It had been several years since my last machine upgrade so I was more than rusty.

Awww, I get widgets again by default. Nice!

[bigpup]

I'll likely re-enable quick boot

I suggest you do not do this.
Let the computer motherboard do a complete system check during boot.

With a motherboard the age of yours.
Doing a complete check at boot up is good to do.

It does give a little more time for everything to fully get powered up, before asking stuff to get done.

For years, Puppy Linux has always booted better, if quick boot, fast boot, whatever it is called, is disabled.

Some is because of how fast Puppy Linux does boot up.

[bigpup]

To mark topic solved.

You have control of the first post in the topic.

you started the topic with that first post.

You can edit it.

The subject is the title of the topic.

Just edit the subject of the first post and add solved to it.

[bigpup]

Xenialpup and Fossapup64 have some updates you need to add to them.

Use the program Quicpet (icon on desktop)

Quickpet -> Info -> (fossapup or xenialpup) updates

Run it 2 times for Xenialpup. It had several updates, may not get them all, with one run.

Reboot, making sure to update the save, so changes are now used.

[bigpup]

Yes, I found the motherboard manual on the internet.

Usually you can do a search by the name of the motherboard followed with manual.

Example:
ASUS M4A87TD manual
https://www.asus.com/me-en/supportonly/ ... sk_manual/

[TC-21-32]

OK, quick boot is back to disabled. Didn't change the speed of start-up anyway.
Subject marked solved. I figured I could but asked.
I've been pretty good to update Xenial along the way. Updating now shows the same fixes/bugs.
Thank you for the link to this mother board!
All half-modern puppys I possess now boot just fine.
Thank you again!

Completely Off Topic: Mods, admin, bigpup delete if necessary.
Sweet old 4.21 refuses to boot. IRQ 17 is grumpy.
5.25/5.28. OK
Fossa 9.5 works just fine. SSL is newer. Main interest.
FC96 is a faster fossa version. EZ internet and looks for the Athos files for the PCI wifi card.
S15 OK unique.
Bionic OK unique.
Most are cows. Cow=memory hog.
Many more questions for upgrades but not for this thread. Mouse wheel not working on desktop on the modern choices etc.
Portable Seamonkey not starting in Xenial blah blah blah.

Once I get setup, I hope I don't have to bother familiar old "faces" for a few years.
D

[bigpup]

Welcome to Linux software.

Some compiled programs work on a lot of different Linux OS's.

Some really need to be specifically compiled, from program source code, for the specific Linux OS.

Some programs, require dependency stuff, that is just not in the specific Linux OS.

All of the above applies to different Puppy versions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

An old version of Puppy (4.21), expected to have the needed firmware and drivers, for much newer hardware, is not realistic.
How could it possibly have stuff for hardware, that was not available, when 4.21 was developed.

Supporting new or newer hardware, is the biggest thing driving the need to develop, newer versions of Puppy.

[mikewalsh]

@TC-21-32 :-

Just a couple of points, despite this is now marked 'Solved'.

CD burning:-

I notice you say you leave burn speeds on auto. This is actually one area where it's a good idea to set burn speeds as low as possible. Auto tends to default to between 24x and 48x.....which is way, WAY too fast for burning to be effective. That's fine for simply burning non-essential general data, but for critical, boot-time system stuff, you do NEED a good, slow "burn".

This really wants manually setting down to 4x or even 2x (in fact, the slower the better, TBH). Do it once, and do it properly the first time, and it lessens the chance that you'll need to do it all over again. This could have been at the root of many of your issues.

-----------------

SSL stuff:-

TBH, I don't understand this bit. Why do you need to upgrade Puppy just because internet SSL requirements get newer? Among many other 64-bitzers, I also run 32-bit Xenial 7.5. I'm running the current, up-to-date Firefox on here without any problems. In fact, I'm running the same, 'portable' Firefox on Tahrpup32 as well (the previous generation). So it CAN be done.....

Mike.

[TC-21-32]

Mike, THAT is more excellent info. I did not know that about burn speeds. Or I forgot long ago. I'm glad I wrote out it earlier.
I had to upgrade the OS so I could look into your portable browsers.
I may laugh but it taught me how to handle the tarballs and that's gold. I even managed it!

bigpup, you nailed it about trying ol' 4.21. Quite unrealistic is right but hey, I had to try it.

Willi, as progress was ongoing, you saw error in that second pic on page 1 but I saw menu. You were correct.
Just before resetting bios defaults, that list turned into about two lines instead of ten using F8 exclusively for starting four different puppys.
Thank you!

SSL stuff:- A good learning year for me. If I had known (read paid attention) just how easy it was to handle tarballs...
I'd still be using 525/8 or you guys know what \ /.
I couldn't get the portable 64 bit tar.gz from mega.nz to work so I tried 2.56.16 tar.bz from the Seamonkey project.
Less than five minutes later, here I am editing on a newer version that went looking for monkey files on its own. Boom done. And I can post on another site.