Debian Puppy 10

[retiredt00]

I'm following on and off Vanilla Dpup 10 development for some time and since there is no dedicated thread I thought to open one
Please do not move in the mainline distributions section because is really not there yet, and I think will be benefitted by some testing and user feedback.

First the relevant links
Go at the bottom (!) of this page for info https://vanilla-dpup.github.io/
Download of the latest development releases in this page https://github.com/vanilla-dpup/unstabl ... 86_64-10.0

The good news:
I find it the most mainstream puppy ever.
Boots everything without a lot of hassle,
Looks like is already configured properly (in the Xwayland version mainly),
Everything appears to work out of the box,
If english is not you language or you need to know what is going on, you are covered as language files and application documentation is included.
if you are missing or needing anything that exists in the "Debian world", official or unofficial, you can install it by one click, without needing a huge number of extra packages as it usually happens in more traditional puppies.

The bad news
Is a development release which means.
The installer does not work, you have to install manually and configure your bootloader yourself as it does not have one (runs fine from the iso though and recognises save files in the hd, if present)
Loading and unloading SFSs during a session is feasible but problematic (things may not work) as it is using overlayfs and not aufs. SFSs work fine if loaded at boot though.
If you use a savefile make it at least 1GB because just updating the Debian package databases will take ~350MB

The "ugly"
Looks like puppy3 or puppy4! A real throwback (for me). Several old puppy dialogues and script can be confusing as they are not updated for the new logic or functionality. In general, "polishing" is not its strong point.
Is big with puppy standards at 820+ MB (but the "retro" version). It does contain most of the devx, language support, documentation, and a lot of extra firmware to accommodate almost every machine out there, but if you are on a dial up or metered download, you may find it hefty.

Regarding the 4 available versions, I find the Xwayland the best.
If you plan to use it in a virtual machine instead of real hardware, I recommend the Xorg version as getting a desktop in Xwayland can be problematic. Xorg may also be handy if the Wayland project did not catch up with your display driver yet (I did not have such a case yet in 4 oldish machines)
If you were introduced to computers through a cellular phone and a tablet was you previous most advanced "computer", you may feel comfortable with the dwl version that has almost nothing to do with traditional desktop.
A "retro" version is added on Nov 13 at just under 500MB, using Xorg and and older kernel, without language support, documentation and development tools. Pretty good if you want to just add your preferred application through synaptic package manager. Be advice that you save file/folder may increase dramatically (took 1.2 GB for gimp, liber office, evince and grarted)

And 2 words of caution. Label the downloaded ISOs appropriately as all flavours have identical names and you can not know which is which before you use it. Do not dump you old downloads if you want to compare or go back because on the site you can find only the latest version. The older ones are deleted.

PS: I would be happy if dimkr, the developer of Vanilla Dpup, wants to take ownership of this thread.

(Edit: added identical iso naming warning
Edit2: added "retro" version information)

[dimkr]

The installer does not work

Help with that is welcome. The Puppy installers are broken and every time I try to fix them I find out that most Puppy users install Puppy manually by editing the grub.cfg of GRUB installed by some other distro, dual boot, use something like Ventoy and so on. The use cases are very different.

If anyone has a plan how to provide an installer that works for everyone in every possible use case, I'm all ears. (And contributions to https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE are welcome.)

Loading and unloading SFSs during a session is feasible

Currently, dynamic SFS loading with overlay is unsupported.

If you use a savefile make it at least 1GB because just updating the Debian package databases will take ~350MB

Try apt-get clean and apt-get autoclean? With PUPMODE 13 you can use a small save file, install your packages, clean up and save.

Several old puppy dialogues and script can be confusing as they are not updated for the new logic or functionality. In general, "polishing" is not its strong point.

Can you open issues in https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/issues, please? One issue for each problem, with enough details to make it fixable. Otherwise, it's just a general complaint and not something I can prioritize, schedule and fix. If you want to get these issues fixed, help me help you.

Is big with puppy standards at 820+ MB.

Users who want to reduce size can remove docx and nlsx if they don't want documentation (like man pages), CJK fonts and translations.

PS: I would be happy if dimkr, the developer of Vanilla Dpup, wants to take ownership of this thread.

It's too soon for that. I want to publish a "good enough" .0 release shortly after the Debian 12 release (even if that means not all issues are fixed), then fix issues in .1, .2, etc' releases

[bigpup]

The installer does not work

Help with that is welcome. The Puppy installers are broken and every time I try to fix them I find out that most Puppy users install Puppy manually by editing the grub.cfg of GRUB installed by some other distro, dual boot, use something like Ventoy and so on. The use cases are very different.

If anyone has a plan how to provide an installer that works for everyone in every possible use case, I'm all ears.

Frugalpup Installer
viewtopic.php?t=337
Info about it:
http://www.fishprogs.software/puppy/fru ... index.html

It provides 4 programs

The main Frugalpup that does frugal installs to any read/write type drive.
Also can install both type boot loaders UEFI or legacy bios.
For secure boot UEFI, can also install the Puppy security key, if UEFI secure boot is going to stay enabled.
This one has choices.
Basically, install Puppy from a ISO to a selected location.
Then install the boot loader, choosing the type to install: UEFI, legacy BIOS, or both.
UEFI boot loader, will also install what is needed to install the Puppy security key, if UEFI secure boot is kept enabled.

DiskPup that is more of a auto install process that does a frugal install.

Stickpup and f2stickpup are for usb live installs.

[Clarity]

One issue that I think is small (nothing in development is small, I know) is the test file ISO names that @dimkr produces for test. As was pointed out,

• There are 3 different versions for 64bit PCs.

• Each of the 64bit ISO files for each version has the same ISO filename of every other version

• The identical filename of each version ISO file today, for example is '
  vanilladpup-x86-10.0.81-xorg/vanilladpup-10.0.81-docx-nlsx.iso' for all 3 versions

I download them with an identifiable new-name as follows so I know which to test:

Vanilla DPup filenames.jpg (22.99 KiB) Viewed 2293 times

This is fine for boot-time ISO distinguishing. But, once ISO file is selected for boot, upon Menu identification and desktop, I then must appeal to logfiles to remember which of the Vanilla ISO files is running. (smile)

[Clarity]

@dimkr Is KVM acceptable for results in testing each build?

[retiredt00]

Frugalpup Installer
viewtopic.php?t=337
Info about it:
http://www.fishprogs.software/puppy/fru ... index.html

Dear bigpup the frugal installer is almost OK for vanilladpup10.
Is just failing to copy an important file (ucode.cpio) that results in failed boot since somehow this is the file defined in the grub.cfg

I think that gyro could easily fix that and hopefully integrate it properly woof-ce.
Or at least integrate the relevant parts as I thing that it has parts specific for the init script that gyro also develops as well as some duplications (grub2 files)

The pet, as the name suggests, is not designed for full installs unfortunately so it can not fully replace the puppyinstaller script, but it can certainly do flash and HD and even ISO.

But, once ISO file is selected for boot, upon Menu identification and desktop, I then must appeal to logfiles to remember which of the Vanilla ISO files is running.

Dear Clarity
dimkr unfortunately does that even with the different flavours of stable builds. Worse part is that all the savefiles/folder have the same name by default and this can generate even bigger problems if you do not careful specify which one to be used.
Hopefully, this will be fixed when they become officially official

[dimkr]

@dimkr Is KVM acceptable for results in testing each build?

The short answer is "no", but I don't know what you're testing.

I think that gyro could easily fix that and hopefully integrate it properly woof-ce.

I don't mind including a working installer in dpup, but it has to meet 4 conditions:
1. It must be integrated into woof-CE
2. It has a maintainer, someone who fixes issues and submits these fixes to woof-CE
3. It must be a replacement for the old and broken installers, both in terms of functionality and in terms of presentation (for example, a button in dotpup that points to this installer instead of the puppyinstaller and bootflash buttons)
4. It must be reproducible: I won't include an installer that contains old GRUB binaries of unknown origin (but I'm OK with using Debian's GRUB packages)

[Clarity]

... the savefiles/folder have the same name by default and ...

I understand and agree; So I had devised a method to insure specific identification for this SET of distros as well as for all other occurrences of Forum distros that have multiple versions for a given distro and for the remasters that are made for a given distro.

I merely add unique information at session save time; for example I have ...save-221011-v10.0.79_pristine4DWL where the "221011-v10.0.79_pristine4DWL" helps me to know which version-session this is from, for the given distro booting. Since there are several saves for any given PUP, including this Pup's SET, the boot process pauses requesting I tell it which prior sessions it found to use before proceeding to desktop.

It is my way of simply addressing this COMMON dilemma that exist for ALL PUP distros in the forum where there are several versions as well as add'l members offering remasters of any given version.

Hope this info is useful

[Clarity]

@dimkr i booted each of today's (Saturday) ISO files posted to demo what goes to desktop and what doesn't on a simple KVM VM. The reason is that if it boots and navigates the desktop in the VM, it is expected (by my experiences over the years) to also boot in bare-metal from a PUP's ISO file.

3 of your 4 PUPs booted without issue, navigates their desktop and launches desktop Menu apps (something the Wayland & DWL versions could not). The following boot commands for the VMs are

Code: Select all

qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2G -vga std -smp 2 -device AC97 -cdrom vanilladpup64-9.2.24.iso
qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2G -vga std -smp 2 -device AC97 -cdrom vanilladpup64-10.0.84-xorg.iso
qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2G -vga std -smp 2 -device AC97 -cdrom vanilladpup64-10.0.84-wayland.iso
qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2G -vga std -smp 2 -device AC97 -cdrom vanilladpup64-10.0.84-dwl.iso

DWL stops before desktop and I did not have any luck in getting it to proceed to desktop from the console it landed at.

Vanilla DPup filenames.gif (46.37 KiB) Viewed 2120 times

The other 3 performed as expected of any WoofCE PUP where each proceeds to desktop without issue.

Of those that go to desktop, performance is stellar within each VM.

Do you have a preferred qemu command for your test?

P.S. I know the above commands did not allow for a device for session saves. But these tests were to see if v10s are now allowing desktop navigations as the v9.xx releases allow. AS you may know, the prior wayland and DWL version did not. Now, at least, the wayland version has matured to a point where it is allowing navigations and launches of apps on its desktop.

Hope this info is helpful knowledge

[retiredt00]

Dear Clarity,
thank you for the info. I have revised similar approaches for my save files, though I would prefer not to.

Dear dimkr,
You conditions about the installer are very understandable and gyro or others will come up to the rescue.
Hopefully puppy will not be the first distribution without an installer and a boot loader

Thanks you for the new lite "retro" version.
Though kernel 5.10 is long term supported (till 2026) and hardly qualifies as retro.
Another name might be better to indicate what it is, a basic system for the user to customise as needed. Maybe "baseX" or something.

(see first post for a bit more about the new "retro" version)

[retiredt00]

Dear dimkr,
I tried to compile an out of tree module in 10.0.89-retro and after it downloaded the required 41MB dkms related packages failed because did not have matching kernel headers.
When I installed the 5.10.149 kernel source SFS, module compilation proceeded but failed missing "linux_osl.o"
I was wondering if it is just a driver source incompatibility between the debian 6.0.5 kernel and the retro 5.10.149 or if there is something that could be done with the 5.10.149 kernel source SFS to fix this.
If not, would it be OK to just replace vmlinuz and zdrv from the big versions or there is something more that should be looked at?
Thanks

[dimkr]

There's not much you can do, Debian 12 is supposed to use the Debian 12 kernel and not the Debian 11 kernel. The various DKMS driver packages are tested for build failures only against the Debian 12 kernel.

Maybe try to make under /lib/modules/`uname -r`/build.

[retiredt00]

There's not much you can do, Debian 12 is supposed to use the Debian 12 kernel and not the Debian 11 kernel. The various DKMS driver packages are tested for build failures only against the Debian 12 kernel.

I see.
So 6.0.7 is not a Debian 12 compatible kernel?
Because the broadcom driver compilation also fails in a fresh full size 10.0.90
Was OK with the 6.0.5 kernel.
You may want to consider a kernel that will not negate one of the important new features of dpup.

[dimkr]

Debian testing now has 6.0.x. dpup tracks the Debian kernel on a bi-weekly schedule and it changes frequently, so don't be surprised if some DKMS package is broken. Also, some DKMS packages are broken or fail at runtime even if the kernel is perfectly in sync with testing.

[Clarity]

Hello @dimkr Tried your daily ISO files, booting v10....90 (all 5 64bit ersions) today, on bare-metal PC used for PUP testings. None of them exhibited stable desktop behavior with jerky mouse and crashes to console.

Something unusual is happening with these that is NOT happening with the PUPs & DOGs of the forum. Specifically, all of my current WoofCE PUP ISO files are booting to deskop on bare-metal. But this complete version-set has some ingrediant in it that is different enough that it is struggling to run stable.

Wish I could help, but I am at a loss for what information would be useful to you. Have looked in DMESG and in /initrd/tmp/bootinit.log but nothing turns up unusual. And there are no boot messages that are erroneous or unusual.

Not sure what could be the answer.

The issue does not arise with Wayland Ubuntus nor Fedora's booting from their ISO files.

Will try booting ISO files on a differenct PC to se if the same issues is continuing, there. (although several weeks ago, I think I did test on a different PC with same desktop behavior results)
FYI????

[retiredt00]

Dear dimkr, I noticed that the Xwayland version is not available for vanilladpup-x86_64-10.0.102 or 101.
Is that a temporary failure of the building process or you are considering dropping it?
The latter would be unfortunate for me as I really find it indeed the best of both worlds

[dimkr]

Is that a temporary failure of the building process

Yes

[dimkr]

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