Puppy Linux Forum and its offering to users

[wiak]

I believe they refer to themselves as 'stewards'.

I made up that designation so I can refer to a group of people in one statement. Think of it as a pointer to an array of the actual values.

Pretty nifty I say........

No wish to take away credit for that rockedge... but I think Puppy dev team at woof-CE have designated themselves as stewards for years.

I'm away for my daily coffee now, and many of you will be near sleep-time... I better now get back to work (meaning hobby pursuits or family matters) once my coffee drinking is complete.

[wiak]

Of course beaches are fine things, too

Last comment for now being that above is exactly what I'm actually interested and working towards right now - moving to the beach...

[vtpup]

Fair enough Wiak, I'm sure lots of people don't want to try to define it. Maybe I should take this to another thread, since I realize this one does have as a topic "Puppy Linux Forum and its offering to users". I do like and use Puppy Linux daily, and am interested in defining what it is, and for the record, just as personal opinion, I don't have any problem at all with your OS here, defined as you do, as not a Puppy Linux.

[rockedge]

@wiak No back road to fame and fortune for me I see. I prefer to think my efforts to keep these forums operating is useful. If I stop I'd question why I am providing the services?

Tracking down since last night why the database server is throwing errors. So I'm just not following what the definition of whatever is.

[vtpup]

Rockedge, your operating these forums is more than useful! It makes entire branches of Linux alive. It empowers people who cannot afford new equipment every year. It provides communication between engaged minds across continents, across backgrounds and across all capabilities. It encourages new thinking. It allows dissent, accord, records and preserves past achievements, renews, reformulates. and invents. That's just part of it. Thank you for allowing this space on the planet.

[wiak]

Fair enough Wiak, I'm sure lots of people don't want to try to define it. Maybe I should take this to another thread, since I realize this one does have as a topic "Puppy Linux Forum and its offering to users". I do like and use Puppy Linux daily, and am interested in defining what it is, and for the record, just as personal opinion, I don't have any problem at all with your OS here, defined as you do, as not a Puppy Linux.

In Cafe drinking the coffee... using my given to me fancy Samsung phone I rarely use being often unreachable via mobile...

Actually I don't consider me really having an OS of my own, just a build system and initrd. Yes, I've dabbled at building distro or two with it, but on the whole rockedge has done more distro creation with it via his addon build plugs than I have. Hence I have nothing myself to tell Distrowatch!

[Grey]

what we think Puppy is..

If someone finds the answer, don't forget to let us know. Because now I don't know the answer

moving to the beach...

I would like to say that I will go to the forest (more precisely, the shelterbelt), but no... It's cold nights now and I'm afraid to freeze my eggs

[bigpup]

The question was asked in this topic.

What is Puppy Linux?

The web site:
https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/
Gives you the answer, if you read it and the FAQ section.

Rockedge is the only one that can change the forum.
All you can do is voice your ideas for him to consider.

[wiak]

Rockedge is the only one that can change the forum.
All you can do is voice your ideas for him to consider.

Well not true in technical reality. I also have full founding admin rights (you may forget or not know that FirstRib/Weedog was the only distro that first moved its discussion threads onto this new forum - long time before Puppy itself, to support rockedge, who as it happens already did a lot of development work for WeeDog). Was only distro discussed on here for a while, and could have taken any space wanted - these founding admin rights were thus granted to me by rockedge from the start.

Indeed I was given more of a free hand than you realise - not a thing I couldn't or can't do, a section I can't rename or move - a member I could not throw out because they had an opposing view to mine, but I prefer to avoid the exercise of petty power. But also I find forum juggling a thankless and even painful job - I also did not support the idea of having a special 'admin' colour or a private Admin/Moderators discussion area - my wish was to continue with my developments and admin just as a backup for rockedge, and to arrange my own material (which unfortunately Puppy-centric moderators sometimes moved!). But otherwise just to operate as a normal forum member with no 'special color or medals to show'. And most of all, despite having a strong opinion regarding what makes this forum more interesting than other forcibly single-distro discussion forums, I prefer to test the air regularly and leave those who say nothing to the dictates of those who continue to live in the past - despite the error in judgement I feel they make.

Poor rockedge, I leave big forum organisation decisions up to him, knowing what he would like to do, but not enough voices asking for radical change. Someone, I thought it was amethyst, once asked if others were also becoming bored on the forum. Depends if you like the same old faces, who dwindle in number and breadth of mind, or not. Even BarryK kind of moved on from old Puppy, which was his distro, but that's all I can say about that: its a distro... and those appointed to take it over have pretty much no presence on this forum, and really don't do much with it up at its remaining woof-CE github site nowadays either as far as I see - except really dimkr who does a lot up there and is close to being the last man standing (though peebee at github a bit too, but not so dominant there I'd say - but VoidPup looks pretty good to me). Maybe the domain should be passed over to dimkr and then you can support his neo-Pups?

As far as this forum is concerned, bearing in mind its beginnings, another possibility if Puppy fans are too greedy for discussion space here or artificially putting old Pup on a pedestal above all other distro development work, that naturally occurs as Linux and technology generally evolves, would be to give them back their domain (to pay for themselves) and get them to make their own forum for the old guys and low level of activity occurring under that banner nowadays anyway. Better to have a more flexible and innovative outlook that cares more about active development, the wishes of members, and ideas and collaboration. Puppy dev team members have long history of pretty much turning up their noses at collaboration with newer forum distro projects and build systems - been a few exceptions, but most of these had left using Puppy much. Maybe neither forum would have much success in todays world, but at least a collaborative set of people are a pleasure to work with and talk to, than the constant barrage of only-Puppy-exists type propaganda that the Puppy-oriented moderators push all the time - an awful attitude they have - despite devs from the other forum distros discussed here all regularly contributing nice utilities for the Pup fans to use.

Long story short: so if you are fed up with too much Puppy propaganda and too much segregation, feel free to tell me and I'll discuss ideas to change matters with rockedge and try and make this a place for every members interests here and out you go if you push the one-distro-rules type of nonsense. Easy enough to become benevolent dictators - nothing to lose way things are going anyway - just old tea dregs.

[wiak]

I think of two choices only:

1. Honour this forum for the community forum it is, in which case Puppy as one of the distros on it gets its sub-forum place beside the other distros such as FatDog, the DebianDogs, EasyOS, WeeDog and so on, and title of forum becomes Kennel Linux Discussion Forum and re-organised over time to make that community work better. A community distro such as KLV-Airedale should not, for example, be buried under Advanced Topics -> Puppy Derivatives -> Specialized. Not only is it not an advanced topic... no beginner or normal visitors to this forum are likely to go there. Kennel Linux provides a proper community-oriented umbrella distro release as well as the individual fan-based distros otherwise discussed on this forum. Any distro that is not happy being in that proper shared Kennel space-wise can be asked to take its threads elsewhere, be that Puppy Linux, Debian Dog, EasyOS, FatDog, WeeDog or whoever.

2. Agree to all move to individual distro discussion forums. Up to rockedge which distro he decides to house on his resources.

Domain names are cheap to buy - that isn't important per se. Web hosts cost though.

Let's not waste further overall forum community effort in terms of definition of any one distro - I don't often use Puppy Linux, for example - it is up to its own fan base to define their own distro (if they want to) and not a requirement of membership of this forum. That 'definition' effort is somewhat a waste of time though, since that particular distro claims to use the principle of do-acracy, and result of what anyone makes is not community-controlled and thus not able to be defined since can be anything 'done'.

[wiak]

We tend to use the meme of a box or a cube to represent a controlled environment where people feel safe and everything is familiar.

Most distros involve control - and adopt forum discussion communities that involve rules to force their members to stay inside their control box, and object to anything different done outside that box (referring to them as some sub-species - "Dogs" in a way) citing the word 'anarchy' in terms of the uncontrollable evil, when really 'innovation' is the most positive occurrence in any research or development.

However, innovation involves looking outside the box, but not many distro's do that, and certainly not many forum discussion groups. This forum has tended to support the do-ocracy concept (but not in an organisation sense - too much resistance from those who want 'Purity'), but the distro it is currently named after, being Puppy Linux, tends to resist that do-ocracy principle big time unless that 'done' effort is under strict control - hence terminology like pure-Puppy - and 'built only via woof-CE'.

The forum members however have long adopted a more genuine principle of do-ocracy because forum leadership was never the same as Puppy leadership, so innovation has been allowed to occur outside-of -the-box. That's what made it a better forum than that of most other control-freak-managed distros.

Despite the new forum having slightly better organisation, unfortunately the control-freak, keep everything in a controlled box via rules, tendencies have increased due to the opinions and continuing attitudes of some of the forum's moderators. It is not thus such a good and open forum discussion place at this time at least.

[Grey]

citing the word 'anarchy'

As a person whose country has officially celebrated the revolution for more than 70 years, and then began to call it a coup and the overthrow of the authorities - I understand you

'built only via woof-CE'.

By the way, who wrote the rules? Is it possible now to ask this person what he thinks today?

[williwaw]

I also have full founding admin rights.....
nothing to lose way things are going anyway...

"Honour this forum for the community forum it is" seems to be a practical choice. Would you be kind enough to show us your preferred arrangement of the home page ?

[Clarity]

Hi @williwaw

Since the Forum is a Bulletin Board, are you referring to a home page for this Bulletin Board OR for the Puppy Linux Webpage?

Curious

[wiak]

I also have full founding admin rights.....
nothing to lose way things are going anyway...

"Honour this forum for the community forum it is" seems to be a practical choice. Would you be kind enough to show us your preferred arrangement of the home page ?

I've pretty much already described it, as a starting position, but without suddenly implementing it. Basically, where you see the word 'Puppy', which is just one distro after all, substitute the word 'Kennel' whilst getting rid of 'Derived' since that becomes meaningless and impossible to define.
Create a new group line 'Puppy' in 'forum' section where Dog house, EasyOS, WeeDog, FatDog, and Dog Incubator are. The moderator of that Puppy bit can be the likes of dimkr, bigpup, Wiz97, Flash or any other Puppy-only fan they choose - their area moderator choice, like all distros, is up to themselves and no business or concern of mine. The then much larger Kennel areas can then be collaboratively shared by all and only neutral forum members assigned to moderate that.

No distro gets any additional area outside of that structure, which of can be developed over time as a managable structure of course. Each distro has or can have its own actual dev and web promotion sites they can link to, but that is up to themselves.

EDIT: removed any suggestion of alternative domain since would cause a lot of work and would take time for Bots to re-index the place for web search ranking (SEO and so on).

[Clarity]

HOW should this community describes itself in a summary paragraph, now?

Examples from Distrowatch for some ideas; each of the following describes their offering:
Ubuntu

Ubuntu is a complete desktop Linux operating system, freely available with both community and professional support. The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu Manifesto: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customise and alter their software in whatever way they see fit. "Ubuntu" is an ancient African word, meaning "humanity to others". The Ubuntu distribution brings the spirit of Ubuntu to the software world.

Debian

The Debian Project is an association of individuals who have made common cause to create a free operating system. This operating system is called Debian. Debian systems currently use the Linux kernel. Linux is a completely free piece of software started by Linus Torvalds and supported by thousands of programmers worldwide. Of course, the thing that people want is application software: programs to help them get what they want to do done, from editing documents to running a business to playing games to writing more software. Debian comes with over 50,000 packages (precompiled software that is bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine) - all of it free. It's a bit like a tower. At the base is the kernel. On top of that are all the basic tools. Next is all the software that you run on the computer. At the top of the tower is Debian

Fedora

Fedora Linux contains software distributed under a free and open-source license and aims to be on the leading edge of such technologies. Fedora has a reputation for focusing on innovation, integrating new technologies early on and working closely with upstream Linux communities. The default desktop in Fedora Linux is the GNOME desktop environment and the default interface is the GNOME Shell. Other desktop environments, including KDE, Xfce, LXDE, MATE and Cinnamon, are available. The Fedora project also distributes custom variations of Fedora called Fedora spins. These are built with specific sets of software packages, offering alternative desktop environments or targeting specific interests such as gaming, security, design, scientific computing and robotics.

Hope this helps a little

[dimkr]

and those appointed to take it over have pretty much no presence on this forum, and really don't do much with it up at its remaining woof-CE github site nowadays either as far as I see - except really dimkr who does a lot up there and is close to being the last man standing (though peebee at github a bit too, but not so dominant there I'd say - but VoidPup looks pretty good to me). Maybe the domain should be passed over to dimkr and then you can support his neo-Pups?

1. VoidPup is not built with woof-CE as-is, but using a private fork (violation of GPL). Same for Fossapup and predecessors. Most woof-CE developers copy parts from woof-CE, add some secret sauce and build stuff without contributing back, or choose what to contribute.
2. Please keep me out of this separatist campaign.

[dogcat]

HOW should this community describes itself in a summary paragraph, now?

Until the url is actually changed from puppylinux.com to whatever.com it should be described as the puppy linux forum, puppy linux is what draws most people to this web site. I wonder what the new url should be?

[mikeslr]

What's in a name? Reputation and, to some extent, the ease to identify one among myriads.

I have no problem with the name 'Puppy Linux Discussion Forum'. Plugging that phrase into google will provide the link to this Forum as the 1st choice; while 'puppy linux' will suggest https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/ as its first choice.

I can appreciate that among 'purists' Puppy Linux only means woof-built, those 'puppy OSes' which pre-dated woof, and remasters of those. From its inception THIS Forum has never been that chauvinistic. It has provided a home for the discussion of small, portable Linux operating systems: Puppys by the foregoing definition, DebianDogs, Woof-built variants such as EasyOS and FatDog, and recently weedog'd operating systems.

I suggest leaving well-enough alone. A significant change would result in a hurdle to anyone (not already aware of the Forum) finding it while/after reading any of the thousands of posts elsewhere on the Web.

Change the noun 'car' to, say, 'glimixfurger'; use it in a sentence --"He trying to get a ding out of his glimixfurger." -- and those 'not in the know', won't have a clue as to what's taking place. Some may get strange ideas.

But if a name-change is to be undertaken, how about one which encompasses what we all work on, while giving a nod to the past:

portable_linux_kennel.com

or

compact_linux_kennel.com

If desired, substitute, .net, .info, .org .WHATEVER for .com

[rockedge]

I am leaving pretty much everything as is. Not sacrificing excellent search engine ranking and the over a decade of recognition changing something that anyone who comes here already knows...this is where the good "frugal", "portable", fast (relatively stable) OS's reside.

It's the back of the school bus, where the cool kids hang out

Changing names, domains and url's is much easier said, than done.

[wiak]

That's fine and good.

I had already moved my only remaining comment to existing WeeDog forum, and had nothing further to say on the matter on this forum.

https://weedoglinux.rockedge.org/viewto ... p=394#p394

[mikewalsh]

It's the back of the school bus, where the cool kids hang out

^^^+1. Love it. Very apt (sic).

Mike.

[rockedge]

@wiak After the last few days battling to keep this all online behind the scenes (so far successfully) meanwhile I've looked into whole sale name changes and addition of domains. It can be done but will take a whole lot of effort on my part. Which sounds like I'm getting the short end of the stick somehow here and being punished for something.

my motivation to do any of that is at a low low. I was hoping for a different outcome. Starting all over again working out cookie settings and blahblahblah configurations and URL rewrites then debugging it all so it works 90% of the time and all the while answering to the critics.Just that comment above is unsettling to me and I seem to fail to understand. Yes it's fine and good since I'm doing the work carefully.

Oh and now I have to double my workload where before I could keep KLV going and still watch over the forum in one place....bUUUUTTTTTT NOOOOOOOOOOO......not for good ol' rockedge. No sir gotta keep the nose to the grindstone.

[wiak]

No one expecting you to do any of that rockedge. I appreciate the logistic issues and ridiculous amount of work that would have nowadays been involved. Not the outcome I would have preferred either, but no longer under discussion or in my thoughts either, as I indicated in my above post about it prior to what you have now posted anyway. No short stick involved - what provided distro build systems you chose to use were and are your own choice - I just develop, maintain, and contribute, but demand nothing in return.

Of course I publish my own work however I prefer to do so.

What work you take on in putting yourself forward to run any forum is up to you - you choose your own burdens or actions as we all do, me too, which is also nothing anyone else is blamed for - my own short sticks, my own good and bad choices, and blaming no-one else. So relax. You seem to like being admin of this forum for whatever it is you get out of that, so nothing to not be happy about. If you don't like the status you can give it to someone else if anyone wants it more. Up to yourself what you do, nothing to do with me and my own issues needing addressed.

Situations change as time passes and thus have mine. My current home, as we prepare to move, overflows with rubbish (including books and technical junk) my family and I need to deal with it urgently somehow, but it is over-whelming us right now. Matters concerning any distro or forum are no longer of any importance to us at this time, and probably never again really.

[rockedge]

@wiak I understand. We'll keep in touch. Keep stepping forward and you'll get all organized....it looks worse before better......Good Luck!

[mikewalsh]

@rockedge :-

<snip>...After the last few days battling to keep this all online behind the scenes (so far successfully)...</snip>

<snip>...my motivation to do any of that is at a low low...</snip>

Mm. I guessed summat wasn't quite right somewhere along the line. I've never before had to wait for over a minute for a single page to load/refresh...

Is there anything any of us can do to help out, Erik? There's a whole bunch of us here, willing to help in any way, however small. (The clue's in the name, y'know; "community" forum..?) Nobody is expecting you to do absolutely everything; "many hands make light work...", etc.

(And I can identify with you when say your motivation just isn't there. I'm slowly finding that the enthusiasm with which I've attacked so many of my projects here on the Forum is beginning to wane, now I'm into the beginning of my seventh decade... *shakes head wryly*)

You're NOT alone, mate!

Mike.

[wiak]

beginning of my seventh decade

Unfortunately time not only flies faster but health issues exponentially increase. Stay young in approach no matter the numeric truth since couch potato moves accelerate decline I feel. Hence, at end of seventh decade I lie to myself that I feel and remain young. I think I, including my brain, am young and won't revise that assessment for at least ten years or until one of my arms falls off or something... Better not to focus on our ages, despite the reality, because statements to the effect we are no longer able to do something tends to become self-fulfilling prophesies. That's part of the reason I probably appear obstinate in my desire not for comfortable stability, but instead for regular update and sometimes revolutionary change. I will however add nothing more about any monarchy...

[rockedge]

@mikewalsh We still have it! Where there is shadow there must be light.

Once the the politics aside, I can get back to projects like adding a reliable persistence mode for KLV-Airedale running on FAT32 or NTFS partitions. RIght there tri-booting KLV-Airedale along side Window 11 and Puppy Linux

I am much closer to a better Zoneminder installer for Puppy Linux's and finally can produce each piece of the server and ZM as separate modular PET files.

Tested a script I found that will install Zoneminder on a DebianDog that worked.

I think my script that installs Zoneminder on Void Linux based distros of FirstRib or KLV design will also install ZM on VoidPup's!
That will be a cool test if it will work........

I'm an even 60....@wiak you guys aren't that old...70 is the new 50

[cobaka]

Evening all and "woof":

Have followed this thread (what Puppy Linux offers) with interest. I will begin by noting what others wrote:

<Clarity>

For the many who have been around awhile, we have no problem in understanding [the forum/Puppy]. But for new users, whether experienced in Linux or not, the forum could present a daunting picture with all of the offerings available.

Me: Clarity is writing about those who see any OS as 'the glue' that allows them to use a browser/word-processor/communication tool. By that I mean the average person who wants to collect e-mail, but has no interest in whether "the machine" behind the mail system or web-browser is a Puppy or a MS Window. That's 95% of the population.

<Clarity>

I have thought a little in the past of this, but, am at a loss in how this info is to get to NEW people to this forum.

Me: Right on and needs no further comment.

<geo_c> "To me [...] the "puppy brand" [is] a community of people who think a little outside the box and incorporate the total knowledge contributed by the forum members."
Me: Yes, but I think Clarity is interested in "non-geek" types.

<vtpup>

"I think it's difficult to talk about anything without a commonly agreed definition of what that thing is. Or, more accurately, it's easy to talk about something undefined, but meaningless to do so. It provides fuel for endless debate, because no conclusion can ever be reached."

Me: see below

<@backi>

The only Thing which counts for me is Functionality.....that those "Things" are doing their "Job" as expected.

Me: I'm mostly wid ya bro, although I do dabble a little. I learned a little about bash here. I got some help understanding C here. I got a lot of help here from @bigpup when I couldn't quite get an installation to work. Yeah, thanks bigPup.

<@Clarity>

This post was opened as a request for thought on how to improve forum distro selections, identification, and navigation. ... mostly a NAVIGATOR for the forums' varied offering.

Yeah, and most people missed that point, Clarity.

<@vtpup>

Rockedge, your operating these forums is more than useful! It makes entire branches of Linux alive. It empowers people who cannot afford new equipment every year. It provides communication between engaged minds across continents, across backgrounds and across all capabilities. It encourages new thinking. It allows dissent, accord, records and preserves past achievements, renews, reformulates. and invents. That's just part of it. Thank you for allowing this space on the planet.

Me: Well, without the forum, most of the things I wanted to do/needed to do simply wouldn't be possible.

I write as an "outsider" - some-one who had somewhat to do with microprocessors in (gasp) the 80s and 1990s but who knows little about modern operating systems. That's what I'm "not". I abandoned Windows 5 or 6 years ago; since then Puppy Linux has been my only OS. My principal interest is a 3-way split. (1) Common communication: e-mail, conferencing, writing (ie using a text editor & word processor) (2) Technical, i.e. nearly a GiB of datasheets and technical articles. I got a rudimentary knowledge of 'bash'/C/assembly language using Puppy Linux (didn't do that (so much) with Windows) (3) Web "browsing" - banking (if you call that browsing), transport time-tables, internet (general+you-tube+AM radio). Have no interest in games. That's my direct use of Puppy Linux.

I have been careful to avoid tying myself to any OS; IBM PS2 is a reason to avoid a specific OS. Moving to Linux I 'lost' the use of a CAD drawing system; I understand there are ways of restoring this but I haven't done that yet.

I try to promote Puppy Linux as much as possible. I install it on 'old boxes' and give them away. People say, "Wow, that's fast". I spend an hour or so showing them where various 'things' live: If you want a word-processor, then look in applications -> documents. If you need a browser (every-one does) then look in applications -> internet -> download. Need a file manager? Use ROX. You get the idea. I think Clarity's point is that the forum could be a more useful to 'non-Puppy' types if (somehow) it was .... maybe more accessible/indexed/something important I can't describe.

I hope Puppy Linux does more than survive. I hope it prospers. That's the reason for this posting. Now some important observations. Yes, important. This forum, and the contribution of 'the crew' is as important as Puppy Linux itself. The fabulous capability to install Puppy Linux to various media (and the simplicity of the process) is astonishing. Some 15 years ago I installed Windows to various desktop PCs; compared with that process installing Puppy Linux is a piece of cake. I like the way The Puppy does a lot with minimal resources. I like the way Puppy Linux can 'rescue' (completely) a 15 y.o. laptop from the bin. In 15 or 20 years time a changed climate will force us humans to be more frugal.

The (any functional) browser is as important as whatever OS.

Setting out a spec for Puppy Linux? To a degree @bigpup pointed (generally) to the essential features of Puppy Linux. However, there are specific design points used to implement a "Puppy Package". A good developer might build another apparently similar Puppy but with a different internal layout. The difference between two apparently similar systems would be impossible to manage. BigPup correctly pointed to what Puppy is now, but others are interested in what Puppy will be 10 years in the future. This is where life (or this discussion) becomes interesting. I can say nothing about the detail but the following points must be understood. Without development Puppy Linux will stay in the back-yard it presently inhabits. In 5-10-15 years Puppy will die if it remains static. The value of a spec (or design vision) is that it brings unity and cohesion. Without an underlying philosophy (and how it should be implemented) Puppy Linux will disintegrate. The trick is to walk both sides of the road at the same time.

But all Clarity wanted was a means of making this forum more accessible to 'non-technical' Puppians. At least, that's how I read his postings. @Clarity has a point.

Lotta words! wow!
Собака

[backi]

The whole Puppy Linux Forum/Concept (surviving from the Help and Generosity of Rockedge and all those other unnamed Members,Developers and Users) ....despite all (constructive) "Differences" ....are/is surely a top Candidate(s) for the (yet not founded) LINUX HALL OF FAME.

Maybe the "Future" will show this more clearly.
Very helpful People here to meet.

Many Thanks (once more) to everyone maintaining,developing,participating,supporting and commenting here on the Forum.

Maybe it is some Kind of (unvisible/unknown) "Dog Spirit/ Goddess" (something like a "Totem") which protects and keeps the whole Puppy Community somehow "glued" together.

ummm....Just Kidding.

Keep on rocking and.....

Peace on Earth.