Observations conc. Vanillaupup-22,04,39

[oui]

Hi

I don't like it at all:

1/ it includes the enemy menu from users not living in Africa where you have to scroll and scroll and scroll until you get the right time place out the sight of Ubuntu!
2/ no gparted (exxon did also observe it in his essay concerning Vanillapup)
3/ no media, nothing but the (in my eyes non puppy) firefox. what do now the old users having their mails and mail management on Seamonkey? What do now the old users having her work accustom to use Composer (Barry Kauler for ex.! He did explain on his page that he uses only Composer and his own site administration software, Composer ist part of this system, software that he proposes generously to all?)

If there is no media, it can, also exactly so, be no browser at starting point (you MUST so or so remaster!).

The greeting little windows are ridiculous with the long scroll window for localization or time. Why that 19 y after the begin of Puppy! All user know that there is a menu and in the main selection of the menu an item "System" for such settings! Greeting and quitting Windows are completely ridiculous all: People have no time to spend for such matters. They are only decoration for the programmer itself (it was not so initially! You must remember: Puppy before 1.0 and a part of Puppy 1.x did not have ways to save some data! The greeting windows was an information concerning the great change and how to do...)

And I did miss more compared with the old Puppy out the time where it was managed by Barry Kauler itself. The communications tools are to old or not available. We live in the time where zoom and skype become a very great importance! Pls look at old Puppy version, I recommend 1.9 especially the one including OO with size only 99 MB you will see what people need!

[Sofiya]

Hi

Sir, yes, you are completely lazy, but you yourself can’t put the program on as a program - and secondly, it says in black and white that the puppy is without extra ruches and plushies

[dimkr]

1/ it includes the enemy menu from users not living in Africa where you have to scroll and scroll and scroll until you get the right time place out the sight of Ubuntu!

I'm sorry, but I don't understand. This looks like the output of Google Translate.

2/ no gparted (exxon did also observe it in his essay concerning Vanillapup)

apt install gparted

3/ no media, nothing but the (in my eyes non puppy) firefox. what do now the old users having their mails and mail management on Seamonkey?

If there is a preinstalled browsers, people complain because it's not the browser they want. If there's no preinstalled browser, people complain and want some browsers.

I chose to include Netsurf, as a simple browser you can use to install the browser of your choice.

You must remember: Puppy before 1.0 and a part of Puppy 1.x did not have ways to save some data! The greeting windows was an information concerning the great change and how to do...)

It's been a while since Puppy 1.x, it's reasonable to expect things to change, and the Vanilla Upup topic contains a long list of features.

Pls look at old Puppy version, I recommend 1.9 especially the one including OO with size only 99 MB you will see what people need!

The Microsoft Edge executable is 218M these days, and you want to fit an entire operating system plus a browser in 99 MB.

[rockedge]

@dimkr I can attest to that! At the moment KLV-Airedale-beta16 ISO is 570 M, with the just a few apps and Firefox included. Any smaller means a lot more the user can choose to install on their own.......more customized and personalized. As long as it is relatively easy for a user to install the packages they'll need or enjoy it seems to me the job the developer is doing is a good one.

The early Puppy's were exactly that. A great foundation or better yet, like a model airplane kit. All the pieces and instructions are there so now build it. As Puppy evolved more is pre-built or sub-assembled in the base ISO or IMG.
It is one way or the other, lots of features pre-built and included and some size that goes along with that....or a solid kit type build, small and featureless, a foundation to build a custom system from. A unique personalized version.

I like the Vanillaupup series because of the fantastic potential to build this system out to something that will rival any distro in speed and utility. Just the way I want to, for bigger or smaller tasks and or fun.

You want small go with Tiny Core. You want small-"ish" but can rivial any distro other than those running in the latest CRAY Super computers, go with a ready to be anything Vanillaupup, WDL,KLV,and the entire range of Puppy Linux distros.

Bottom line ----- I follow these developments keenly because I'll incorporate the ideas and actual code at times directly into projects I like to work on. Hence the name "Kennel Linux" which is a real mutt, crossbred with pretty much all the distro's in the "Kennel".

The latest KLV-Airedale is 1.6 GiB uncompressed. (Kennel Linux Void)

[rockedge]

My major test of a distro is to install Zoneminder on it. Measured in: 1. it works 2. can a typical user install it? 3. can ZM be maintained?

Since Zoneminder is developed on Ubuntu then Fedora and Centos systems, Vanillaupup is a great candidate, it's using the APT package manager natively. Should make installing such a complex package easier for the typical user.

[fredx181]

@oui As Bob Dylan sung: The Times They Are A-Changin'

[oui]

Hm!

Puppy where a concept: small but complete and efficient.

And, today? A bladder for a few software?

Was does the Seamonkey users including BK? They have to go to a completely other distro, complete this one, named easyPup or easyOS ...

ok!

but

consternation!

[oui]

Hi

Sir, yes, you are completely lazy, but you yourself can’t put the program on as a program - and secondly, it says in black and white that the puppy is without extra ruches and plushies

I don't know what you did do but those are not my words!

please, stay CORRECT!

[rockedge]

@oui Seamonkey itself is not keeping pace with what web designers are making. Go talk to those guys making their pages so script/media heavy.

[oui]

@oui Seamonkey itself is not keeping pace with what web designers are making. Go talk to those guys making their pages so script/media heavy.

THE ONLY ONE BROWSER for real old Puppy user is seamonkey or an invitation to download a browser as wished! If new developers have an other opinion, the Puppy time is gone, the Puppy community is away, all is crashed...

[dimkr]

Puppy where a concept: small but complete and efficient.

You'll need to update your expectations. You want a huge pile of software AND small size AND efficiency.

Vanilla Upup uses zstd compression in the name of efficiency, at the cost of increased size. It doesn't include a big browser to reduce size. It switches from X.Org to Xwayland to increase efficiency, but that breaks some old software. And it doesn't have old GTK+ 2 applications to reduce size and increase efficiency, a the cost of "completeness".

You can't have all three.

(Maybe Vanilla Dpup is a better fit for your requirements, because it includes Firefox.)

[oui]

Puppy users, please,

THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY PUPPY ANY MORE: all pretender to be a puppy are today fat like an adult dinosaur.

pls try yourself to build real Puppy's as Barry Kauler itself did build as long he did command this community!

I propose a name gender: Monkey's to remember to Seamonkey our browser-SUITE! Creates pls desertmonkey's, crememonkey's, conquerantmonkey's, lovemonkey's, biblemonkey's, but

MONKEYś !

[oui]

Puppy where a concept: small but complete and efficient.

You'll need to update your expectations. You want a huge pile of software AND small size AND efficiency.

Vanilla Upup uses zstd compression in the name of efficiency, at the cost of increased size. It doesn't include a big browser to reduce size. It switches from X.Org to Xwayland to increase efficiency, but that breaks some old software. And it doesn't have old GTK+ 2 applications to reduce size and increase efficiency, a the cost of "completeness".

You can't have all three.

(Maybe Vanilla Dpup is a better fit for your requirements, because it includes Firefox.)

in case of completeness! are you really top today? in case of completeness I would take redhat prof or suse prof! or openSuse etc.

[rockedge]

@oui

I first released KLV with no browser at all. up to the user to install something they liked......
there was immediate stress.....complaints about no browser included...so to make it easy I added Firefox. For me it would be just fine supplying nothing. You have the choice of everything.

I have a version that does just that....no X server, nothing but a terminal, mc and a package manager. You want Xorg or maybe Wayland? go ahead and install it...you want audio? pick a system and install it.....you want a browser..install it.....you get the picture. Once there were those who said horse and carriage would never be replaced by those automobiles.......

Ubuntu, Debian, Centos, Fedora, Void Linux, anything RedHat really have all the marbles.....no problems........and then there is always Windows 10 or 11..........

Always those Berkley variants like OpenBSD.....can be all it can be........

[oui]

I, for my daily use, continue to use each day a lot of times the best Puppy even seen

archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_Dpup_Buster from josejp24 (thank you again josejp24! I am sorry, that our community is so ungrateful!)

because the new ones I did try (I did not try all) are only pure

concession!

[wiak]

@oui Seamonkey itself is not keeping pace with what web designers are making. Go talk to those guys making their pages so script/media heavy.

THE ONLY ONE BROWSER for real old Puppy user is seamonkey or an invitation to download a browser as wished! If new developers have an other opinion, the Puppy time is gone, the Puppy community is away, all is crashed...

I don't entirely understand the negativity. I doubt most want to use seamonkey nowadays. Nothing against it; it is attractive because provides email support and composer of course. But like rockedge said, people been complaining when lesser browser included yet if you want smallish distro, seamonkey won't achieve that nowadays either. BKs easyOS was 750MB download last time I looked. So I think dimkr is correct to leave main browser choice up to user; I don't myself want seamonkey though loved it years ago.

You don't seem to get the point that great package management makes it simple to add browser or any app. The main job for developer is to make the underlying distro as user- friendly polished as they can IMO and to keep it relevant to today's technology. Browser can be quick installed anytime; seamonkey, whatever; if you want special one you should be asking mikewalsh to provide sfs add on - surely that is one modern Puppy way if you can't find package via package manager or, for some reason, don't like the version pkg manager (apt/synaptics) gives you.

Personally I nearly always use apt or Synaptic gui since packages usually all guaranteed working and stable, but sfs variants are handy to share if using several different pups. Caveat is that old puppy dir structure is incompatible with the way most distros of today organize things.

Software has increased in size, but even ten year old machines have plenty of storage and cpu resources. RAM issues are to do with website complexity, not Puppy choices, though running from RAM uses up some precious RAM so the likes of zram is helpful. Personally, I dont run from RAM cos ssd drives are fast anyway, and Linux cache tends to do a good job keeping regularly used code in RAM anyway.

VanillaUpup gives you lots of choice. One of the best Pups for a while; fossapup and older becoming problematic museum pieces sooner rather than later because technology is rapidly forging ahead, whether we like it or not. But computer power is really becoming huge and much faster than any software bloat; soon 16GB RAM will be default; maybe more, yet laptops consume far less energy than in the old pentium 2, 3, or 4 days. Waste of money in annual electricity cost using power-hungry old machines that need ancient pups; those who do could instead buy newer machines, save money, not worry about distro download size (really unimportant) and reduce pollution of planet Earth.

Yes it is still possible to build a downloadable 100MB distro, or smaller like Slitaz, which is terribly out of date now, or tiny core Linux, which is definitely limiting so probably just for masochistic hobby fun; do you really want Puppy to be a toy distro of years ago capability - soon no-one would use it at all in that case. Some really nice, efficient, user-friendly distros out there nowadays. Calling for old type Puppy is calling for a distro hardly anyone would adopt as there desktop today. Nowadays we need 300 to say 500MB to provide sufficient facility, though making browser choice optional at least keeps initial download size relatively small ( though Fibre broadband doesn't make that really necessary - dialup days are over...).

The clever and attractive point of difference with all distros discussed on this forum is the neat and versatility of the many often gui frontend utility apps provided to help maintain and customize your system, and of course its continuing flexible frugal install abilities. Wayland and pipewire and so on will result in a lot of new variants though, and it is impossible to bury heads in sand and expect any one to keep using yesterday's distro designs. Try developing your own distro build system, rather than use someone else's attempts in this ever-advancing technological environment. Do you have a team of one thousand multi-skilled developers? it is a big never-ending job; nostalgia helps no-one in the end.

[retiredt00]

Though I’m not sure I fully understand, I think uoi has a point regarding the change in direction.

Before Vanilla pups, in a fresh puppy most users could do most things without the need of anything else. Browse, e-mail, chat, play music and video, see pictures, work with documents, spreadsheets and images etc. Not many user need zonemider, run databases or work with R and python.
However I think that now days all these casual users have moved to tablets and phones, so whoever is left around here is a tinkerer rather than the “windows refugee” that original puppies were intended for.

So uoi is right that the old puppy and old puppy users is no more.
If the spartan core philosophy is the way to go I’m not the one to tell.
But I think that in the absence of an “software center” that other distributions use, trying to figure out what you need from the cryptic package names or the dozens of options that apt/synaptics provide for “browser” or “email”, can be discouraging for the linux non-proficient.
I would think that a complete U/Dpup where big/heavy/biased applications are in different SFSs, could satisfy both the tinkerers and the casual users. The former can either change of eliminate altogether these SFSs and the rest just use as is to go about their everyday computer needs.

[amethyst]

Strange rant. He goes on about Seamonkey but at the same time says DPupBuster is his favouriter disribution. Now, I have DpupBuster and the builtin browser is Firefox not Seamonkey. Also that particular distribution does not have all the original uppy applications, for instance Abiword and Gnumeri are not built-in. His favourite Puppy is also quite large in size.

[dimkr]

His favourite Puppy is also quite large in size.

Yet, when he tries a much newer but relatively small (~350 MB) Puppy, he expects it to be more "full-featured".

[oui]

Strange rant. He goes on about Seamonkey but at the same time says DPupBuster is his favouriter disribution. Now, I have DpupBuster and the builtin browser is Firefox not Seamonkey. Also that particular distribution does not have all the original uppy applications, for instance Abiword and Gnumeri are not built-in. His favourite Puppy is also quite large in size.

this is simply completely wrong amethyst! because of your above information, i did re download the Iso from site of josejp24 at sourceforge.net (I did use only my last remasters and did erase the orignal). the only 450 MB original iso from josejp24 with xfce4, gimp and pluseaudio !!! 32 bit includes both

- Seamonkey 2.53.3
- install web browser

and at the site, you will find a lot of super software like seamonkey.pet and see please yourself, it is the best:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dpup/files/64bit/

https://sourceforge.net/projects/dpup/files/32bit/

especially for other Puppyists because you information is terribly wrong and partisan...

witch Puppy' s offers a so extreme interesting choice of super package especially for that release of distro?

Telegram-1.7.10-x86_64.pet

kdenlive-19.08.0-dpupbuster64.sfs

softmaker_freeoffice_x86_64-2018_971-01.pet

32bit_compatibilty_dpupbuster64.sfs

opera_stable-67.0.3575.97.pet

zoom-5.1.412382.0614.pet

wine64-5.4_v5.4.pet

skypeforlinux_64-8.67.0.96-x86_64.pet

Midori-1.1.3-x86_64.pet

brave_browser_nightly_user_Root-1.20.13-x86_64.pet

PlayOnLinux-4.3.4_dpup.pet

etc etc ...

[amethyst]

@oui I have both dpupbuster64-8.0.0-uefi-RC-1-07092019.iso (387MB) and dpupbuster-32bits-PAE-8.0.0-uefi-beta3_29092019.iso (421MB). Both of them have Firefox builtin and no Seamonkey. So unless he changed to Seamonkey for the final releases I don't know. Seamonkey is good but always seem a bit behind the times compared to Palemoon for example.

[geo_c]

Oddly, everything I've learned from reading this thread of @oui's has caused me to want to boot up my SG2D copy of vanilla pup and give it a thorough whirl. It sounds great!

[bert07]

@oui, if you want a different browser than provided, you can always download the tarball of the browser you want, extract it to the /opt folder en edit the default brower file /usr/local/bin/defaultbrowser and edit the browser line with something like this:

exec /opt/seamonkey/seamonkey %U

Than you have your default browser of your choose.